| paulb |
I've been thinking of starting a thread on this topic for a while. I'm looking for something cheap, easy to use, cheap, simple, (did I mention cheap), and reasonably versatile.
Here's excerpts from another thread. I thought I should start a new one to give it more visibility:
GRollins:| quote: | I once suggested that we all standardize on software (just not this program) so that we'd all be able to share files, but it turned out that there were about a dozen programs out there, with no more than two or three people using each one. Besides, I want this set up so that people who don't have any software at all can print this and use it--say JPG or something of that nature.
Is there a board program out there that will export a clean JPG or GIF file? At this point, it looks as though it would be more efficient time-wise to just key the art in by hand rather than go through this mind-numbing download/read the documentation/cut & try/find out it doesn't work/sulk cycle that I'm in. |
mlloyd1:| quote: | I use CIRCAD trial version from www.holophase.com. It does integrated schematic capture and PCB layout. I don't remember if it exports GIF or JPG, but I have used it to export BMP, which is easily convertible to anything else. I will offer to convert the BMP for you if you go this route.
I beleive the trial version of CIRCAD doesn't output gerber, but does pretty much everything else. Generally, this is OK for me because I make some of my boards myself. To me, the earning curve is smaller than other CAD programs. |
And Weeghel on the headwize site uses ExpressPCB, which is free, but doesn't use their service to make boards:
http://headwize.powerpill.org/ubb/s...days=20&stime=0
Any other ideas? |
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| GRollins |
Thanks, Paul,
Just to clarify, the software I was referring to in the quote above is Ivex Winboard. I've had nothing but trouble with it. The one and only thing in its favor is that they don't have an expiration date on their demo version.
Nasty stuff. Buggy code. Avoid it like the plague. Above all, don't be caught dead paying money for it. If we can come to a consensus on where to go from here, I'll leave it behind without a single regret (except, perhaps, all the time I've wasted on it).
Grey |
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| paulb |
| Let it out, Grey. Let it out. Venting is good. |
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| GRollins |
Grey, mopping sweat from brow with handkerchief:
I feel better now, Doctor Paul. I assume that I should schedule with the receptionist for our usual time next Friday?
Grey |
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| mg16 |
Try Welborne Labs for a $50.00 program called ASSIST. It is very easy to use, and works great. I have done many preamp, crossovers, and other circuits using it with no problems.
mg16 |
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| lohk |
Try another medicine:
http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
The EAGLE Light Edition can be used for free!
Limitations
The following limitations apply to the EAGLE Light Edition in general:
The useable board area is limited to 100_x_80_mm (4_x_3.2_inches).
Only two signal layers can be used (Top and Bottom).
The schematic editor can only create one sheet.
Apart from these three limitiations the EAGLE Light Edition can do anything the Professional Edition can do.
You can even load, view and print drawings that exceed these limits!
The Freeware version of EAGLE Light adds these limitations:
Support is only available via email or through our forum (no fax or phone support).
Use is limited to non-profit applications or evaluation purposes.
Good health !
Klaus
EAGLE Light Edition |
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| Joe Berry |
Of the 3 or 4 capture/layout packages I've tried, my favorite is Easy-PC for Windows. It's nearly as easy to use as PCB Express, but lets you define your own components, schematic symbols, and footprints. The 500-pin version currently costs about US $150.
You can learn more at the Number One Systems web site. |
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| GRollins |
There are several packages out there for Linux (by definition, free). I was running Linux for a time, and had just downloaded two or three when I lost a hard drive, and ended up putting Windows (ugh) on my PC. (Almost as bad a decision as going with Ivex.)
Has anyone tried any programs from the Linux side of the world?
Klaus,
The 4 x 3.2" limitation hurts. My Aleph board is 4.2 x 3.6" for instance, and I have several larger boards.
mg16, Joe,
I'm reluctant to spend any money at all for two reasons. One being that it doesn't mean the program is bug free or that it will do what I want. (I could have spent money for the Ivex code, but it would not have gotten me anything in return except more frustration.) The other is that, being near Christmas, money is limited for me, as I'm sure it is for others.
One more point:
Speak up loud & clear about export abilities, fellas. I've got several boards I'd like to post here (SOZ w/current source, the Aleph boards, and some other stuff I ain't even mentioned yet). Let's try for one of the common image formats if we can get it.
Bonus points if we can get a significant number of the people here on this site using the same program. We're too disorganized at present.
Grey |
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| AudioFreak |
| While we're at it ..... might as well add the need to be able to define custom components to the list. |
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| mg16 |
The Assist component library includes the ability to define custom components. The library itself contains hundreds of semis, resistors, caps,diodes,sockets, etc., but you can easily add your own custom defined parts also.
mg16 |
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| tvi |
I like Proteus Lite from labcentre uk, exports BMP, METAFILE, DXF, EPS.
Attached is a BMP of a my copy of the Hiraga Class A PCB.
439 kb as BMP so I converted it to GIF
The demo has a max size of A4 and 100 pins (unlimited vias)
ARES Lite is the lone PCB package
<a href="http://www.labcenter.co.uk/">Proteus lite</a>
Regards
James |
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| Joe Berry |
Grey,
I understand your reluctance to spend money (esp. at this time) in view of all the freeware available in this category -- all the more so because many of these programs seem to over-promise and under-deliver anyway. Why buy trouble when you can get all you want for free? :)
OTOH, I've wasted lots of time and effort in the past trying to get "free" programs to do what I need. Eventually I would run out of patience and spend the money. At least in the case of Easy-PC, I've had no regrets. There may be other comparable Windows-based products, but Easy-PC was the first I found that was stable, intuitive, reasonably full-featured, and could handle custom components.
It was also "affordable," which for me means that it quickly paid for itself in time saved (I'm self-employed, so this matters to me in ways it may not to others), and did not cost much more than I might spend on a Digi-Key or Mouser parts order.
Having said that, if I could live with its limitations, I'd be very happy using the free download of ExpressPCB. It's the very model of a user-friendly program, IMO.
(BTW, I have no commercial interest in either product.) |
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| paulb |
My criteria for work and hobby are quite different. $150 US (>$225 CDN) is way above what I intended as 'cheap'.
I think what has come closest so far would be ExpressPCB, but don't know about export capabilities (probably minimal, given its raison d'etre).
The link that mlloyd1 gave is a great list, but doesn't seem to give indication of subjective ease of use. Noticed Edwin is on there, I don't recommend it. |
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| GRollins |
Even a list of programs to avoid would be a help...
Grey |
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| jduncan |
| ExpressPCB, although free, requires you to use their fabrication service as you cant export at all. Needless to say this, although not obscenely expensive is more than some other better options that are around....if you did a few pcb's you'd pay for some "cheap" software easily in the fabrication price difference. |
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| GRollins |
Paul,
I hit that link, but didn't see how he did it...
Grey |
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| paulb |
| I'll try emailing him and ask. I was wondering if he got his Szekeres amp working anyway. |
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| scottnixon |
| Have used Protel's Easytrax for 11+ years, still do a lot of layouts on it. It's now freeware. A Google search will send you to several download spots. It's DOS, but very easy to use, with 2 keystokes you can do almost anything. There are driver problems with newer printers, but I use a demo version of Protel for Windows to print with windows drivers. Easy to make custom parts and store in your own library. It's worth considering. |
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| GRollins |
Scott,
DOS doesn't bother me in the least.
I need to know if it will export "normal" formats cleanly--GIF, JPG, etc.
Grey |
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| AudioFreak |
| I'm not sure if easytrax can export to a clean graphics format but if you print it as postscript and select print to file then open it in a postscript viewer you can export a clean graphic from there usually in *.bmp,*.gif,*.jpg,*.tif or similar all of which are common formats .... probably more trouble than one would ideally like to go to but the option is there and it is free. |
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| GRollins |
Aside from the nuisance factor, I'd like to avoid stringing out a long daisy chain of programs to prep art--Geoff was noting that some of the traces shifted around on my Aleph art when he translated them to GIF (see other thread). The spacing got a little tight in a couple of places. I'm not sure I'd want to insert myself as a "negative feedback loop" to correct distortions that arise in the translation process.
Simple is best.
Grey |
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| paulb |
What's the Protel for Windows demo like? Could it be used instead of Easytrax?
I can live with DOS, and don't mind a few extra steps. And I like the price of Easytrax. But I need to print via Windows. |
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| scottnixon |
Grey and Paul, Easytrax will create a postscript
file that is accurate and good looking. Used to get a graphics house to output my postscript files to film and the matched up perfectly to the drill files. You can output those to a graphics converter (I think Ghostwriter works, I want to try Distiller) but a .jpg or .gif will not be accurate enough to fab from, most likely. The PFW demo will not save work, but you can print. Open the easytrax file from pfw (ignore the 'net' errors - there ain't no net) choose printer. PFW works better for makin' gerbers also.
Here is a sight with better DOS video drivers for Easytrax: http://www.airborn.com.au/easytrax.html |
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| paulb |
Here's what Weeghel at headwize says he does:
"I have Adobe Acrobat distiller/PDFwriter installed on my pc. I[t] functions as a printerdriver. So I print from PCBexpress to acrobat distiller, which gives me a PDF file with the image in it. I then use adobe photshop to open this pdf file (at 300DPI), cut out the image, make some last minute corrections, erase all the small black blocks that PCBexpress has added to the printout and save the image as a gif file."
Yes, it's labor intensive and not really what we're looking for here, I don't think.
Btw, just noticed I started this thread in the wrong forum, oops sorry. |
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| GRollins |
Paul,
Yeah, it sounds like a PIA, at least to me.
I fixed the forum problem--moved it to Everything Else. Hope that suits.
Grey |
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| Geoff |
In view of the interest shown in this thread (and my experiences whilst converting Grey's Aleph board files) I decided to carry out a review of available software. My criteria and objectives for selecting the software were:
It must be free
It must be capable of directly providing a bitmap file
It must not have print or save disabled
There must be no limitation on board size
Ideally it should be capable of having custom components added
A gerber file output would be advantageous for those who have their pcbs manufactured.
After reading many webpages and spending a lot of time downloading software, the choice of program became limited to two. All the rest failed to meet the foregoing requirements to a greater or lesser extent. ExpressPCB has a very user-friendly interface but it is impossible to obtain a usable output without resorting to a lot of post processing. I have tried to find a way to circumvent this but without success so far. Eagle has a limited board size and so was not considered. Others will not save or will not output a bitmap file.
The two programs that do (nearly) meet the above specification are Circad and Ares Lite (part of the Proteus suite from Labcenter) so I looked at these in more detail.
Neither has a particularly user friendly interface, though personally I found Ares Lite easier to handle (Circad continually confused me but I suppose I would get used to it in time).
Though both will output bitmaps, Ares Lite has the advantage that it is easier to select what you want to output (eg just the bottom copper) and it also has a very useful 'overlay' output which prints (or saves to .bmp) the tracks in grey with the components overlayed in black.
Ares Lite has an autoroute facility that is not present in Circad. Against this, Circad will accept a netlist from the schematic editor whereas Ares will not accept the output from it's companion schematic editor (Isis Lite)
Ares Lite has a pin limit of 100 and 10 second 'nag' screens before print and save. Both of these are removed if the software is registered (at a cost of £20).
Circad has Gerber output disabled unless the full product is purchased. Gerber (and Excellon) output can be added to Ares Lite for an additional registration fee of £20.
On balance, of the free software available, I feel that Ares Lite offers the best compromise of ease of use, facilities etc., though I would be pleased to be proved wrong if someone can come up with a program that has the user interface of ExpressPCB along with the ability to produce usable prints and .bmp files.
Ares Lite: http://www.labcenter.co.uk/
Circad: http://www.holophase.com./
Geoff |
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| mlloyd1 |
Geoff:
Excellent writeup; I wish I could do as well! I chose to use CIRCAD for the "plus" that you noted: integrated schematic capture and easy import. I plan to buy the full version when I get a ham license - there is a big discount for hams. For anyone interested in playing with CIRCAD, there is a CIRCAD group on Yahoo where they answer questions and share parts. The program authors participate occasionally as well.
mlloyd1 |
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| GRollins |
Geoff,
Two quick questions:
1) Will either of those programs export in formats other than BMP (i.e. JPG, etc.)? BMP is, I'm sure, sufficient unto the moment--just curious.
2) Can those two programs exchange data? This will devolve to a question of matching available Export vs. Import functions, I suppose. Since you and I share a fascination with class A operation, it would be useful if we could share board layouts directly, even should we choose different programs.
Many thanks for your homework...
Grey |
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| Geoff |
Grey
The quick reply is no, neither will export GIF or JPG. However, this is immaterial. The ability to output variable resolution bitmap files is more important. GIF and JPG files are generally not suitable for producing a pcb. A high resolution bitmap, however, can be sent to another party and then printed at the correct size to create artwork for etching a pcb. A lower resolution bitmap can easily be converted to GIF or JPG for display on a website etc. The file conversion can be done in Paint or MS Photo Editor or any number of graphics programs. The best, and fastest (and it's free!), program I have found for graphics conversion is Irfanview ( http://www.irfanview.com ).
I assume from your second question that you are looking for the ability to modify a layout prepared in one program by using the other one. I don't know of any pcb software that will allow this since the program's file format differs between each. If there is a common format it appears to be Gerber, but the free versions of Circad and Ares Lite will not import or export this. I would suggest that this is not too important. If the pcb layout is to be used without modification then the transfer of a high resolution bitmap will be sufficient. If modifications are needed, then it is not too much of a problem to have both programs installed on one's pc (since they are free) and to use the one appropriate to the original layout for any required modifications.
As a final point, why am I doing this? I always hardwire my amps, or use Veroboard for low current circuitry, so have no need to produce a pcb layout.
Geoff |
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| paulb |
Thanks, Geoff, for your considerable time in the investigation. Sounds like either suits my needs, and the registered version of Ares even fits my criteria for cheap. I'll try one sometime over the holidays, I have a couple weeks (although they're already overscheduled).
And as to why did you do this? I think it says something about your nature.
Cheers,
Paul |
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| GRollins |
My intent in asking about sharing between the two programs was to see how easily we could pass layouts amongst ourselves (while still allowing a certain lattitude in choice of programs for those who might have slightly different needs). I don't know how often we might need the capability (such as the 3-device output board Freddie edited down from the 6-device output board for the Aleph), but it would be nice to have it as painless as possible. Another possible application would be if someone needed to modify the ouput boards to accept a pinout other than GDS. Still, if the program is easy to use and will output a decent format fairly readily, I'm all for it.
I'll give it a try very soon...very soon indeed.
Grey |
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| grataku |
Was anyone able or tried to reproduce the results of the guy that posted on headwize using expressPCB? Paul has the link in the initial post of this thread.
It's not immediately clear to me how did he "capture the image into a pdf file". The method seems to give pretty hi-res images so that may be the way to go. I guess one would need adobe acrobat.
For the time being here is a silly-assed trick that I think anyone should be able to pull off using the micro$oft photo editor. Obvously it only works for a single layer pcb at a time and the resolution stinks, but it may yet be acceptable for pcb with large traces and for posting sample layouts etc.
I just tried this so there are probably many pitfalls to this idea.
Please test it out and let me know what you think.
Anyways, first make the pcb using expressPCB, try to display the full window on the screen and center the pcb using the appropriate button. Select the pcb with the cursor so the traces and(or) the silk layer turns into a uniform grey color. Next do alt-print screen and paste into photo editor.
Crop the picture and get rid of the window to obtain the pcb-only image. Use the negative command under the effects menu to turn the grey to black.
Save to a nice file format like tif or whatever. Done. |
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| paulb |
grakatu,
Please see my post on the previous page, weeghel did answer me. He's got Adobe Acrobat, that looks like a print driver, so he just prints to it, then fiddles around a bit. |
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| grataku |
Sorry Paul,
probably someone else has already figured out the low-res way I just posted too!!
Actually after posting I looked in my own "junk box" that is my computer and I found acrobat and illustrator and I was able to do the deed. Actually it's quite simple in Illustrator you can turn each color in the picture into a 'layer' and simply make the layer of the little dots disappear. The resolution is fantastic indeed.
Once you figure the commands it's a 30 sec. operation, total.
Too bad you need the adobe software kit to do it, which kills the whole point of the exercise. |
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| Geoff |
Grataku
I agree that the displayed image in ExpressPCB can be transferred to other programs via the clipboard, however this then requires post processing as I mentioned before, and this was something I was trying to avoid. The low resolution bitmap image produced by this method would not be suitable for etching boards, other than simple ones with large tracks and few pads. A further complication, particulary with larger boards, is ensuring that the scale remains 1:1. To fit a larger board on the screen in order to be able to copy it to the clipboard, the image size must be reduced. It then needs to be expanded during the post processing which causes further deterioration in the already poor resolution.
Capturing the print output is a better method, but I have been unable to do so with any of the free programs that I have managed to find. Acrobat obviously does work, but this costs money. The two virtual printer drivers that I have tried both caused ExpressPCB to crash. One claimed to convert the print output to a bitmap file, the other to pdf. They worked OK with the print output of other graphics programs I tried, but not with any of the pcb programs. I will continue my search for a free print output to bitmap converter that will work with ExpressPCB but I am not optimistic. Post processing will still be required and I think your estimate of 30 secs for this is a little unrealistic, even when one is familiar with process.
Geoff |
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| grataku |
Geoff,
your point about using free software is well taken. I had to prove to myself that that could be done, but that doesn't put us any closer to the solution of this problem. However, I don't think my times estimate is so far off. On the honor system, I could time myself if you'd like.
How long does it take you to do:
1) in expressPCB, file print to acrobat distiller (in color)
2) when the the adobe file opens automatically do save as eps file.
3) open the eps file with illustrator
4) use the eyedropper to select the color layer
5) turn the layer to white on the window color menu
6) save the file to gif.
Granted it probably takes 10-15 sec for Illustrator to open on a current pentium machine. Let's make the CPU time 30 sec and add 5 min of user time that makes the ordeal 10 times what I said it would be. It's still nothing compared to how long it takes to layout a pcb.
By the way as anyone asked him or herself if this putzing around and trying to circumvent the expressPCB program printing security is in anyway going to pi** those people off? |
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| paulb |
grataku,
Sorry I mis-spelled your name. I'll get it right from now on.
Paul |
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| Geoff |
I knew that perseverance would pay off in the end! Here is an easy method for those who would like to obtain an output from ExpressPCB without the need for Acrobat or too much post processing.
There are several possible ways of obtaining a usable output from ExpressPCB. One is to use Window's 'add printer' facility to add a postscript printer definition (any will do) set to output to FILE rather than LPT1. This printer is then selected when printing from ExpressPCB, thus producing a .prn file which can be read by Ghostscript and saved as a bitmap image file. The image file can then be edited using any graphics program available. All in all, a very messy solution.
Another way is to install a driver that outputs to a pdf file (as the Acrobat method above) and again use Ghostscript to convert to this to a graphics file. This offers no real benefit over the postscript method. What is needed is a driver that will directly output a bitmap file. The first ones I tried caused ExpressPCB to crash, but I have now found two that will work.
The first is Alphatronics 'Bitmap Driver':
http://www.alphatronics.net/ABMPDrv.html
This is a free, unlimited demo (the only restriction is a simple 'nag' screen) and is a quick download (<100kB). It is installed using the Windows 'add printer' facility and can then be selected when printing from ExpressPCB as any normal printer would be. A bitmap file is produced from the print output which can be saved and then edited with a graphics program. I have found that some traces are reduced in thickness and some smaller diameter holes disappear when using this driver.
The second image printer driver is from NED:
http://www.nedatacorp.com/imageprinter.asp
Again, this is a free, unlimited demo (the only restriction is a simple 'nag' screen) and is a fairly quick download. The installation procedure and subsequent use is similar to the Alphatronics driver, however there is one big advantage with the NED driver, it automatically opens up whichever graphics program is associated with a TIF file (or any other program that you specify in the .ini file) and displays the image - see the readme file for more detail. It is then very easy to crop the image (to remove the whitespace that would normally have appeared round the board when physically printed) and to set the board colour from grey to white (do not select 'print in colour' in the ExpressPCB dialogue box). The image can then be saved in whichever format you prefer. This driver is better at preserving trace width and holes, but will still lose very small diameter holes (below the size built in to ExpressPCB for normal components).
One additional benefit of using a bitmap driver is that the grid disappears and does not need to be manually removed. The resolution is not as good as a direct print from ExpressPSB but is better than using 'Print Scrn' and editing the resultant image, particularly for larger boards. I cannot compare the results with the Acrobat method previously outlined in this thread as I do not have the necessary software, but they are as good or better than those I have been able to achieve with a postscript or pdf output.
All this can be achieved with free software. I note Grataku's concern regarding output beyond that intended by the program's owners, but they have made this software freely available and I do not recollect seeing any proviso or usage agreement that restricts its use to only that associated with ordering boards from them.
I hope the foregoing has made sense, if not either post a query or email me.
Geoff |
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| Johan_Ch |
I have been using Ivex WinBoard for a while now, and all though it ain't the most stable program around, it has a very short learning curve.
But the main issue I have had with to other programs I have tryed out is that they often have a very limited library of parts. Yes, you can draw the you self, but that takes time and a lot of effort.
/Johan Ch |
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| sam9 |
Joihan_Ch wrote:
" have been using Ivex WinBoard for a while now, and all though it ain't the most stable program around, it has a very short learning curve."
Is this new software package from from IVEX (includes a XSPICE sinulator) or the older version? I gave up on the older version when I upgraded to WinXP. I now use Vutrax which free and only has two limitatins (256 pins, no Orcad Spice interface). No realbugs, but the documentation is obtuse at times.
""But the main issue I have had with to other programs I have tryed out is that they often have a very limited library of parts."
Vutrax has a large library, but it doesn't include many of the parts I need. It seems none do. |
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| lgreen |
I have stumbled onto an authorized CD of ORCAD LITE, I knew I had one around here somewhere. Does anyone know what the limitations of this are?
It includes 2 versions of capture, a pcb dealie and a spice dealie.
Before I try to use the pcb part, I would like to know if the effort is worthwile. Does anyone know if it can output usable files (to send to vendors to make a pcb) and has the capability to create components that can be edited? Other comments appreciated.
From looking at the web, it looks like the pcb is limited to 30 components, but I'm not sure.
thanks. |
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| Jan-Peter |
I have very good experience with PCB Elegance.
A 200 pins version is for free.
Website: www.merco.nl
Regards,
Jan-Peter |
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