| BlueWizard |
I got a good deal...sort of.
As you may or may not know, JBL has quit making the JBL Venue Stadium speaker.
See link below -
JBL Stadium -
http://jbl.com/home/products/produc...&CheckProduct=Y
Now let's see if I can make a long story even longer.
I've been looking at the JBL Stadiums and based on specs and the JBL reputation, I assume they were a good speaker. My first mistake.
So, I get a email from Fry.com indicating that they have Polk Audio R50's on sale for only $60 each ($85 each shipped to my door). The R50's are a 2-way tower with two 6.5"' woofers. (routinely available for about $200 each)
So, I go to BestBuy knowing they have one last display pair of JBL Stadiums (2x8"woofer, 4" mid, 1"high). On all of the woofers and one of the Midrange, the dust covers/domes were pushed in, but the sounded OK, no buzzing or scrapping. Individually, meaning if you put your ear right up to any give speaker, the sound good. Clear unassuming high, crisp midrange, decent base.
So, I made a low-ball offer of $100 each. Eventually they went for it, and I went home the happy owner of a pair of JBL Stadium towers.
Let's put is this way, I've always wondered if JBL was still putting out first rate speakers, or if they were riding on their reputation. Apparently the answer is - riding on their reputation.
My old speakers are a pair of large (13"x17.5"x26") 'bookshelf (ha-ha) speakers, ported with a 12" CTS woofer, 3x9 mid horn, and a 3x3 Piezo tweeter, off-the-shelf crossover (800/5khz). I built these for my college woodworking project. Birch over high density particle board (50lbs per speaker, finished)
I know now that I completely screwed up the port tuning. After making a few calcualtion (thanks Internet), I determined the cabinet is tuned to about 70 to 80hz. The woofer has a resonance of 28hz. Live and learn.
So, I connect the JBL's to my 50watt/ch Onkyo stereo receive and they sound OK. Music goes in, music comes out, it sound OK.
I listen to three albums, then get the idea to hook up my ill-designed old speakers as the rear 'B' speakers. Then put on Buddy Guy - Feels Like Rain, and switch between the two speakers.
My $150/pair (not counting labor) home-make speakers with bad port tuning BLEW the $600 (retail, $400 to $500 discount) JBL's away. The JBL's sounded like they were buried in a pile of dirt. Especially in the midrange.
My horn mid and highs we light, clear, and airy. The JBL muffled droney and muddy. Oddly though when I put my ear right up to each individual speaker, they sound fine, but when I step back it just muffles together.
Any hope for a dead broke guy who spend $200 on some crappy JBL speakers?
I considered trying to replace the midrange with something better, but the system crossovers are 300hz and 4000hz, so it is going to be hard to find a replacement speaker for this system.
Now I'm sure you purist will say 'no...no...these are delicate, highly engineered, finely tuned systems, you can't just randomly replace one speaker. But keep in mind that they are delicate, highly engineered, finely tuned systems that sound like ****.
If these are $600/pair speakers, then my homemade speakers are $1,000/pair.
Moral of this story, Do-It-Yourself, and even if you do it bad, you still come out ahead over wasting money on delicate, highly engineered, finely tuned ****.
I like horns, they sound light and airy, but where am I going to get a 4" diameter horn that covers 300hz to 4000hz. My next preference is for dome mid, but again 300hz to 4000hz, 4" diameter, and expensive.
That only leaves full range speakers such as the -
Tang Band W4-616SA 4" Shielded Driver ($20.62 each) -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...tnumber=264-818
sensitivity 88db; rated sensitivity of the JBL's 91db
And, is it going to matter? Am I just dreaming the impossible dream or is there some way to bring these speakers around.
I was going to retire my homemade speakers, but now I think I'll just plug the existing port holes and cut a new hole to tune the cabinets down around 30hz. Despite the ridiculous port tuning on my speaker, the bass is clean, clear, accurate, and moderately full. Easily comparable to, if not better than, the JBLs.
When I think of the speakers I could have built for $200, or the improvements to the my existing speakers, I cringe at the thought of foolishly having purchase the JBL crappola line of speakers.
So... any way to bring these JBL's around?
Help!
steve/bluewizard |
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| badman |
Could be a touch of proud papa... or maybe you prefer the flaws of your DIYs to a 'neutral' speaker... or the JBLs simply aren't your 'type' of sound....
In any case, repair ("pop out") the dustcaps and re-sell them, rather than trying to make adjustments that don't make a lot of sense for the speaker.
I haven't heard them, but it's certainly true that today's JBL is not the JBL of old. They still make some excellent pro drivers (and speakers) but mostly the consumer market stuff is just that, very modest stuff built for image and pricepoint. Your judgment of their value because you don't like the speakers you bought (damaged goods, no less) is pretty ludicrous. If you want to buy the cheapest clearance damaged speaker you find at best buy, it's a long stretch to complain about the manufacturer, and your own expectations are much more suspect.
You don't go to a car lot, buy the dented 76 pinto, then complain about the gas mileage vs. your homebuit gokart. |
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| BlueWizard |
Well, I think a dented tweeter might be a big problem. But a dented dust dome on a woofer shouldn't make much difference at all. It shouldn't really make any difference at all, if the voice coil has NOT become distorted.
For Midrange, still less of a problem, lots of cone, very little dome in this case, and only one midrange is dented.
As to this being me favoring what I built over what I bought, I defy anyone to listen to these speaker side by side and not hear how inferior the JBLs are. The truth is, given the over $600 retail price on the JBLs, I certainly expected them to sound better than my homemade speakers.
As I said, if I put my ear right up to each speaker on the JBL, isolating it, individually the speaker sound fine, but when you step back it blurs into a hopeless muddle.
However, I will concede that I have had my homemade speakers for many years and have listened to them a lot. One thing I did discover when hearing the JBLs is that I've had the midhorns on my original speakers turned way too high. I dialed them back substantially, and that brought out the bass more.
And when first listening to the JBLs, I thought I was merely hearing the difference between the light metal diaphragm of my horns and the warner tones of the cone mid. But when I heard them side by side, the contrast was enough to knock over an elephant.
Now, for the money, they're not bad speakers. That is, for the money I paid; for the typical discount or retail price, they are positively Grand Theft Audio. And, I didn't spend $200 expecting $200 speakers, I expected to leap up into the $600 speaker price or listening range. Instead, I got more or less generic consumer speakers.
Still, $200 will give me something to listen to while I fix up my old speaker. But, I've got the speaker, I've spent the money, which at my income level was a small fortune, I would like to get something workable out of them.
When I was listening to the JBLs before connecting my old speakers, the growing listening fatigue level was very noticeable. There is very little listening fatigue with my old speakers.
So, definitely something is up. I'm not sure I can even sell these speaker if my homemake speakers are in the same room with them.
I would like to improve them to the point were I enjoyed listening to them, or didn't feel pangs of conscience when trying to sell them.
Didn't really expect much of a response on this, just hoped against all hope that someone might have had a pair, and found a way to improve them.
Steve/bluewizard |
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| RJ |
Tang Band W4-616SA 4" Shielded Driver ($20.62 each) -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...tnumber=264-818
sensitivity 88db; rated sensitivity of the JBL's 91db
I would try it. The 91 db rating is at 2.83v wheras the TB is 88 db at 1v.
'Bout the same. The TangBand also has no breakup nodes higher up so it'll fit the crossover easier. 3.2 Xmax might get you that lower crossover point. It's a stretch though. |
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| Cal Weldon |
Steve,
I think you just discovered why some persons really like horns. No cone is going to do it for you. I'd leave the JBL's alone. |
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| salas |
| This adventure is so subjective, no measurements, no data, its just someone's preference. I would pop out the dust caps and sell a speaker I just don't like. Simple as that. To conclude that this is a horn vs direct radiator issue, is a long shot. See for cheap 12 inch pro speakers if the sensitivity and projection are sought out goals. |
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| GM |
Smart money is to replace any badly damaged drivers with OEM parts and eventually find another suc......er, buyer for them since believe it or not these pass for desirable HT/music speakers in today's B@$3 centric world.
JBL still markets top drawer systems, just most of us can't afford them.
You want to go audition these to fully appreciate just how much name brands cash in on their reps using bleeding edge technology to see just how much profit can be squeezed out of a system: http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/thx-ultra2.aspx
GM |
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| MJL21193 |
I have heard these speakers and they are not as bad as all that. Not audiophile quality, but listenable (when hammered :drink: )
Retail $600? That's not really very expensive... I have that in paint alone for a pair of speakers. :cool:
If you got these for $100 each, then you should be able to resell for at least that much. |
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| badman |
Well, dustcaps can play more of a role than you might expect. Check out the fostex ff85k ff165k ff225k. These all have dustcaps that, if removed or dented, would dramatically affect the top end performance of the driver, since they're directly coupled to the former. Dustcaps glued to the cone rather than the former act more as a 'whatever' kind of thing, but not all dustcaps are created equal.
JBL did this with several models back in the old days, including the venerable D123.
Could be you're hearing a lot more of the room with the JBLs, since they don't have horn directivity.
Again, don't bother trying to fix them, you're not knowledgeable enough to do this as anything but a learning excercise (wrong tuning on your DIYs, mid set too high, etc), and you're talking about how dear your dollars are to you, why waste them when, like as not, the form factor is the issue that's bothering you?
As to the tang band, while it looks like a nice little widerange mid, it's not as sensitive as RJ is saying. RJ, read your specsheets closer. It's 88dB@ 1W, not 1V.
Not to mention, look at the huge inductance of that driver. Such a driver in a multiway requires a lot of care in the crossover- SPECIFIC care, not just 'features' that may or may not be present in the extant JBL XO.
I know I'm being very negative. That's intentional. Trying to 'fix' this speaker without a greater understanding (and available budget) would be futile, and with a greater understanding and budget you could get a greater speaker together anyway. Since you're so happy with your horns, why not go with a bigger and/or more refined horn setup?
Pi speakers is one good option on this front. Earl Geddes is working out a line of kits, but they're likely out of budget. |
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| salas |
''I was willing to spend quite a bit more but it was not necessary. I have relatives and colleagues who are audiophile fanatics and have access to hearing very high end speakers and I would bet if a blind listening tests were conducted these JBLˇ¦s would come out on top. In my humble opinion, these speakers are that good.
Highs
- Great mid-range
- Excellent bass
- Natural sounding
Cons
- BIG, so you need some room but probably not an issue if you are looking for a floor stander''
The above comes from a Cnet review for JBL Stadium
''
1 of 1 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars A big surprise; a huge bargain, June 23, 2008
By Michael J. Bethancourt - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
When I ordered a pair of these, I figured I was "settling" for less than the best because of my limited budget. They had the best tech specs in the price range, but I was coveting something a bit pricey. When I got them set up, I was utterly blown away with the accuracy, depth, and range of sound, even at very high volume. I'm currently driving them with a Sony STR-DG2100, with a Playstation3 as the primary media player. After watching a bunch of my blu-rays and listening to a pile of CDs, I was so impressed with the performance-to-pricepoint ratio that within a week, I decided I had to buy another pair to finish off my home theater. Now my neighbors hate me and I'm in love with my speakers. I've listened to some higher-priced setups recently, and most of them sound inferior to these. I am convinced that you would have to pay much more than double this price to get better speakers... and to all the pretentious "self-professed audiophiles" out there: Klipsch is NOT the second coming, end-all be-all of speakers. They're good, but there's better, and Klipsch don't sound any better than these.''
This one comes from a review at Amazon
Go figure. |
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| GM |
| quote: | Originally posted by salas
Go figure. |
Like I said.............
Sad isn't it? The last time I frequented a HT forum the 'standard' to shoot for was the B&W 800 series, I guess because they are used in Abby Roads' studio, though this has nothing to do with HT.........
Anyway, I basically got drummed out of there for posting that these shouldn't be the 'standard' since they don't even come close to meeting the performance criteria for either THX or DD reference.
GM |
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| BlueWizard |
Again, I do appreciate the advise, and certain, even to myself, I say just accept it and leave it alone. But, I've got $200 invested, that may be peanuts to you, but that really is a small fortune for me. That far exceeds the cost of my original speakers.
I've looked at the specs, I've read all the reviews, that's why I was so sure I was doing the right thing getting the JBL's over the Polk Audio R50's.
And, when I first listened to the JBLs on their own, they sounded fine. One thing that is important to me is to hear voices clearly as I use my stereo to listen to TV and videos. And listening to TV and watching a video, I could hear voices clearly. But then I compared them to my original speakers. Which, keep in mind, even with the mids turn up, myself and lots of people heard these over the years, and no one ever complained or mentioned it. They still sounded good. It is only in proportion to the JBLs that I see the mids were up too high.
Here is the thing I find odd about the JBLs, and I've already mentioned this. If I put my ear right up to the individual speakers, they sound OK. The Mid sound fine in isolation, the Highs sound fine in isolation, the woofers sound fine in isolation, but when I step back, it all turns to mud.
"This adventure is so subjective, no measurements, no data, its just someone's preference.
Well ultimately, the final test is alway in the listening. The contrast is stark. This is no subtle difference. But I am going to get a few more people to listen and compare. But, I can't believe that people won't be able to hear the difference. Still, it's not like I hear one speaker in one store and another speaker in another store and was absolutely sure which was better. These speakers are in the same room and connected to the same amp. If anything, my original speakers are at a disadvantage as they are not at the front of the room along side my stereo.
"To conclude that this is a horn vs direct radiator issue, is a long shot. "
I'm not concluding anything about Horn vs Direct Radiators; I'm concluding something about THIS Horn and THIS cone speaker. I have them side-by-side. I think if I were designing new speakers, I would probably go with Dome Mids, so I don't have anything against direct radiators. But even that doesn't change the fact that I like horns. New and different isn't always better. Sometimes it is, but not always.
"Retail $600? That's not really very expensive...
Are you kidding, that's a king's ransom, to some.
"Well, dust caps can play more of a role than you might expect."
If you look at the photo in the link, the dust caps are pretty bog standard. I do realize that in some cases the dust cap play a huge role.
"Again, don't bother trying to fix them, you're not knowledgeable enough to do this as anything but a learning exercise (wrong tuning on your DIYs, mid set too high, etc), and you're talking about how dear your dollars are to you, why waste them when, like as not, the form factor is the issue that's bothering you? "
Keep in mind that my homemade speakers were design and built MANY years ago. I am generally knowledgeable, and despite my now obvious mistakes, I'd say I did a far more than passable job of it. Keep in mind that these are $150/pair, not $1500 or $15,000/pair. And they are old-school design, not towers or micro-bookshelf speakers.
What kills me, is that I thought I was upgrading. I don't need to spend money I don't really have to downgrade.
I can't afford to replace the drivers, but I will try to sort out the dust domes, if I can't, I'll check with a few speaker repair places and see if they can repair just the domes. That shouldn't cost too much.
Still, as I said, I didn't think there was much I could do, but I was hoping against all hope that someone might have encountered these speaker before, and might have found some way to clean them up. It was long shot, but one I thought worth taking.
Thank for your comments, they have been helpful, ... though admittedly disappointing.
Steve/bluewizard |
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| salas |
| quote: | Originally posted by BlueWizard
"This adventure is so subjective, no measurements, no data, its just someone's preference.
Well ultimately, the final test is alway in the listening. The contrast is stark. This is no subtle difference. But I am going to get a few more people to listen and compare. But, I can't believe that people won't be able to hear the difference. Still, it's not like I hear one speaker in one store and another speaker in another store and was absolutely sure which was better. These speakers are in the same room and connected to the same amp. If anything, my original speakers are at a disadvantage as they are not at the front of the room along side my stereo.
"To conclude that this is a horn vs direct radiator issue, is a long shot. "
I'm not concluding anything about Horn vs Direct Radiators; I'm concluding something about THIS Horn and THIS cone speaker. I have them side-by-side. I think if I were designing new speakers, I would probably go with Dome Mids, so I don't have anything against direct radiators. But even that doesn't change the fact that I like horns. New and different isn't always better. Sometimes it is, but not always.
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I don't say that your speakers are not better, I say that we know nothing more than the fact that you like them more than the stadiums. With no data about your design, and measurements of both speakers in the same listening space we can't have any opinion. That is the problem with a subjective review. I found many other's saying the JBLs are awesome. I copied 2 of them here. What to know? Who's wrong or right? The only fact is that you don't like the JBLs. And you may well be very right!
The horn vs direct radiator thing was not for you but for Cal Weldon. I just did not press the quote button bcs I was posting directly underneath.;) |
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| MJL21193 |
| quote: | Originally posted by salas
The horn vs direct radiator thing was not for you but for Cal Weldon. I just did not press the quote button bcs I was posting directly underneath.;) |
:up:
Steve, put away your old speakers for a week and listen to the stadiums. Get used to how they sound. Then have a listen to your old ones again, but keep an open mind.
The first listen to any speaker will be very critical, you look for problems. |
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| GM |
You're welcome!
Sorry, the truth hurts sometimes and I'm sure we all have similar stories, though not necessarily audio related and while $600 to you and me is serious $$ it's only a 'drop in the bucket' in today's consumer audio, not to mention in much (most?) of DIY.
GM |
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| ScottG |
Its a *long* shot but..
1. if tweeters are the same size as these then replace them with these (utilizing the JBL waveguide surround but not the phase-guide "grill"):
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...tnumber=275-030
2. Don't replace the mids, rather get some large diameter (just slightly larger than the mids), pvc pipe from a home improvement store. Also get a couple of boxes of pvc straws. (Remove the mid's current enclosure.. OR if its a closed back mid then cut a bunch of holes in the back of it without damaging the driver.) What you want to do with this is have the pipe "enclosing" the mid driver and extending all the way to the back of the speaker. Cut out a hole in the back of the speaker for the pvc pipe to "exit" (cut the pipe flush to the loudspeaker's back to finish). Seal the driver and pipe connection and the pipe and box connection with caulk. Stuff the "pipe" with the straws but make sure you don't have them contact the mid driver's frame and especially not the driver's diaphragm. Basically you are transmission line venting the output of the midrange in this fashion (a quasi-dipole with a few resonances). Yes, their will likely be some freq. deviations around 400 Hz.
..OR
as others have said, just try to sell the things. |
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| BlueWizard |
First, again thanks to all for the reality check. What's done is done, and, for now, I have to live with it. But if you really knew how hard it was for me to part with that $200, you would be far more sympathetic. :cannotbe:
While I'm sure I sound like a hack, the first 6 speaker systems I built, I designed and built with nothing but a thin wallet and a stack of mail-order discount catalogs.
And that brings me to a side track unrelated to the subject at hand.
I love this group and have and will continue to learn a lot from it. Though sometimes it seems as if the volume of knowledge is far more than one person could ever know in a lifetime. And the level of expertise and experience can be downright intimidating.
Because of this, my one criticism of this group is that you frequently post $1,000 answers to $100 questions. You forget that not everyone who comes here is working with the same bank of knowledge, nor the same resources (tools, design programs, experience, test equipment, finances, time, obsessive/compulsive disorder, etc... ).
As an example, may years ago, I built a speaker system based around a tri-axial speaker; 12" woofer, whizzer cone midrange, and a small horn tweeter mounted in the center - an all in one. I bought it because it was the best I could afford, and I'm sure that means $20 to $25 apiece, if even that. Based on the time and place, that actually sounds expensive.
For construction tools I had a hand held circular saw ($20), an electric Skill or jig saw ($12), a basic electric drill ($10) and an assortment of very NOT electric screw drivers. Built in the backyard, no clamps, no vises, no work benches, no saw horses, just me, a patch of grass, and some determination to heard good music sound good.
Since I couldn't cut miters in the corners, I left the corners open and and fastened the inner edges of the side and top together by screwing and gluing them to a 2x2. Then I filled the corner gap with corner coving wood molding (think quarter round, but curving in instead of bowing out). Once stained and finished it look pretty good, and amazingly, sounded pretty good. Sold them a year later for a fair price, and started again.
I did this because any commercial speaker that I could have possibly bought was hopelessly out of my reach or wholly inadequate to the job. In the case above, for about $50 to $75 a pair and some effort, I had some huge 12" speakers that sounded far better than anything my friends had, and despite limited tools, looked pretty darn good.
And so it goes, until I built my last set of speaker in college. Even with the tuning flaw and loud midrange, they still sounded good. Every one who has ever heard them has been impressed. Of course, we were mostly stoned while listening, so you might want to take that into account. Still after many years, there are few who wouldn't agree that they sound good.
While most of you strive for perfection, many of us just want good sounding speakers.
Do my speakers sound $1,500 good, probably not. Do they sound $15,000 good, certainly not. But believe me THEY SOUND $150 GOOD, way good.
In a previous discussion, we were debating the merits of off-the-shelf crossovers. My fellow debater took that idea as sacrilege...absolutely unheard of and un-allowable. Yet, what do you do if you are a person with limited tools, limited money, limited time, limited knowledge, limited experience, and yet you are sick and tired of crappy Walmart boomboxes.
Everyone has to start somewhere. Most here advise that a beginner, either buy a kit, or duplicate one of the many existing designs available on the Internet, and I would agree that that is good advice. In fact, it is the advice I would and do give.
But I know a beginner can get good results with some basic box design, a fair sized low-cost woofer, a decent mid, a well balanced tweeter, an off the shelf crossover, and if needed a couple of L-Pads. Plus time, and moderate skill with basic low cost tools.
Consider that someone might start here at this low level, and then progress through a series of projects until they are ultimately ready for your $1,000 solution.
What does this have to do with anything? Well, nothing really, I'm just in the mood to rant.
But when new people come to this forum, instead of trying to put them in your place, try to put yourself in their place, and if they ask a $100 question, difficult as it might be to sink that low, try to offer a $100 answer that fits the context of the person asking.
I'm sure many people come here filled with hopes dreams, and enthusiasm, visions of self-built speakers dancing in their hears, and quickly leave disillusioned, think it's all just too complicated. I don't think that is what you really want. I think you want to foster and re-enforce that enthusiasm, so that someday, after a series of ever expanding learning projects, they too can be at your level.
Maybe the first few projects won't be perfect, but with some basic effort and basic resources, those first few efforts can be cheap and good, and can lead to better. I'm living proof of that several times over.
For what it's worth, just keep that in mind.
Sorry, to ramble, but I'm depressed about spending this money on a speaker that fell short of expectations, and therefore felt the need for a general rant.
Thanks, I feel better now.
Steve/bluewizard |
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| MJL21193 |
| quote: | Originally posted by BlueWizard
My horn mid and highs we light, clear, and airy. The JBL muffled droney and muddy. Oddly though when I put my ear right up to each individual speaker, they sound fine, but when I step back it just muffles together.
Any hope for a dead broke guy who spend $200 on some crappy JBL speakers?
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Hi Steve,
A question: Does your old DIY pair have a baffle step correction in the crossover? If not, the JBL almost certainly does (2 woofers for a 2.5 maybe).
Could that be the difference you are hearing? A little more lower bass than you were used to? |
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| Conrad Hoffman |
| IMO, you need to be sure the speakers are in proper order to give them a fair shot. Demo or floor speakers can take a lot of both physical and electrical abuse, so don't assume what you have is the way they're supposed to sound. Fix the dust caps than drive them with a mono signal. Is the image exactly centered at all frequencies? Can you generate a sweep with a CD or the PC? How do they sound during a sweep? Interstation radio noise? Smooth? Any frequency ranges where they stand out or there's a hole? The above advice to listen only to the new speakers for a week or two is excellent. Do it. Also, play with room placement. Not all speakers sound best in the same spot. |
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| BlueWizard |
Hi Steve,
A question: Does your old DIY pair have a baffle step correction in the crossover? If not, the JBL almost certainly does (2 woofers for a 2.5 maybe).
Could that be the difference you are hearing? A little more lower bass than you were used to?
The crossovers are generic straight forward 12db 3-way crossovers; crossing at (if I remember correctly) about 800hz and 4k to 5khz.
Roughly the equivalent of this -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...tnumber=260-210
The midhorns are roughly like this -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...tnumber=280-050
This is a 4x10, and I have a 3x9, but again, it is a pretty generic straightforward midhorn.
The piezo tweeter, which is a generic 3x3, is connected to the tweeter section of the crossover, and have a 10 ohm resistor across the terminals to stabilize the apparent impedance load to the crossover.
The 3x9 mids have an 8-ohm L-Pad between them and the crossover.
So, no; baffle step correction, not likely.
Again, I acknowledge that my speakers are louder than the JBL, but what I'm hearing is not just volume or intensity alone. It is clarity and a sense of width. The music expands into the room.
Also, the JBLs certainly have lower bass extension. But on general listening that ultra low bass isn't that noticable. Mostly I just feel the floor vibrate more with the JBLs. I acknowledge the poor tuning in my DIY speaker. But even with the poor tuning, with the mids dialed back now, the bass is pretty good. Certainly, I hope it can be better, but it's still good; not ultra-low, but present, clear, crisp, and accurate.
I mean, ego driven as it sounds, I think my speakers just sound better, but I will try to get some other ears on it. Part of the trouble I have is that I'm out in the middle of the boondocks, and have a serious shortage of discriminating listeners I can ask.
Still, thanks to all who took the time to respond.
steve/bluewizard |
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| salas |
In this forum we normally judge and tweak DIY efforts on technical merit. Never on a price point. We mostly seek DIY technical excellence so to beat the Dollar. If its an expensive project we do that still, because we shoot for performance on par or above stratospherically priced products. Big savings.
The problem with really helping you, is that you have made no design or having any technical data. You put together some off the shelf bits at a point,still sounds nice to you, you don't like the JBLs. That's our available ''data''. That's hardly a place to begin.
We could start making a zillion guesses and suggestions and put you in a buying and trying components trip. But that would be irresponsible and childish from our side. We have no grounds you see. My best 2c of advice would be to just buy a Panasonic electret mic capsule make a dirt cheap wand microphone with it, and a dirt cheap op amp DIY pre amp for it, download Speaker Workshop (free), use your PC as a measurement station and tweak what you have. Sell the JBLs. When you come back with frequency response and impedance data for each one of your drivers on your box baffle, and for some common arbitrary listening axis, we REALLY can be helpful. All else would be hit or miss and frustration. |
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| djarchow |
Usually whatever speakers we listen to most are what sounds best to us, regardless of how they actually sound.
I have a friend who built a dedicated home theater in his basement last year. Prior to this he had a Bose 5.1 channel setup. IMO, the Bose system sounded terrible especially when driven hard. He was very happy with the Bose and was going to get a similar system for the HT. I convinced him to triple his budget and he went with all Paradigm Reference Studio speakers which both measure and sound very good.
First time my friend listened to the system he thought it sounded terrible. He said the there was no midrange, too much treble, and way too much bass. Hmmm exactly the opposite of his old Bose speakers. Both his dealer and I assured him that it sounded excellent (it really did) and to give it a try over the next couple weeks. I visited him about two months later and he then loved the new setup. In fact he got rid of the Bose system in the family room and replaced it with a Paradigm on wall system that sounded lots better than the Bose, though not nearly as good as his HT.
My point here is that you are very used to your DIY speakers Regardless of how accurate they are, they are what your ears are used to hearing for music. If you have no baffle step compensation in your current speaker, you are probably used to have very elevated mids and lower treble. Any speaker that is flat in the mids may sound lifeless to you. I would recommend going to a decent hi fi shop and listen to some speakers that measure well and are well regarded (regardless of price). If they sound muddy and muffled through the mids, then you are just used to a different sound.
Don't get me wrong, the JBLs may be a poorly designed terrible sounding speaker, but you do need to consider that your tastes have been colored by your current speakers.
Kind regards,
Dennis |
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| badman |
| quote: | Originally posted by BlueWizard
First, again thanks to all for the reality check. What's done is done, and, for now, I have to live with it. But if you really knew how hard it was for me to part with that $200, you would be far more sympathetic. :cannotbe:
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Steve:
You keep whining about the pricetag. I understand having a lack of income, I think a fair number of us have been there. Certainly part of DIY is frugality, though that may not be the case for some people (Shinobiwan, for example, gets to buy all the best toys, but then, he deserves them, looking at the effort he puts in).
But you're whining about the price, and refusing to recoup your investment by selling them off. Basically, this whole thread is predicated on irrationality- you bought something because it was getting blown out, and you're not happy with it, so you want to fix it....
Just sell them off and start a new diy speaker with the cash. Done. $200 buys you enough parts to do an Audio Nirvana or large Fostex BIB, that'll likely give you vocal intelligibility to spare, not to mention, big, rockin, high output bass. |
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| Godzilla |
| I would redo your home made speaker by building a box tuned correctly for the woofer. I don't think the JBL will sound as good no matter what you do. Can you return them or was the sale final? Maybe you can return them for something else you may need - dvd player or even some dvds or cds... tell them you had an argument with someone in your house about keeping them and lost. They may give you a store credit you can use when you want something else. Then figure out the new box dimensions and re build your home made speakers into even better ones than they are now. You will love them! |
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| MJL21193 |
| Godzilla the best advice so far. Worth a try to bring them back. |
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| BlueWizard |
I bought the JBL to replace my old DIY speakers, and I thought I was taking a huge set upward. The common selling price for the JBL's is $200 to $250 apiece. Though no one ever pays it, the suggested retail is over $650/pair. So, again, I thought I was taking a huge step upward in sound and general quality.
Next, I'm not refusing to sell them, and I am willing to listen to them more and get used to them, and I am willing to get some more ears on the job to evaluate them. Though as I said, being in the middle of nowhere creates a shortage of both discerning people to listen and places to go and listen to other speakers.
Around here most buy their stereo equipment from either Walmart for consumer electronics or Best Buy for what they consider 'audiophile' equipment, which means JBL, Klipsch, and Sony. All of which are normally out of my price range. To even remotely hear a decent quality speaker, which would certainly also be far out of my price range, I would have to spend $50, and look extremely hard. But that's just life, can't remake the world.
Regardless of the sound quality in comparing the two speakers, there is a noticeable listening fatigue with the JBLs, that's not a good sign.
So, while I originally planned to retire my DIY speakers, I'm now planning to rebuild them; lots of labor, very little cost. I have some question relating to that, that I will post in another thread.
So, as others have said, why throw good money after bad? But the JBLs, based on my current perception, sound so bad compared to my DIY speakers, that I will have to hide my DIY in the closest when anyone comes to audition the JBLs. The JBLs sound tolerable on their own, it is only in contrast to my DIY that they sound flat.
Despite my disappointment, I am willing to give the JBL's a chance, and really have no choice since I will have to completely tear my DIY speakers apart to do some woodworking on the cabinets. So, until my DIY are modified, I have to listen to the JBLs.
As to returning them, it was an 'as is' sale, so what is done is done. I accept that.
Yet, I do confess myself disappointed.
Again, I appreciate the comments. I wasn't actually hoping for a miracle when I posted here, but I was willing to accept one if it came.
steve/bluewizard |
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| BlueWizard |
I'm experimenting with my speakers again, trying as hard as possible to make it a fair comparison. Believe me I am trying to love the JBLs. As tired as you are of hearing me whine about money, me spending $200 is about like the average person spending $2,000. It's serious money. But again, what is done is done. Live and learn.
I did manage to pop the dents out of the woofers, but one midrange is being stubborn. I popped it mostly out, but still have one very noticeable dent in the center about 3/8" diameter. I used sticky fiberglass re-enforced packing tape. You need something with serious 'stick', masking tape gives way too easily.
As you know, my DIY speaker at any setting have substantial midrange coming from the 3x9 horn.
So, it occurred to me that certainly bright loud midrange is going to make the music 'pop' and stand out. So, to get as fair a comparison as possible I dialed the midrange back on my DIY speakers until it was as close as possible to the JBLs.
The dial on the back of the cabinet (L-Pad) has a printed range on it that goes from
MIN. ---------------------- MAX.
When the dial is pointing just below the dot (.) on 'MIN.', it is at full turn and the sound is off. I turn the dial upward until I can just hear the midrange, and the dial points to the 'I' in MIN. That is how low it has to be to even be remotely comparable to the JBL.
And, it did make a difference, but there is no way I can dial the midrange back enough, to truly equal the JBL. The closest I can come, is to turn the midrange literally OFF.
Which is odd, because as I've repeatedly said, when I put my ear right up to the JBL Mid, it is clear and crisp. Amazingly so compared to when I step back.
Again, I'm well aware that this is purely subjective. But I'm not in a position where I can take measurements, so subjective perception is about all I have.
Still, I'm lovin' those horns even if they do overwhelm everything else.
Just out of curiosity, I looked on the Internet for the current closest equivalents to my DIY speakers. Using a Dayton Classic 12" woofer which has similar resonance, response, and magnet weight, I calculated $83.90 per speakers (woofer, midhorn, piezo tweeter, X-over, L-Pad).
The Daytons are probably a little better than my CTS, but they are as close a match as I could find in a low cost woofer.
If nothing else, I though you might be amazed at how low I had to set my midrange to match the JBL.
Just passing it along.
And again, I do appreciate the comments, I'm well away that I was asking a virtually impossible question, but miracles do occur. So, a guy can always hope.
Steve/bluewizard |
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| panomaniac |
Damn Steve! You really took a beating, both on the JBLs and on this thread - but you keep hanging in there. Bravo!
A few random thoughts from me.
The $100 solution is going to be tough, as Salas points out. We just don't know enough about the JBLs to offer cheap fixes. There may well be some, but it's going to be hard to know.
You've proved your point - better to build than to buy!
Please do test the JBLs as mentioned above. Run some sweeps. If you don't have sweeps, I'm sure someone here (even me) can get you some. Listen for any possible damage or unevenness between the 2 sides.
Do give the JBLs a couple of weeks. Get used to them. Then go back to the old ones, tell us what you think.
Is it possible the JBL was designed with a recessed midrange? Sort of a built in loudness curve? It can make speakers sound "fuller." Your homemade speakers may have the opposite curve.
When you've got a good horn, it's easy to turn it up too loud. I speak from experience. :xeye:
If nothing else, sell them and fold the money back into your old speakers. You'll have the speakers you already like, but better! |
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| mashaffer |
| Hmm... I wonder if one of the midranges is wired in the wrong phase. If you feed a mono signal to just one of the JBLs and then the other do they sound the same? |
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| BlueWizard |
mashaffer,
I wondered that too. I'm considering opening them up just to look at how the midrange is connected. If there are spade connections on the Mids, it's really easy to switch them around and listen. Or if there are screw terminals on the Mid X-O, I might be able to swap them there, just as a test.
I think for the moment, fixing my DIY speakers is my first priority.
Now I've heard them against a fairly good speaker, and I prefer them, I see no reason to change. |
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