| chrish |
G'Day Guys,
First off, I don't play electric guitar, so I don't really know what is important in a guitar amp. My 12 year old son plays acoustic guitar and wants to learn electric. I see the opportunity to build an amp! From what I gather, much of the "tube sound" in a guitar amp comes when you drive it hard, so a large amp to practice at home will probably not sound the best? So, for use at home, at volume levels that are not going to drive me insane, what do people recommend? I am thinking maybe a Fender champ or princeton narrow panel, or maybe a marshall 18.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Chris |
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| kacernator |
| Look at AX84.com website. I recommend these: Firefly (1W), Lead 1 with 6V6 PP 20W. |
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| Rob11966 |
Hi Chris,
I have just gone through this process myself for my 10 year old boy. I have a coupe of mates who are really into guitar playing and they both came up with the same amp.
This is what I was looking for -
A classic, proven design
Something that can play loud but also sounds good a low volume
A nice Bluesy sound
Something with a bit of character
Both recommended the Fender tweed deluxe - and both own these amps as well.
I looked into the complete DIY option, and the more I looked the more obvious it became that a kit was the way to go.
I ordered a complete kit (including replica cabinet) from Mojo Musical Supplies (http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/) for about $700. There is an Australian company that does it as well but they are significantly more expensive.
Now, I ordered the amp about 6 weeks ago and it has not been sent yet as they are awaiting an export (240v) transformer so I am a little disappointed with the time but they have not charged my credit card yet and they have been very prompt and courteous with their emails and quite apologetic.
I have attached a schematic but I think that the one that they sell is the slightly later (but very similar) model.
Hope this helps. Have a look at the site under the kit section. Lots of options and prices as well.
Cheers,
Rob |
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| Rob11966 |
Sorry,
Here is schematic.
Rob |
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| chrish |
Thanks for the info.
I think I have most of the parts available to make one of these. Just need an output transformer and speaker. The cabinet looks like it is nothing more than a box without a back. The chassis and wiring for the amps look a quite agricultural. Chassis as ground, heaters grounded to chassis etc. Do these things hum like crazy?
Anyway, looks like a fun project!
Cheers,
Chris |
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| Peter M. |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrish
G'Day Guys,
First off, I don't play electric guitar, so I don't really know what is important in a guitar amp. My 12 year old son plays acoustic guitar and wants to learn electric. I see the opportunity to build an amp! From what I gather, much of the "tube sound" in a guitar amp comes when you drive it hard, so a large amp to practice at home will probably not sound the best? So, for use at home, at volume levels that are not going to drive me insane, what do people recommend? I am thinking maybe a Fender champ or princeton narrow panel, or maybe a marshall 18.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Chris |
I agree, you don`t need much power for a practice amp.
I made myself a single ended 5watt amp, and it was way more than i needed. For me at least I think half a watt would be enough. |
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| Trout |
Wouldnt it be easier to just grab an Epiphone Valve Junior off ebay and mod/voice it as desired?
These can usually be purchased in new to near new condition for under $150.00.
There are hundreds of mods & upgrades posted on various web sites.
This amp was responsable for a heck of a lot of guys getting their feet wet in Valve amps and mods.
Just a thought. |
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| chrish |
Thanks for the suggestion Trout, however I live in Australia and 240volt mains and international shipping will add to the pain.
I know my son thinks I am a bit of a geek, but I know if we build an amp together he will secretly boast to his friends (when I am not around) "my dad and I built this thing". Truth is, I like building things too ;)
While I have your attention, are there any sonic benefits of single ended vs push pull for guitar amps?
Thanks again guys!
Chris |
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| ian_carney |
The Firefly is an excellent little amp - distorts nicely and is not too loud.
I built one for my son, and it has launched a frenzy of amp building. Lots of fun, and his guitar teacher is impressed!
Also have a look at www.generalguitargadgets.com for neat effects to build.
Ian |
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| Peter M. |
If it is a benifit depends on your preference.
To my ears SE sounds sweeter and warmer, also when overdriven. For sweet clean sounds I prefer SE, for hard heavy metal distortion I prefer PP.
PP sounds more dynamic and punchy, it hits you harder. |
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| whitelabrat |
I was just thinking of putting together a low power guitar amp myself. I have an old Stromberg-Carlson PA amp that I've converted into guitar service. Only downside so far is I have to turn it up to a mind-bending volume to get nice distortion out of the 6L6 tubes. I've also owned a PP EL84 Peavey Classic 20 that should be just enough up against a drum kit, unless you want a clean sound.
I don't gig anymore, so I was thinking of something like a 6aq5 PP design based on one of the fender 6v6 amps like the Blues Jr., or Princeton. The Champ is an SE amp that is well regarded.
I'm only interested in PP because I've already got spare OPT's, but I think that a 6L6 based SE amp would be very nice if you don't need a lot of volume.
Seriously though. People just toss out the old tube PA amps, and after modifications they make good guitar amps. |
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| ian_carney |
ps -- use a decent speaker -- the celestions are good and loud - the Rocket 50 or seventy 80 are not too expensive. They are plenty loud enough for practise with a single ended 6v6.
Ian
pps ebay is good source of Russian surplus valves at reasonable prices
look for a 6p1p.... |
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| chrish |
Wow! lots of responses, thanks! Will have to think about the SE v PP option, maybe ask my son what he thinks he is going to want to play...
Yes, those Russian valves are cheap. I have a bunch of 6P1P, 6P2P 6P3S etc ;) Low power PP might just be the right option...
Cheers,
Chris |
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| nigelwright7557 |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrish
G'Day Guys,
First off, I don't play electric guitar, so I don't really know what is important in a guitar amp. My 12 year old son plays acoustic guitar and wants to learn electric. I see the opportunity to build an amp! From what I gather, much of the "tube sound" in a guitar amp comes when you drive it hard, so a large amp to practice at home will probably not sound the best? So, for use at home, at volume levels that are not going to drive me insane, what do people recommend? I am thinking maybe a Fender champ or princeton narrow panel, or maybe a marshall 18.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Chris |
You need to go along to a music shop and try out a few amps.
Whats sounds good to one man sounds bad to another.
I found valve amps to be expensive so I built a transistor amp and made a valve pre amp. |
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| mashaffer |
I was in a similar situation to yours when I started building an amp for my grandson. He wanted to gig with it in small venues and needed preamp out for patching into the band's PA for bigger venues. I built what amounts to a Marshall 18W using 6V6 instead of EL84 driving a 12" Eminence Man O War and a modified plexi front end with cascading switch.
That thing is loud! Sounds very sweet I think and he loves it. For a bedroom amp it is a bit much though so I agree with the idea of either a small SE unit like the AX84 projects or one of the PP designs that use small signal tubes for the output to provide mW output.
You can see some of my journey in the following locations...
Amp up and running - Note: post number 3 has a lnk to the schematic
Link with some technical discussion and nice pics
The folks at both 18watt.com and the AX84 forums were extremely helpful throughout my project. Best of luck. |
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| gingertube |
Chris,
I do play electric guitar.
In between "Baby Huey" versions I built myself this:
Give me a buzz on the weekend if you want to chat about options, Oz suppliers of guitar speakers etc. (08) 8269-3539
Cheers,
Ian |
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| tubelab.com |
| quote: | | So, for use at home, at volume levels that are not going to drive me insane, what do people recommend? |
I could really annoy my parents with a Fender Champ when I was 12. Especially after I was done with it. I could make the tubes glow even then. But I didn't understand why it blew up when I put a 6L6 in it (fried the power transformer).
Seriously, as suggested before, go to a shop that sells amps. Let him hear several to find the sound that he likes. A metal head, a blues player, and a rythm player will all pick out a different amp.
| quote: | | much of the "tube sound" in a guitar amp comes when you drive it hard, |
The "sound" comes from the reaction of the tubes, OPT and speaker, especially as they leave the linear region. Change any one of these and you change the sound. |
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| chrish |
Thanks Ian,
Appreciate the offer to speak this weekend, but unfortunately I am flying out to Hong Kong and Singapore in the morning. At least I will be able to scrounge for parts while away! Interested in sources for the speaker in Aus, saves shipping. One of the previous forum posts suggests a Celestion Rocket 50 or Seventy 80. AES have them for $50 and $70 respectively (plus shipping!).
I have just bought a house with my partner, so funds a little tight, and also will be shifting all my stuff over in late August. Will have to set up workshop again, but when it is set up I will be able to build the cabinet myself.
Since I will be scrounging for parts overseas, I have a 290-0-290 150mA transformer that I was intending to use. From the AES catalogue it looks like the Fender Deluxe uses a 330-0-330 transformer. It uses a 5Y3 rectifier. I have some 5Z4 rectifiers that should give the same B+ with the lower voltage transformer. Is there something special about a 5Y3? It looks like it is used a lot in those Fender amps. Is this what gives the "sag"? Would be good to be able to use parts I have on hand.
Good suggestion to take him to a shop and let him see what sound he likes!
Thanks again, l am impressed by all the input!
Chris |
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| gingertube |
Chris,
Yes the 5Y3 is used to give "Sag" or as we middle age (plus) guitar types like to say to give "Compression" (Sag is not a topic we like to talk about although I prefer "Athletes Sag" to "Middle Age Spread"). It has a high internal impedance and voltage drop so the B+ line "sags" when you hit a string hard and gives you power amp compression and as the note dies away the power supply recovers and gives you some sustain. This is part of the vintage "Blues" sound.
Celestion's Oz agents are listed as:
Next Entertainment Technology
Unit 2, 98 Old Pittwater Rd, Brookvale NSW 2100 Australia
Telephone: +61 2 9905 5997
Fax: +61 2 9905 9440
I note that Cannon Sound also stocks them.
One of my guitar playing buddies here in Adelaide has just finished a Kit Amp - he bought it in from Ted Webber in the US. He was impressed with the kit and the resulting amp.
Cheers,
Ian |
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| Eli Duttman |
Chris,
You can obtain the "sag" from the 5Z4 by holding the capacitance value down in the 1st position of the PSU filter. CLC construction is best and something like 3.3 or 2.2 μF. in the 1st position achieves the goal.
At the start of this thread, you mentioned wanting an amp that's not excessively loud. IMO, Leo Fender's early "Champ" nicely fills the requirement. A pictorial showing all the "Champ" voltages is here. |
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| chrish |
Thanks again for all the input. I guess this would be a little easier for me if I was a guitar player! I am going away with work, so if I don't post here for a week or so, it is not because I am ignoring all of your good input :)
Here is a question that comes to mind, probably been asked before, but here goes...
If guitar players want lower volumes for practice and higher volumes for jamming, but you need to drive the amp hard to get the interesting tone, is there a way to run the amp hard, but shunt some of the power at the output end when you want low volumes for practice?
Thanks for the schematics and layout link Eli. Good to see the values for voltages +/-20%. I think I can work to tolerances like that ;) Maybe a low power amp will have my son hungry for more power and turn him in to a new Tubelab!
A buddy of mine who lives in Melbourne just built his young son a Fender Princeton Narrow Panel clone. It looks similar to the Champ mentioned, but with some tone controls at the input end. Is this worth considering? The Deluxe looks like it is similar to this, but uses PP 6V6 instead of single ended.
A thought just came to mind... I noticed on another thread on this forum where a member had a PP EL84 amp and removed one of the EL84s in the PP pair and the amp still worked. I tried this in my "Baby Huey" and got the same result - yes it did work. Would a viable option be to make a "Deluxe" and remove one of the 6V6s for practice?
Sorry for the random crazy thoughts, just getting ready for work now without much time for considered thoughts and questions ;)
Thanks Guys!
Chris |
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| nigelwright7557 |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrish
Thanks again for all the input. I guess this would be a little easier for me if I was a guitar player! I am going away with work, so if I don't post here for a week or so, it is not because I am ignoring all of your good input :)
Here is a question that comes to mind, probably been asked before, but here goes...
If guitar players want lower volumes for practice and higher volumes for jamming, but you need to drive the amp hard to get the interesting tone, is there a way to run the amp hard, but shunt some of the power at the output end when you want low volumes for practice?
Thanks for the schematics and layout link Eli. Good to see the values for voltages +/-20%. I think I can work to tolerances like that ;) Maybe a low power amp will have my son hungry for more power and turn him in to a new Tubelab!
A buddy of mine who lives in Melbourne just built his young son a Fender Princeton Narrow Panel clone. It looks similar to the Champ mentioned, but with some tone controls at the input end. Is this worth considering? The Deluxe looks like it is similar to this, but uses PP 6V6 instead of single ended.
A thought just came to mind... I noticed on another thread on this forum where a member had a PP EL84 amp and removed one of the EL84s in the PP pair and the amp still worked. I tried this in my "Baby Huey" and got the same result - yes it did work. Would a viable option be to make a "Deluxe" and remove one of the 6V6s for practice?
Sorry for the random crazy thoughts, just getting ready for work now without much time for considered thoughts and questions ;)
Thanks Guys!
Chris |
Most amps have an overdrive/gain control which still gives plenty of distortion at lower volume settings.
If I were you I would take my son to a guitar shop and have a listen to a few amps. Just coz someone here says it sounds good doesnt mean you or your son will think the same. Sounds can be very subjective. You would also get an idea of what power level you require.
If yo udo go to a shop then take his guitar as different guitars can sound quite different due to different pickups etc |
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| Bandersnatch |
hey-Hey!!!,
I set up a guitar playing friend up with some schematic support on a simple SE KT66 amp. He's used a simple open baffle 8" EV speaker( MC8/LS8 ) and it sounds great. We limited the power a bit by making the output TX load lower( numerically ) at 2k and put in a 40% U-L tap and a 10% E-Linear tap.
The amp was A1, but one of the mods he's got in mind for it is to try A2 so he's sticking in a driver stage. It'll run a 6BK7 triode input stage, EF184/3 E-Linear driver and the other half of the 6BK7 as the CF to the KT66.
He's a power electronix designer, so it is also getting a switching supply...:) He's not fond of carrying around a traditional Iron design. The amp is on a small chassis, and there is not much to it. Quite a nice little amp I think.
cheers,
Douglas |
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