| DaveCan |
A long while back there was someone who was telling Ron I think, that he had a way of loading the fe108ez and was getting down to 20hz.. I wonder if this is it? this?http://stereomojo.com/Gemme%20Audio...akerReviewA.htm
What do you guys think?, pricey yes, but impressive maybe?
Dave:) |
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| vinylkid58 |
Nice looking cabs, a little like Sonus Faber. It would be interesting to hear them, good luck finding them in this town.:bawling:
Jeff |
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| DaveCan |
| I wonder if the insides are just like a horn ,with compression chamber and horn path, and then the horn mouth exit is vented as a reflex system somehow, with the V-Flex technology they speak about? Dave:) |
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| Scottmoose |
AFAIK, it's a mass loaded horn, pure & simple. The notion of a 108ESigma down to 20Hz though = a bad idea. Distortion, linearity, SPL issues... (need I continue?)
They don't appear to know much about turbocharging either, judging from their remarks. |
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| hm |
Hello,
6moons:
Convincing as the Vivace's bass performance was in terms of extension (e.g. unheard of kettledrum from this type of speaker), it wasn't flawless. I don't mean that it suffered from the problems typical of a poorly integrated subwoofer - far from that. But there was an element that sent messages to the brain that the lowest bass notes seemed spliced to the remainder of the bass and emanated from the speaker as though on a second wave rather than as a continuous downward extension of the midrange. While the bass appears full range, it's not the kind of powerful bass of a bigger speaker descending slowly and smoothly into the basement.
smells like dynamic compression,
because the driver has an Xmax of 0,28 mm,
fullrange max. 0,3 W, nothing! even in a horn.
http://www.fostexspeaker.de/fullran...gma/fe108ez.pdf |
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| DaveCan |
Yes, I just thought it may be connected to the person that said they were working on a special way of loading or something.. I can't find it anywhere,but I think it was back when RonC was talking about working on a H108 enclosure, and this person posted there a few times with some interesting claims, can't remember it all or even find it..
Dave:) |
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| Godzilla |
>>> who all remembers how that went?
No, i don't remember? What happened?
I don't know which is less of a good idea... placing crossovers in critical ranges or loading a 4 inch driver to 20hz? |
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| Bluto |
Did any of you guys play the 'clip'?
I listened to it on just my A.L. 2.1 Computer speaks and bass was impressive.
I was surprised considering size of driver.
Need to see the guts.
Bluto |
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| rjbond3rd |
Hmm, well the Stereomojo clips are cool but as they are rips from CD, I'm not sure what they have to do with the speaker in question.
With regard to the Stereomojo review, I don't know why the reviewer states the 20Hz bass claim but then apparently does not test the claim by playing a 20Hz test tone? Did I miss something?!
Call me Ebenezer Scrooge, but for me, the sexier the speaker looks, the more skeptical I would be of the claims. If the sound is really so great, why add all the expensive and sonically meaningless eye-candy? If it does 20Hz, who cares what it looks like?! |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bluto
Did any of you guys play the 'clip'?
I listened to it on just my A.L. 2.1 Computer speaks and bass was impressive.
I was surprised considering size of driver.
Need to see the guts.
Bluto |
Those are just a couple of pieces of music they used in the review. Nothing whatsoever to do with the speaker. |
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| chrisb |
| quote: | Originally posted by Godzilla
>>> who all remembers how that went?
No, i don't remember? What happened?
I don't know which is less of a good idea... placing crossovers in critical ranges or loading a 4 inch driver to 20hz? |
Well, Jeff - I think Mike Lavorgna's 2 part review on 6Moons of both versions of the Atelier First Horn in the above link speaks volumes.
Since copyright applies, I won't quote him out of context; but I can summarize my personal impression of the review as "an earnest attempt, but perhaps too eager to bring an incomplete design to market, and in the final analysis even with the band-aid, missed by (at least) THAT much"
As for the Vivace, 20Hz in room from an FE108EZ, with a rated sensitivity of 92dB? These pretty boys may well deliver satisfying music indeed, but it sounds like some wishful thinking as far as Gemme's "specifications" are concerned, even in a room the recommended size of 100-200sq ft. As any DIYer who's played with Fostex drivers for long can attest, "enthusiast and optimistic" specs are not at all uncommon in this market, but any speaker designer who (claims they) can bend the basic laws of physics this much deserves recognition, if not a patent.
Regarding the styling and finishing of the cabinets, I quite like the look, and I don't think resources spent there necessarily indicate an attempt to cover up deficiencies elsewhere.
More restraint in the claims and advertising copy could certainly temper the reaction of those of us who've seen hundreds of "revolutionary" designs come and go, buy I guess in the modern era of severely limited opportunities for interested music lovers to personally experience any of this gear, our attention has to be grabbed somehow. |
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| rjbond3rd |
| quote: | | Originally posted by chrisb if not a patent. |
Hahahaha! |
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| DaveCan |
I couldn't find it, thanks for fishing it back from the depths, you are the master:worship:
Dave:) |
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| Scottmoose |
You're welcome.
Also, never cease to remember that the first Gemme Audio speaker, which was so 'nerve-wrecking' for them to design, was in fact none other than a very pretty rendition of the completely free Fostex Factory design for the FE108ESigma available on their website, with layertone style construction & the pathway smoothed out. |
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| DaveCan |
Yes, what a bad business mistake that was :whazzat:.
Dave:) |
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| rjbond3rd |
| quote: | | Originally posted by DaveCan Yes, what a bad business mistake that was... |
Hi DaveCan, wait, how come? |
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| DaveCan |
Because it was basically a copy of the diy Fostex plan all fancied up, and most?, would not use that cab in the first place..
Dave:) |
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| rjbond3rd |
| Hi DaveCan, aha! Thank you for that, sir! |
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| Scottmoose |
Trying to be completely fair about this, I don't think anyone here would have anything but respect for the superb quality of the workmanship in that original Gemme Audio cabinet. And it's also true to say that something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it, and we are not the market they were aimed at.
I think what made my, and a few other hackles rise, was primarily some of the daft remarks made about these boxes ('nerve-wrecking' to design, when they'd simply smoothed out a freebie plan from the Fostex site etc.) The price was also very high for such a small cab., especially one which was not really a dedicated design. YMMV as ever of course. |
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| blumenco |
It is a nice looking cabinet, and despite a designer's best efforts, many speaker buyers are very concerned, sometimes overly so with straight up looks.
I ain't gonna lie, some of my designs were not so nerve racking to design as to refine... (many were common sense evolutions of Nagaoka designs or simple bass reflex, BIB or TL. built well, damped minimally).
Also, having built a few designs for the 108, and playing with them in alot of different rooms, it is NOT a great idea to drive the poor thing too low. Want an easy way to get 20hz out of it anyways? make a long BIB. That is what I did. Measured. Sure the thing hits 20hz. The phase of the bass flip flops a few times before it gets to 20hz, no matter the horn design. May as well use a subwoofer and deal with that set of compromises.
It is like asking that "pretty little Japanese [albiet Chinese made] butterfly" (from one review) to act like an elephant. Not gonna happen.
Who really WANTS 20hz anyways? I mean geez. Has anyone really LOOKED at what is even on most recordings? An honest and textured 40hz is REALLY deep bass to me. the 108 at a stretch will hit 40. better too cut it off at 50 and save the spare change for crescendos. 30hz is super deep trance electronica bass. Fun, yes, but it is the realm of large full rangers, IMO. Even then, if there was a single reason the larger full rangers are so great is the midrange dynamics, (also IMO).
Design wise, I think it is better to get the ultra top sounding good than the ultra bottom, musically speaking.
I built a sub for a while in one of my systems that hit a well adjusted 20 in room easy shmeazy. It was a nice effect for some music but ultimately I found it to be unnecessary, almost annoying extention. It was better to get the 80-120hz region sounding really happy and strong. That is what ultimately makes most people happy while listening to music.
I have been meaning to post the plans on this forum for a while, but I somehow forgot to take pictures of it before I took off for Japan or save my version of the plans. It was an adaptation of the Nagaoka "Cobra" for single FE103e. For serious tiny driver performance, look no further. It is alot of speaker to play with in room, and disappears like a sumgun.
I had wanted for ages to build a "proof" pair of FE103e horns. Proving the real virtues of this little driver. ESPECIALLY in the bass range. Well implimented, I like the 103 more than the 83/7,85,108 or even the 126/7. They are just plain easier to listen to than the other drivers (IM(humble)O). Plan was to have Dave Dlugos modify the drivers in order to see outerspace for a few hundred bucks.
Course, working at Feastrex now, I should change that to: "parts of outerspace." Regarding magnetic circuits, there really is no replacement for displacement...
-Clark |
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| chrisb |
Clark:
Terry would have loved to play in your new sandbox - congratulations!
Scott:
'struth dude - any of us hack builders (myself included - to paraphrase Terry Olson notes - nothing says DIY like Bondo or veneer ), or true craftsmen would acknowledge - there's a lot of time and skill evident in the Gemme enclosures. And who of us have heard them to comment on the results one way or the other?
What we could do without is the purple prose and inane "engineering bafflespeak". |
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| Scottmoose |
Right. It's the waffle rather than the speakers per se that really got my goat. Extremely expensive though they were for a modified, very nice implementation of a freebie DIY design, I doubt there was anything wrong with them sonically, within their limitations of course.
I reckon anyone who builds the Factory FE108ESigma cabinet will have an excellent idea of what they sound like... the Gemme cabs. will simple have more midrange / HF leakage out the terminus due to them smoothing the horn path out & maybe a whisker more gain. I suspect that's why they opted to finish the inside of the terminus with leather -to damp out some of the higher frequencies escaping, and it's a suitably luxurious material. OTOH, I imagine box noise would be a complete non-issue as they're effectively solid slabs of MDF. Swings & roundabouts as always. |
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| rjbond3rd |
| HDF + plywood + veneer + black lacquer + chrome + curves + swept-back profile, sprayed with polyester finish, dried in an oven, boxed up, inventoried, invoiced, shipped out, tracked, delivered, unboxed, set up, and eventually sold on Augiogon before finally ending up in a landfill. |
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| DaveCan |
| quote: | Originally posted by rjbond3rd
HDF + plywood + veneer + black lacquer + chrome + curves + swept-back profile, sprayed with polyester finish, dried in an oven, boxed up, inventoried, invoiced, shipped out, tracked, delivered, unboxed, set up, and eventually sold on Augiogon before finally ending up in a landfill. |
Do you mean you owned those speakers or developed them? I don't get it?
Just to clear my intention with this thread, I wasn't trying to trash Gemme at all. I was just trying to see if the old posts I remembered were connected to this loudspeaker company, because when I read about it, I got reminded of the old RobertG posts etc, and also I wanted to see what more knowledgeable people than myself thought.
Anyhow, they clearly can build a very beautiful cab that looks'' top notch''. As they are fellow countrymen I wish them nothing but success and prosperity..
Dave:) |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by blumenco
The phase of the bass flip flops a few times before it gets to 20hz, no matter the horn design. May as well use a subwoofer and deal with that set of compromises. |
Impedance curve of said box. Says more about its LF behavior than a FR Note that the primamry tuning is just under 100 Hz.
Clark... cool to hear you are working at Feastrex now...
dave |
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| rjbond3rd |
Hi DaveCan, I apologize for hijacking and distorting the spirit of your thread. I'm the proud descendent of immigrants from Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island (French settlers of Mischouche, St. Peters, Tignish). They emigrated to Boston in the late 1800's and I was born three generations later. I've spent a lot of time in Windsor and Hamilton, because I used to commute between Ann Arbor and Boston.
I only meant to say that the more high-endish manufactured speakers I see, the less I think "a craftsman made this" and the more I think "consumerism" and "volatile organic compounds" and "environmental impact" etc. That's what impresses me about the DIY stuff I've seen -- it's a level beyond what manufacturers seem ready / willing / able to produce, and it forces you to personally deal with the toxicity of the ingredients. However, I cop to being OT and for that, I apologize. |
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| DaveCan |
No apologizing needed at all, I understand what you mean now, and agree in many ways, thanks..
The diy stuff here abouts is very impressive. I very much agree and thankful for the many here(you know who you are) who provide so many designs and education.
Dave:) |
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| blumenco |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
Impedance curve of said box. Says more about its LF behavior than a FR Note that the primamry tuning is just under 100 Hz.
Clark... cool to hear you are working at Feastrex now...
dave |
Yeah, it is really fun. As Chris has mentioned on the other thread, Feastrex really are very nice, incredibly hard working people. The real deal. It was an easy choice to join their team.
As the days roll on, they have made it even easier for me to consider staying here long term by feeding me several "Japanese delicacies" like nato (slimy fermented soybeans every morning (actually pretty good)), raw beef tongue (delicious, actually), fermented squid in salt and drowned in some kinda pink sauce (NOT my favorite), oh, and drum roll please: pigs feet "good for the health." right...
There is alot, perhaps too much swimming around in my head right now to give a real "1st report." (especially after hearing Miles Davis "something else" from 1st or second copy master tape through field coil speakers). This is something else somewhere else.
But suffice it to say, it is enjoyable work, and even more enjoyable people to work with. If I have the aptitude to be trained well enough, and the culture and language thing works out I could see myself doing this for quite a while. Not too far off from what you do: tedious, delicate, and unfathomably precise hand work. day in, day out.
I am wanting to get my last few higher end "Blumenstein" customers' drivers modified by you, BTW so my soul can rest easy. Soon enough...
Sorry to hijack the thread.
-Clark
Thanks for the encouragement. |
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