| Jamesuk1 |
Hi Guys,
Ive been using smallish stand mount speakers in my 5m by 3.5m room.Ive been reading lots and lots of posts on this great forum about Fostex full range speakers.Have any of you gone from stand mounts to full range floor standing designs and what can i expect?
I realy love imaging and a realistic soundstage and realistic dynamics ,hense my desire for either the Fostex FE168E Sigma
or the smaller FE108E sigma .What do you think of Fostex's own cabinate designs.They have unusual steppped horns! Would it be an improvement to use a smooth piece instead of these steps.
My main question is which box to build for my room , the 108 or the 168 sigma.I dont want to have an over big unfocused sound,as i said i like a nice stereo image.Bass, i like well defined too....many thanks ...james:) |
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| graaf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamesuk1
Hi Guys,
Ive been using smallish stand mount speakers in my 5m by 3.5m room.Ive been reading lots and lots of posts on this great forum about Fostex full range speakers.Have any of you gone from stand mounts to full range floor standing designs and what can i expect?
I realy love imaging and a realistic soundstage and realistic dynamics ,hense my desire for either the Fostex FE168E Sigma
or the smaller FE108E sigma .What do you think of Fostex's own cabinate designs.They have unusual steppped horns! Would it be an improvement to use a smooth piece instead of these steps.
My main question is which box to build for my room , the 108 or the 168 sigma.I dont want to have an over big unfocused sound,as i said i like a nice stereo image.Bass, i like well defined too....many thanks ...james:) |
perhaps You might find this of interest:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...threadid=123132
the picture of the cabinets I use with FE206E is here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...85&pagenumber=1
best,
graaf |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Thanks Graaf, My room is quite small but i cant position speakers like yours due to my hifi racks .I realy would like to try a BLH around 2 to 3 feet from the corners or closer...James |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | | I've been using smallish stand mount speakers in my 5m by 3.5m room. I've been reading lots and lots of posts on this great forum about Fostex full range speakers. Have any of you gone from stand mounts to full range floor standing designs and what canI expect? |
Yes. No crossover in the midrange = good idea generally & improved transparency. For the rest it depends on the cabinet as to what you're going to get. A floorstander can mean sealed, BR, TL, MLTL, horn / hybrid horn... all sound different in just about every possible area, so it depends what you value sonically, what the rest of your room & system are like, and what kind of material you play most often.
| quote: | I realy love imaging and a realistic soundstage and realistic dynamics ,hense my desire for either the Fostex FE168ESigma
or the smaller FE108ESigma. |
Imaging is something FR units do well. Soundstaging -well, it depends on the enclosure you use, and how you define 'realistic.' Dynamics... in the midrange, certainly. Huge bass transients in heavy rock, large scale classical pieces where you get large dynamic swings = no chance. Especially not with the 108. There's a limit to how much air a small cone can shift, even with horn loading. There's no subsitiute for multiple 15in woofers when it comes to that side of things.
| quote: | | What do you think of Fostex's own cabinate designs. They have unusual steppped horns! |
They're usually OK and sometimes worse. The ESigma enclosures aren't bad, but you can do better generally. Depends on how big a cabinet you can stomach really. Series manifold expansion isn't particularly unusual; Olson first suggested it in the 1930s & that style of design has been very popular in Japan for a long time, primarily thanks to the late Tetuso Nagaoka. I've designed quite a few myself, some of which are on the frugal-horn site at www.frugal-horn.com
| quote: | | Would it be an improvement to use a smooth piece instead of these steps. |
No. What I call a staight series-manifold cabinet is (or should be) designed somewhat differently to a more regular continuous expansion enclosure. Smoothing it out will loose some of its advantages without gaining you anything worth having.
| quote: | | My main question is which box to build for my room, the 108 or the 168ESigma. I dont want to have an over big unfocused sound,as i said i like a nice stereo image. Bass, I like well defined too... |
Well, I wouldn't build either, but if you must, I'd go with the 168. The 108 struggles when you get near 100Hz. I wouldn't personally use it without supporting woofers. |
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| hm |
Hello Jamesuk1
it seems you looking for a double horn like the Posaune
or Kornett, look on my homepage:
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| gurley123 |
HM,
I have heard bad things about running the speaker wire through the horn path. Seems like it would be easy to run it up the back and just through the top section for the forward facing driver and just a direct conection to the rear one. Have you tried it this way? If so, was there an audible or measurable difference?
BTW, I do like the rear wave shaping on that one driver. |
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| Jamesuk1 |
Thanks guys ,if the fostex enclosures arent very good,what are?
i think i will go with the FE168e sigma for a bigger sound and .......some bass....James |
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| DaveCan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamesuk1
Thanks guys ,if the fostex enclosures arent very good,what are?
i think i will go with the FE168e sigma for a bigger sound and .......some bass....James |
Hi James,
For a simple build the BIB's are really nice and provide the lows better than most of the others. Don't let the simplicity fool you ,they work really well and should be in, or close to your room corners.. Look to Godzilla's site zillaspeak.com.
Also for some more refinement but harder build than the BIB, look to Planet10's site for the BVR's and such.. Dave:)
Added: http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp click on Fostex
http://www.frugal-horn.com/ look to see what works for your driver choice etc..
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| hm |
Hello, gurley123
always glue a wire along walls, corners, the foto is not finished.
"was there an audible or measurable difference?"
no really, a double blind test shows wire is not listenable,
not measurable, but for example i prefer no binding posts.
less is more |
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| pebbles |
Hi James, I was in a similar situation to you, similar room and existing speakers were standmounts(Dynaudio 1.3se) I liked what I read on this forum about fullrangers and built a pair of BIBs for the 168es a few months ago. I think they are slowly pushing the Dyns out the door. They dont do everything better but they do alot right. They have a big sound stage and image well but not quite as three dimensionally although this may be due to higher frequency leakage out the mouth which can be corrected. The soundstage they have does'nt distract you with its 'hifiness'. They dont have the weight in the bass and midbass (may be an amp/cable issue?)but they do go very low (28-30 hz)and very cleanly, avoiding boomyness pretty well completely. And depending on what you speakers do in that area they may well be an improvement. They often make instruments sound very beatiful with rich tonality(more a full range than a BIB thing I guess) and are coherent across the spectrum giving a very easy and live sound. And they are incredibly dynamic, putting life back into even the most dreary CD's.
So they image not quite as specifically as my standmounts but probably more appealingly; bass....dont worry!, and there are big plusses in other areas.
As others have noted the BIB is an easy build and great bang for your buck but big: I'm interested in the BVR designs for this driver as well; they may be more refined and sizewise I may be able to live with them longer. Hope this helps, regards, Andrew |
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| Jamesuk1 |
Hi, pebbles , Those Bibs looks realy good but i couldnt live with there size. too tall . I have read about the Half Changs .Will a Fostex Fe168e Sigma work in it with modifications.Some people fit an eq circuit to there horn designs ,would this need one do you think?
I realy like the size of this half chang as it would look just right in my room.What do you guys think.I listen to Jazz classical some rock ie pink floyd etc,lots of vocals too....thanks ...James |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Almost sure now either half changs or might push the boat abit and go with the curvy changs if they are better,the curvy's frequency plot with 167e looks very smooth.Would the 168 sigma be similar....james |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamesuk1
Almost sure now either half changs or might push the boat abit and go with the curvy changs if they are better,the curvy's frequency plot with 167e looks very smooth.Would the 168 sigma be similar....james |
No, not as-is. I designed them for the FE167E. A cabinet is designed for a specific driver; it's generally not a good policy to try stuffing other drivers into them. Fortunately in this case, you're lucky because this type of cabinet tends to be quite forgiving of the driver. So, if you wanted to use the curved KimChi, you can: shorten the throats to 1.5in long instead of the current 4.0in & you should be good to go.
A point. Don't know if it's relevant or not to you, but worth keeping in mind: the curved-front cabinets utilise focused radiation. They are designed with a particular listening distance in mind (11ft or more). Closer & they won't work as well -you'll have a very small sweet-spot. These are selfish speakers. They aren't unforgiving, but they're really intended for one connoisseur. Jeeves -the bandy and cigars, if you please. ;) |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| I undestand this scott.I realy like the 168e sigma driver and need a good desighn to put it in.Shame though, realy liked those curvy changs.....i know ill find some thing in the end...James |
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| Scottmoose |
| See the edit above. |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Thanks Scott,ill go ahead with these then.My listening seat is about 10 ft away so i hope these will be ok....James |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| sorry told you i was new but by throats ,do you mean the triangle at the back of the driver and if not there's no dimension for this on the drawing...many thanks again ...james |
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| graaf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamesuk1
Thanks Graaf, My room is quite small but i cant position speakers like yours due to my hifi racks . |
well I say - move those racks! :D
move everything else too if necesary
for if You really love realistic soundstage, realism in general, this the solution for You
best,
graaf |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamesuk1
sorry told you i was new but by throats ,do you mean the triangle at the back of the driver and if not there's no dimension for this on the drawing...many thanks again ...james |
Nope, it's the (currently 4in long) throats, top & bottom of the reflex chamber.
They should be good down to 50Hz, usable to ~40 / high 30s. |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by graaf
well I say - move those racks! :D
move everything else too if necesary
for if You really love realistic soundstage, realism in general, this the solution for You |
Doesn't that depend on how you define 'realistic?'
Personally, I'm not that sold on omnis -I find the proportion of reflected - direct sound somewhat too high for my liking. OTOH, some find direct radiators / horns present too much direct radiation & too little indirect for their preference. All depends on what the individual values most. |
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| graaf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scottmoose
Doesn't that depend on how you define 'realistic?'
Personally, I'm not that sold on omnis -I find the proportion of reflected - direct sound somewhat too high for my liking. OTOH, some find direct radiators / horns present too much direct radiation & too little indirect for their preference. All depends on what the individual values most. |
of course I agree
but my proposition is not a typical omni, in fact it is quite the opposite, very few early reflections
it is a very different omni
this is why it is worth talking about :)
this is entirely new solution
it builds on Beveridge and Carlsson but it is something really new
best,
graaf |
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| pebbles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scottmoose
........... the curved-front cabinets utilise focused radiation. They are designed with a particular listening distance in mind (11ft or more). Closer & they won't work as well -you'll have a very small sweet-spot. These are selfish speakers. They aren't unforgiving, but they're really intended for one connoisseur. Jeeves -the bandy and cigars, if you please. ;) |
Hi Scott, this sounds like in my listening/lounge room with the speakers firing across the 11.5 ft width that the straight sided Changs would be a better option than the Curvies ? Also I am used to listening only 6 or 7 ft from the speakers, admittedly because that was a sweet spot for my previous speakers and I now tend to listen a bit further away with the BIBs, so would the Half Chang variation for the 168es be a better bet for nearer field listening? Thanks, Andrew |
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| Scottmoose |
| Either that or the straight sided double-vent versions would be preferable to the curved, in your particular case. |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Hi Scottmoose,a bit of a problem,the outside diameter of the fostex 168 sigma is 190mm.The baffle size of the curvy KimChi Chang is only 180.So what now please.Sorry for all these questions but i realy want this drive unit in this speaker .....if i can.. Many thanks again James |
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| Scottmoose |
| Either use the flat-fronted version or use your router to remove 5mm from each side panel at the driver height. |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Thanks Scottmoose ill have a think,im going to source some nice baltic birch this weekend....James |
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| Jamesuk1 |
Well i managed to find a good local supplier for the 18mm birch ply.They did a super job of cutting it into lengths too.
I have just about built the driver compression chambers and ive cut my sides to length.Plenty to do yet.I'd like to stain the birch to a nice cherry finish later on but i havent found a supplier for a cherry stain yet.....James |
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| DavidLewis2 |
| Would the Half-Chili Chang suit the FE168E Sigma (with or without modifications) or is it best to wait for the Ceinwyn design? Many thanks. |
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| DavidLewis2 |
| Sorry. I've re-read the post and spotted that the half-Chang is mentioned. Thanks. |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by DavidLewis2
I've re-read the post and spotted that the half-Chang is mentioned |
...as being unsuitable. |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Hi Guys Here issome pics.the first speaker is nearly finished just go to glue the final side on and veneer the back .Worked on the second one most of today Sat.Not long now .cant wait to hear these .They will take some running in though !!! |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| sorry dont know how to attach multiple pics |
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| pebbles |
| Hi James, they look well put together, nice ply too. I,m really interested in what you think of their sound as I think this design will be my next project for the same drivers. All the best, Andrew |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Hi Pebbles.They are taking awhile to build.They are glued and clamped a panel at a time to make sure i keep things square.These are my first Horn/Fullrange build and i'm realy looking forward to when i can finaly hear them.Yes i will post my progress and the resulting sound quality. Thanks.....james |
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| pebbles |
| Go James!;) Hope you are running those drivers in...they take ages but there are significant improvements as they do. Regards, Andrew |
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| Grumpy_Git |
James
silly I know but any chance of some details about your ply supplier, its always nice to find another decent supplier in the UK.
Sometimes I feel like building an online database for anything electronic, speaker and plain old diy audio related, just for us plebs in the UK.
I actually support UK businesses but competetion is good for quality as well as price....
Nick. |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Hi,i cobbled together a simple baffle and i have them running in in a cardboard box.Im using the Isoteck burning in cd on repeat.This is supposed to burn components in a shorter time but how long should i give them ?? I got my Birch ply from a local timber merchant.Harlows in Burton on trent Staffs,They also have a place in Derby too.I glued my final side on one speaker tonight...Not long now.....james:) |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Hi,Ive been away on Holiday for afew days so the build is abit behind !!Still ive nearly completed the basic build and have started to stain the cabinates.I have also built some nice plinths too.Im going to finish with a nice Danish oil as ive had good results before with this easy to apply stuff....James:) |
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| pebbles |
| Nice work James:) |
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| vitalstates |
Super job James
I hope they sound as good as they look.
Ed |
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| Scottmoose |
| Look good to me. Love those plinths too. :) |
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| Jamesuk1 |
Thanks guys,It means alot to hear you say .Ive been realy carefull in building these.I have to work full time so i only get an hour or two per night and abit at the weekend.Tonight i put the first coat of Danish oil on them and they are realy coming on now.
.....James |
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| Jamesuk1 |
At Last... Many thanks to Scottmouse ,this is a great sounding design !! Powered them up yesterday to my Push pull 6CA7 Mono Blocks.Vocals are very very detailed bass is fine good down to 40hz or so .The most astonishing bit is the treble,very detailed sparkley sounding,better than i was expecting.They have a bit of an issue with some recordings in that the midrange can sound alittle bit harsh.I ran them in only for about 80 hours as i went away so i think they will improve abitwith use.I know your Supposed to use SET amps with these so i might build one latter in the year.My only question being how long will these take to smooth out alittle ? They are so much more open though than my Revels. I'm hearing much more in my music than before.Thanks all you other guys who have helped me on this journey in the land of the Horn.......James
Ps, sound staging and imaging are the best ive ever heard from any speaker,great focus too fantastic stage depth...wow:D |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jamesuk1
They are so much more open though than my Revels. |
Revels mentioned in the same breath this week, Appogees last week... most of these Fostex boxes cost less than the sales tax on the likes of those :D
dave |
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| pebbles |
Hi James, I found my 168e sigmas BIBs a bit strident at times but with a few hundred hours on them now I have forgotten that issue completely. Even with a SS amp and up to quite high volumes I would now never describe any aspect of their sound as harsh...they are very smooth. I think it was GM who said about a 1000 hrs would do it, and even then I think they will probably continue to improve.
I'm interested in the specs of your boxes, are they the FE167e Chilli Changs with different port dims or are there other changes to the boxes?
How far do you find you need to be from them for the soundstage to gel? I have a smallish room...only about 11ft across and thats the way the speakers fire and I wonder whetner this design will fit sonically. Also can anybody tell me what the sonic difference between the half and full Chang designs would be? Anyway yours look really good James, regards, Andrew |
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| Scottmoose |
Other changes -James's are a different cabinet.
Completely different presentation with the single or MTM configured cabinets in height, general scale soundstage depth, imaging etc. 11ft width if you're firing across the room might just do it, at a squeeze, although I'd suggest more myself.
The Sigmas will take a goodly while to fully come up to speed -they generally need a little longer than the regular models. Glad you like them James. :) |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Hi pebbles,my boxes are a little different to the drawing ,i reduced the throat length abit and also cut my side panels to the shape of the top horn mouth as i think it looks less boxy.I sit around 12 foot away and the sound stage is realy excelent so i think you will be ok.I think its also important to sit at ear level with the drivers.That one reason i built the plinths ....James |
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| peterr |
Nice ones, James
I have built a pair of 168eSigma Changs myself:
Ceinwyn
Dimensions where given to me by Scott but from the look of things yours are different than mine (especially the reflectors are much further from the vents in your case).
Scott can you tell a little more about these differences? |
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| Jamesuk1 |
| Hi Peter.I was going to build the KimChi Changs but the 168 sigma wouldnt fit in the baffle because of the curved sides.Scottmouse sugested i use the standard Straight fronted Chilli changs with shorter 1.5 inch throats.Aparentley these cabinates are quite forgiving with different drivers.Mine realy sound supereb stunning imagery and depth.nice bass too ...james |
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| marce |
Hi
James love the look of your speakers, wish I'd used veneer on mine, instead of grey ubdercoat!
I'd like to add a view of the Curvy Changs (which would probebly be the same with the KimChi's). I have lived with a pair of Curvy Changs for nearly a year now, driven by approx 6-8W SE EL34 monoblocks. My current listening room is 4.5m x 3.5m x 9'6" ceiling. Due to its dual function most of my listening is done with the speakers on the long wall firing across the narrow wall, listening position about 3m (the wrong way). Even in this position they are a very enjoyable speaker, I think Scottmoose and Ronc would be surprised at how forgiving the focused sound is to both room dimensions (within limits) and placement. Though as a caveat, you do have to sit dead centre, go of centre and the sound goes almost mono. As a bonus though I can re-arange the room and place the speakers in the reomended position (due to the domestic mayhem I dont get to do it as often as I'd like) they are quite a listening experience. Its like having 8 foot earphones but with none of the enclosed fealing. As Scott siad it's a cigar and best port moment. |
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| Samuel Jayaraj |
Just when I thought that Ceinwynwas the perfect ticket to Fostex168Sigmas, I now read that theChilli Changs may be better.
My room will allow for the speakers to be 5 to 6 feet apart and my listening distance would be 8 to 10 feet from the speakers.
Which is the most suited design for these cramped conditions?
Thanks, |
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| badman |
| On curvy chang, since the curvature imposes a lip projecting beyond the front plane of the speaker, it might be very well advised to put felt or foam on the front baffle. |
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| Samuel Jayaraj |
| quote: | Originally posted by Samuel Jayaraj
Just when I thought that Ceinwynwas the perfect ticket to Fostex168Sigmas, I now read that theChilli Changs may be better.
My room will allow for the speakers to be 5 to 6 feet apart and my listening distance would be 8 to 10 feet from the speakers.
Which is the most suited design for these cramped conditions?
Thanks, |
Bump!! |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by badman
On curvy chang, since the curvature imposes a lip projecting beyond the front plane of the speaker, it might be very well advised to put felt or foam on the front baffle. |
Why would you want to do that? |
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