| Interconnects - heatshrink v Teflon tube v tape, gauge v length - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| otto88 |
Hi
Several of us here at the local Melbourne (Australia) Audio Club are soon doing Mark Houston's Silver RCA Interconnect Cables project.
http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Pow...ilver/index.htm
Mark's "recipe" calls for 3 silver wires (0.7 mm = AWG 21, from jewellers supplies here, c US $4/ m) which are sheathed individually; then a larger outer overall wrap.
For ease of building, Mark uses heatshrink for all four sheaths.
I lean towards Teflon because of its dielectric advantage. I have only a basic underdstanding, but electrical signals are propagated on the surface of a conductor.
Would that advantage more likely come in the *individual wire sheaths, or the outer wrap?
I intended to keep one of the two layers as heatshrink, to exclude oxygen.
Someone just then suggested Teflon insulation tape.
Some DIY interconnect projects have used it, available at your friendly plumber suppliers.
That would of course directly contact the silver wire, vs Teflon tube which would have to be a bit bigger, to allow the wire to be threaded through. So Teflon tape would both exclude oxygen, and may/ should keep the dielectric advantage?
most ICs will be about 1 m. I'm also doing one longer IC - 4 m (c 12 feet) - for that should I use a larger gauge, eg 1 or 1.2 mm (AWG 17 or 18)?
Comments welcome. |
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| rabbitz |
Isn't air a good dielectric and better than teflon etc?
I know you are trying to prevent corrosion as well. |
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| otto88 |
Hi rabbitz
> Isn't air a good dielectric and better than teflon etc?
Yes indeed
> I know you are trying to prevent corrosion as well.
Yes again . . maybe it'd be better to use heatshrink on the 3 inner sheaths, and Teflon tube on the outer sheath? ;)
Thanks |
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| otto88 |
Enamel may be a a good dielectric (I don't know), but if going enameled silver wire, where could it be sourced for c $5/ m?
Cheers |
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| jacco vermeulen |
| PTFE heat shrink. |
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| ssmith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magura
Enamel.
Magura :) |
That's a good suggestion. I've made some IC's copying the anti-cable recipe using 22ga and 20 ga magnet wire. Costs next to nothing! Would suggest you give it a try even if you make the silver/teflon design, just to compare.
:D |
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| otto88 |
PTFE heatshrink - for inner sheaths, outer, or both?
(and what is PTFE?)
Thanks |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by otto88
PTFE heatshrink - for inner sheaths, outer, or both?
(and what is PTFE?)
Thanks |
Google is your friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon
Magura :) |
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| Magura |
| quote: | Originally posted by ssmith
That's a good suggestion. I've made some IC's copying the anti-cable recipe using 22ga and 20 ga magnet wire. Costs next to nothing! Would suggest you give it a try even if you make the silver/teflon design, just to compare.
:D |
Great way of making such, unfortunately too cheap for some.
Magura :) |
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| otto88 |
Wikipedia says in summary
* Teflon-PTFE is a Polytetrafluoroethylene used in GoreTex and nonstick cookware.
* Teflon-PFA is a Perfluoroalkoxy used to make tubes.
* Teflon-FEP is a Fluorinated ethylene propylene
So is PTFE better for sonics?? or just more likely available (somwehere) for diy audio projects . .
Thanks |
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| otto88 |
maybe for the outer sheath, cotton sleeve would also be good.
Anyone know a source for diy quantities, c 5 mm diameter?
(Diy HiFi Supply sell it, but only 2 mm)
thanks |
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| Magura |
Maybe magnet wire could also be good. Available at every second street corner, twisted pair, like 20g, will set your bank account around 2 beers back. Heatshrink in your favorite color will set you back another beer or two at the same place you got the wire.
Magura :) |
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| ssmith |
this is the design I tried -- somebody's attempt to copy these.
You will need:
magnet wire
a cotton shoelace
cheapo RCAs
solder
they are so cheap that there really is no reason not to make them and compare them to more fancy/expensive diy designs you may be doing. |
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| dave_gerecke |
Hello otto88, you should be able to find teflon based heatshrink, PTFE, from just about any electronics supply company. Try the website of Farnell, Newark or RS Components. These are just three companies off the top of my head. I'm not sure what distributors you have on your side of the planet, but they should have PTFE heatshrink available. Check the websites.
Peace,
Dave |
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| otto88 |
Hi,
ssmith
Thanks for your info & the endorsement . .
I might do an IC shootout
Dave
We have Farnell and RS Components
Thanks, I’ll check the websites
Cheers |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitz
I know you are trying to prevent corrosion as well. |
Silver won't corrode in air at normal temperatures.
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by otto88
maybe for the outer sheath, cotton sleeve would also be good. |
Why not use cotton for insulating the individual wires as well?
For that matter, since the cable is braided, why do you need an outer sheath in the first place? Just cover the individual wires with cotton, braid them up, terminate them and you're done.
Why's he using three wires for an unbalanced cable? Why not use four and double up for both the hot and ground leads? Never saw much sense in using three for unbalanced ever since I first saw the Kimber interconnects back in the 80s.
| quote: | Anyone know a source for diy quantities, c 5 mm diameter?
(Diy HiFi Supply sell it, but only 2 mm) |
Reference Audio Mods sells the Audio Consulting cotton braid in 2, 4, 6 and 9mm sizes.
se |
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| otto88 |
> Silver won't corrode in air at normal temperatures
I think he meant oxidise, though I don’t know how much oxidation of silver effects conductivity etc.
cotton for insulating the individual wires as well?
(The idea I’ve now evolved to is heatshrink for the individual wires).
The advantages of heatshrink being easy to do, and preventing further access of the air.
> why do you need an outer sheath in the first place? Just cover the individual wires with cotton, braid them up
The outer sheath provides more robustness . .
> Why's he using three wires for an unbalanced cable? Why not use four and double up for both the hot and ground leads?
I’d have to try to contact him . .
Thanks |
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| Nordic |
| The outer layer should be watertight I think.... braided copper in cotton is dead short when you add the beverage of your choice... |
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| despotic931 |
-I think the third wire is meant to act as a shield and will most likely only be connected at source end.
-When silver oxidizes it is still highly conductive so that is not an issue, where as when copper oxidizes it losses conductivity.
-There was another issue with teflon and silver being discussed somewhere else on this site, it didn't have to do with corrosion, but rather with noise being introduced into the circuit...hmmm, I'll have to see if I can find the thread.
-I rarely have beverages around my audio gear, let alone the backs where everything is plugged in, including the 120VAC! I think cotton will be fine for the outer sheath.
-Justin |
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| zanash |
come on lets learn a little chemistry ......
firstly silver salts are as nearly conductive as the bare metal .....so do you need to worry about it ?
nothing is air tight .....especially not heatshrink ......
the main tarnish products on silver are sulphides nitrates and chlorides........these form the black light sensitive compounds found in film and of coures on silver wire. silver oxide is rather rare.
For my sins .....I build cables .......
why are you reinventing the wheel ?
use bare silver say 0.3mm in 0.5mm ptfe tube ....
iether run as a parallel pair or twisted ......I prefer twisted as it off some rfi rejection .....
never use a braided shield ......imo
try making two cables one with and one with out and see which sounds best .
Wire wrap wire is fine to a point ......but I recently had a sample where the enamel was pitted allowing contact across the strands ....so always sleeve as you don't know how well is been covered .
don't build cables with big heavy brass plugs ....use those with minimal metal content or silver or copper ....
oh yes copper oxidation products are all semi conductors ...not what you want to run your precious music signal through !
I agree with the above post .......cotton is very good ..but can be deliquescent or at least moisture attracting . |
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| Allen Wright |
Do any of you realise there is a whole book on DIY cables with some 30 tested and sonically proven designs? Some rather simple, some more complex, all sounding great.
"The Supercables CookBook"
Available at the On-line shop at www.vacuumstate.com, as well as 0.25mm diameter pure (4 9's) enamelled silver wire, at around $5/meter.
Regards, Allen |
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| otto88 |
zanash
Thanks for the chemistry.
Though note I'm not reinventing a wheel, this "recipe" was in the first post.
Since I started the thread, Ive heard two stories of ptfe being hard to use.
One, pasted here from a guy who was making ICs as a side business for a whileâ€
“teflon tubing, great in concept, is a beetch to work with.
First, you need to get the stuff above around 400 C to melt it and then when it does it's a rigid as a honeymooners deek.
When you try and bend the assembly having shrunk the PTFE you will typically end up kinking the cable assembly. After a bit of bending the cable will then fracture. Not very helpful!
I have gone about this conundrum in a different way.
1) Sourced extruded rectangular silver
2) Custom tooled PTFE hard strip insulation, similar dimensions to the silver
This allowed a very neat sandwich to be made (mightn't be a Subway Sandwich Artist, but this ain't too difficult). A single wrap around the outside is all it takes, plus a bit of normal heatshrink at each end to stop it unravelling.
Preference for three conductors with an instrumentation earth at one end (o/c one end, s/c the other to outer earths)
There is a spiral wrap I used as strain relief from RS, it comes in 30 m lengths. Handy as you can step on the assembly without rhuting it, and bending it limits the radii of bend.
Then insert it into your covering of choice and connectors of choice and youre done.
The end result is flexible, great sounding and also very low inductance (in the uH range). C is moderate around 100 pf/m"
You didn't have difficulty fitting silver into ptfe tube?
Cheers |
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| otto88 |
Allen,
I *probably don’t wish to spend Euro 40 for a book on the subject, its *probably more than I need . .
Though . . with Mark Houston's recipe, for 10 m of ICs (making several), 60 m of wire is needed. With the most appropriate recipe in your cookbook - is their one specifically for silver interconnects?
how many m of silver wire is needed?
And does the recipe explain how to ensure robustness (strain relief etc) with wire that is only 0.25 mm?
Thanks |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | Originally posted by zanash
why are you reinventing the wheel ?
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After a lot of experimentation i have come to exactly the same conclusions. A great recipe. |
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| Allen Wright |
I would not be surprised if most of the DIY designs out there didn't at least start from mine in the book, even when not acknowledged!
Our braided three wire design also needs three strands per cable = 6 times the length of the cable for a stereo pair, but doesn't need any teflon tubing.
Strain relief? They are not intended to be used to tow cars, but are perfectly strong in normal careful use.
Regards, Allen |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by otto88
> Silver won't corrode in air at normal temperatures
I think he meant oxidise, though I don’t know how much oxidation of silver effects conductivity etc. |
Whether oxide or sulphide, it won't effect the cable's conductivity to any real degree. You're just talking about a layer a few molecules thick at the surface. Even if it were not conductive at all, it would be like reducing the diameter of the wire a microscopically small amount. The wire's diameter would vary by many times more than that just from manufacturing tolerances.
| quote: | (The idea I’ve now evolved to is heatshrink for the individual wires).
The advantages of heatshrink being easy to do, and preventing further access of the air. |
I think perhaps you worry too much. :D
| quote: | > why do you need an outer sheath in the first place? Just cover the individual wires with cotton, braid them up
The outer sheath provides more robustness . . |
More robustness? What are you planning to do with these cables? Will they have to do anything more than sit quietly in a nice comfy home?
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nordic
The outer layer should be watertight I think.... braided copper in cotton is dead short when you add the beverage of your choice... |
Well, I wouldn't exactly say a dead short.
But if he's likely to spill his beverage of choice on his interconnects, then he wouldn't be any less likely to spill it on his components. So I hope none of his components have ventilation holes. :D
I think the operative phrase here is "a little common sense."
se |
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| Nordic |
| You see this is were the unexpected old Murphy comes in... I'm talking speaker cables now... just in case the two of us have our lines crossed... |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by despotic931
-I think the third wire is meant to act as a shield and will most likely only be connected at source end. |
It wouldn't provide any sort of shielding to speak of. To do that it would need to effectively enclose the hot conductor.
Now, if you use four wires and braid them and tie the pairs together at each end for hot and ground, then the cable would be more self-shielding.
| quote: | | -When silver oxidizes it is still highly conductive so that is not an issue, where as when copper oxidizes it losses conductivity. |
Yes, but let's put that into proper context.
As I said previously, the oxide or sulphide layer will be exceedingly thin and only on the surface. So the conductivity of the cable itself won't be changed to any real degree.
| quote: | | -There was another issue with teflon and silver being discussed somewhere else on this site, it didn't have to do with corrosion, but rather with noise being introduced into the circuit...hmmm, I'll have to see if I can find the thread. |
I think you may be referring to the fact that Teflon his highly triboelectric.
| quote: | | -I rarely have beverages around my audio gear, let alone the backs where everything is plugged in, including the 120VAC! I think cotton will be fine for the outer sheath. |
Well, I still say just use the cotton to insulate the individual wires and forget about an outer sheath. Unless you're planning to use the cables for something like oil well data logging. :D
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nordic
You see this is were the unexpected old Murphy comes in... I'm talking speaker cables now... just in case the two of us have our lines crossed... |
Ah, ok. Sorry. I didn't catch the transition from interconnects to speaker cables.
But let's think about this for a moment.
The most common connectors on amps and speakers are binding posts. Many are insulated, but many are not. The most common terminations for speaker cables are spades and bananas. None of these with perhaps the exception of BFA plugs, are insulated.
So do you think it's necessarily any less likely that an amp would have its output shorted by way of all these exposed, uninsulated bits than someone spilling their beer on the cables?
se |
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| despotic931 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
It wouldn't provide any sort of shielding to speak of. To do that it would need to effectively enclose the hot conductor.
Now, if you use four wires and braid them and tie the pairs together at each end for hot and ground, then the cable would be more self-shielding.
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I wouldn't make the cable with a braided shield anyways, I was just saying that that's what I assumed he was planing on doing.
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Yes, but let's put that into proper context.
As I said previously, the oxide or sulphide layer will be exceedingly thin and only on the surface. So the conductivity of the cable itself won't be changed to any real degree.
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Agreed
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
I think you may be referring to the fact that Teflon his highly triboelectric.
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Correct, although I know hardly anything about it...
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Well, I still say just use the cotton to insulate the individual wires and forget about an outer sheath. Unless you're planning to use the cables for something like oil well data logging. :D
se |
That is simply a matter of preference then. I find that an outer sheath can up the WAF, which is very good if my equipment wants to stay out of closets and out from behind closed doors.
;)
-Justin |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by despotic931
I wouldn't make the cable with a braided shield anyways, I was just saying that that's what I assumed he was planing on doing. |
Ah. Gotcha.
| quote: | | Correct, although I know hardly anything about it... |
This Wikipedia entry's a good place to start. Triboelectric effect.
| quote: | That is simply a matter of preference then. I find that an outer sheath can up the WAF, which is very good if my equipment wants to stay out of closets and out from behind closed doors.
;) |
Hehehe. Oh I dunno. If the wires are insulated with some nice cotton braid and those are braided together, I think it could have a good WAF without the addition of an overall jacket.
se |
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| despotic931 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Ah. Gotcha.
This Wikipedia entry's a good place to start. Triboelectric effect.
Hehehe. Oh I dunno. If the wires are insulated with some nice cotton braid and those are braided together, I think it could have a good WAF without the addition of an overall jacket.
se |
Out of curiosity what is your source for cotton braid? And thanks for the info on the triboelectric effect, good stuff to know!
And as far as WAF goes, I'll never understand why my girlfriend doesn't find cables sexy...:whazzat:
-Justin |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by despotic931
Out of curiosity what is your source for cotton braid? |
I have it made for me by an old guy down in Texas who has about half a dozen old braiding machines in his garage. His usual business is making cordage and cord sets for antique telephone collectors.
He's a rare find so I kind of like to keep him to myself. :D
Though if you'd like some, I'd be happy to supply it to you at cost plus shipping. It's 25 cents per foot. If you'd like a sample, shoot me an EMail with a mailing address.
| quote: | | And thanks for the info on the triboelectric effect, good stuff to know! |
You're welcome!
| quote: | | And as far as WAF goes, I'll never understand why my girlfriend doesn't find cables sexy...:whazzat: |
Yes, a rather common affliction. :D
Here's an idea. Why don't you ask her to help you design some? Of course you'd have to take care of the technical bits, but why not ask her for some input on aesthetics? Who knows? You both might have some fun!
se |
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| despotic931 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
I have it made for me by an old guy down in Texas who has about half a dozen old braiding machines in his garage. His usual business is making cordage and cord sets for antique telephone collectors.
He's a rare find so I kind of like to keep him to myself. :D
Though if you'd like some, I'd be happy to supply it to you at cost plus shipping. It's 25 cents per foot. If you'd like a sample, shoot me an EMail with a mailing address.
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Wow! That is a rare find! At the moment I am not in need of any as I have no plans to make any new cables yet. The last batch of cotton braid I got from an ex co-worker, he didn't care for the stuff and just gave it to me. However I am in the process of building a whole new system piece by piece, (my current one is kinda hobbled together and not even close to par) and new cables may make their way into the budget eventually, so I'll be sure to keep your offer in mind! Thanks Steve!
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Yes, a rather common affliction. :D
Here's an idea. Why don't you ask her to help you design some? Of course you'd have to take care of the technical bits, but why not ask her for some input on aesthetics? Who knows? You both might have some fun!
se |
Excellent idea! Actually, I tried something similar recently. I started asking her about what she would want my hifi set up to look like, everything from the equipment rack to the speakers and amps, and yes even cables. One thing she was very clear on was that she did not want to see the cables, but I was able to get her to realize that that wasn't going to happen. I suppose I'll have to try again, I would love to get her more into it. Right now she just enjoys picking out records (vinyl) and listening.
Oh well, at least I am lucky enough to have a girl who not only puts up with my hobby, she supports it! However if she had it her way, all the amazing sound would come out of one little clean black box, and that box would probably be hidden in a closet somewhere, lol!
-Justin |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | Originally posted by despotic931
And as far as WAF goes, I'll never understand why my girlfriend doesn't find cables sexy
-Justin |
Try to impress her with thicker designs |
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| otto88 |
A popular subject . . (at present I’m flat out building a shed + interstate visitors) so just time for one quick one:
analog_sa
> After a lot of experimentation i have come to exactly the same conclusions. A great recipe.
Are you referring to the linked recipe Mark Houston's silver RCA interconnect Cables?
http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Pow...ilver/index.htm
Thanks |
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| despotic931 |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
Try to impress her with thicker designs |
it doesn't matter how thick your cable is, just how good it sounds :rolleyes: |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by despotic931
Wow! That is a rare find! At the moment I am not in need of any as I have no plans to make any new cables yet. The last batch of cotton braid I got from an ex co-worker, he didn't care for the stuff and just gave it to me. However I am in the process of building a whole new system piece by piece, (my current one is kinda hobbled together and not even close to par) and new cables may make their way into the budget eventually, so I'll be sure to keep your offer in mind! Thanks Steve! |
No problem!
| quote: | | Excellent idea! Actually, I tried something similar recently. I started asking her about what she would want my hifi set up to look like, everything from the equipment rack to the speakers and amps, and yes even cables. One thing she was very clear on was that she did not want to see the cables, but I was able to get her to realize that that wasn't going to happen. I suppose I'll have to try again, I would love to get her more into it. Right now she just enjoys picking out records (vinyl) and listening. |
Yeah, I think it's all the disparate boxes and cables that keep high end audio from reaching the broader market.
Along those lines I've been thinking it might be a good time to re-introduce the old "console stereo" concept. Though not as big and bulky as some of the behemoths of the 50s and 60s. Something sleeker and with more modern styling. Ideally it would include its own music server for a "plug and play" solution. The only cable would be the power cord.
| quote: | | Oh well, at least I am lucky enough to have a girl who not only puts up with my hobby, she supports it! However if she had it her way, all the amazing sound would come out of one little clean black box, and that box would probably be hidden in a closet somewhere, lol! |
Ha!
Women. Can't live with 'em. Can't shoot 'em. :D
se |
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| despotic931 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Yeah, I think it's all the disparate boxes and cables that keep high end audio from reaching the broader market.
Along those lines I've been thinking it might be a good time to re-introduce the old "console stereo" concept. Though not as big and bulky as some of the behemoths of the 50s and 60s. Something sleeker and with more modern styling. Ideally it would include its own music server for a "plug and play" solution. The only cable would be the power cord.
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I agree, but the only big issue is isolation, I think the speakers need to be separated from the components. I would eventually like to put something like this together, but that is a project for another thread.
Getting back on topic, what is your favorite recipe for interconnects?
-Justin |
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