| Zen Mod |
result of one "for greenhorns" project on local (Serbian) fifi forum
Threshold NS 10 for dummies
you know few gents ( :rofl: ) involved ...... their names are written in bottom |
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| apassgear |
I see these guys in Serbia are having a lot of fun with the NS10.
More than 680 posts in three months!!! :bigeyes: |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by apassgear
I see these guys in Serbia are having a lot of fun with the NS10.
More than 680 posts in three months!!! :bigeyes: |
yeah ;
fun , chit-chat , whatever .........
you know - typical greenhorn "splittin' the hair" approach , but I can bet that few of them learned something ;)
borko tried NS10 (finally , just because he drew pcbs) , and revert it to jfet input instantly ;
Shiny is sorta "back of napkin" quickie , but good for task . |
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| apassgear |
| NS10 case must be one of the sexiest ever produced by anyone. Gee... this reminds me of Steen having one :devily: |
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| apassgear |
| This is Steen's |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by apassgear
NS10 case must be one of the sexiest ever produced by anyone. Gee... this reminds me of Steen having one :devily: |
:D
yeah - steen is pooftahhhhh! |
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| HKC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zen Mod
naah |
Hi Choky
Is Shiny the power supply circuit? I guess it is but how come the DC +24V is connected to ground?
Thanks |
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| bogdan_borko |
Shiny is a shunt regulator :
Schematic by ZenMod and pcb-design by me (Borko).
Here`s a picture: |
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| HKC |
| quote: | Originally posted by bogdan_borko
Shiny is a shunt regulator :
Schematic by ZenMod and pcb-design by me (Borko).
Here`s a picture: |
Hi Borko
Nice meeting you here. I admire Shiny is a great shunt regulator but my query is the +24V connected to ground and where is the J1 should be connected to? I would be happy if you can give me the answers and if possible post the pcb layout since I am interesting in this regulator and I am going to build it along with the NS10 Pre-amp.
Thanks |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by HKC
Hi Borko
Nice meeting you here. I admire Shiny is a great shunt regulator but my query is the +24V connected to ground and where is the J1 should be connected to? I would be happy if you can give me the answers and if possible post the pcb layout since I am interesting in this regulator and I am going to build it along with the NS10 Pre-amp.
Thanks |
easier to see now?
:clown:
J1 is either for shorting jumper or if you go nutz and want to connect choke there |
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| HKC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zen Mod
easier to see now?
:clown:
J1 is either for shorting jumper or if you go nutz and want to connect choke there |
Hi Choky
The schematic is great. Everything is clear now. Thanks
In addition, do you have the pcb layout for the NS-10 Pre-amp?
Best Regards |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by HKC
........
In addition, do you have the pcb layout for the NS-10 Pre-amp?
Best Regards |
Borko is a Wizz for that
I'm lousy for pcbs ;) |
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| Onvinyl |
Hi choky,
since the noise of the led's adds up, how is the output noise of that reg?
Rüdiger |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Onvinyl
Hi choky,
since the noise of the led's adds up, how is the output noise of that reg?
Rüdiger |
I could say - good enough for line stage (maybe even better than that) :clown: |
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| Onvinyl |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zen Mod
I could say - good enough for line stage (maybe even better than that) :clown: |
needless to mention, it's sufficient for the application.
I'm only interested in two things, let's see if you can guess what they are ....
!stop, wrong plot!
... I'm only interested in the numbers if you have them, though It will be very dependent of the actual leds, since their noise figures vary widely.
thanks,
Rüdiger |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Onvinyl
needless to mention, it's sufficient for the application.
I'm only interested in two things, let's see if you can guess what they are ....
!stop, wrong plot!
... I'm only interested in the numbers if you have them, though It will be very dependent of the actual leds, since their noise figures vary widely.
thanks,
Rüdiger |
well - I didn't measured it , but - If my memory isn't shot , Borko simulate da thing , during pcb construction .......
(don't tell anyone - I even didn't build exact circuit ;) )
anyway - once in a time I made similar thing for "original" NS10 thread here , and I prefer led reference to TL431 or zenner one ;
frankly - I didn't tried then (my fave now) LM336-Zx reference ;
maybe I will some day ..... |
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| ernesternest |
Hi Choky,
would be interested in a symmetric kind of shiny. How would the negativ brace would look like?
thanks
Ernst |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by ernesternest
Hi Choky,
would be interested in a symmetric kind of shiny. How would the negativ brace would look like?
thanks
Ernst |
exactly opposite :clown:
or - use two separate secondaries , two existing Shinys , and connect minus leg of upper one with positive leg of lower one , to have common gnd |
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| ernesternest |
sounds easier than thought. Thank you!
Ernst |
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| Rodeodave |
Hi Choky,
Could you please give me some enlightenment on The Shiny? I'd like to build two, one to power the B1 and the other one for a phono-pre. The B1 needs 18V@20mA and the phono-pre needs probably 25V@20mA. The transformer I'll be using has dual secondaries with 30Vac.
As far as I can tell the Shiny consists of three "stages". The dual LM317 regulator, a CCS and the shunt regulator with the diode string.
So the first LM317 (I guess by ON semi for lower noise figures?) gets it's reference by the second one with the output voltage determined by R3? How to calculate it's value or how important is it?
The the constant current source...how to calculate the desired value of the two paralleled resistors?
And finally the darlington with the ref. diodes...based on Christer's measurements here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...7008#post417008 I'm planning on using as little high-voltage zeners as possible (maybe 12V and 18V).
How do I calculate the resistor that goes from the base to ground and how critical is it?
And one last question...how big a heatsink will the shiny require?
Oh my, so many questions...thanks in advance for your help. :cheers: |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rodeodave
Hi Choky,
Could you please give me some enlightenment on The Shiny? I'd like to build two, one to power the B1 and the other one for a phono-pre. The B1 needs 18V@20mA and the phono-pre needs probably 25V@20mA. The transformer I'll be using has dual secondaries with 30Vac.
As far as I can tell the Shiny consists of three "stages". The dual LM317 regulator, a CCS and the shunt regulator with the diode string.
So the first LM317 (I guess by ON semi for lower noise figures?) gets it's reference by the second one with the output voltage determined by R3? How to calculate it's value or how important is it?
The the constant current source...how to calculate the desired value of the two paralleled resistors?
And finally the darlington with the ref. diodes...based on Christer's measurements here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...7008#post417008 I'm planning on using as little high-voltage zeners as possible (maybe 12V and 18V).
How do I calculate the resistor that goes from the base to ground and how critical is it?
And one last question...how big a heatsink will the shiny require?
Oh my, so many questions...thanks in advance for your help. :cheers: |
OK
look at atached schm ;
we can go backwards ;
needed volatge is set with reference Led voltage ( 1V93 for green led at 5mA ) + Vbe of darlington (around 1V35) ;
so - for 24 V you'll need (24-1,35)/1,93 number of leds ...... and that's certainly nice thing to use round number , just because Leds certainly aren't practical to cut :rofl:......... so - we can use 11 leds and be in ballpark with ~ 23V ;
exact voltage isn't critical , and all leds aren't the same , so you can expect that as rough target.
certainly for different voltages you can use red or yellow (even blue leds ) but I can leave to you to find what their working voltages are ;)
I like round number of 5mA through led chain ; that's also current which is available at base of darlington ;
so - R10 is Ube/5mA =1V35/5mA=270E (it's always the same , no matter what number of leds/output voltage you have )
current through Q1/Q2 CCS combo is set by Vbe of Q1 ;
say that you need 20mA for load ( your gain stage ) ; goal is to have at least same amount of current burned in shunt element , in this case darlington ; but - that's sissy current , so I'll choose 50mA to burn through shunt , so overall current CCS need to push is 20+50mA , so R8paralleled with R9 ( that can be just one resistor , if power is adequate and value is near standard ) shall be Ube/Iccs=0V675/70mA=9E64 ( now you can mix two of them to achieve that value ) , with dissipation in it P=I^2 x R=70mA^2 x 9E64=0,05W , so you can use any 0,25W resistor there;
we need 24V on output ; say that nice voltage across CCS is at least 7V ( mosfet and surrounding parts needs almost 5V across to be functional) , so IC2 must be set for 24+7 Volts on it's output ;
LM317 -ref voltage is 1V25 ;
output voltage is : 1,25Vx(1+R3/R4) ;
you have ref voltage between output and adj pin of LM317 ; with 180E for R4 we have current through that resistor of ~7mA and that is enough , counting that we have significant amount of current going to CCS ;
so - output of IC2 is 11V25(1+4700/180)=33V9 ; feel free to alter R3 to have min 7V +24V on output
7mA^2 x 4700 is dissipation through R4 ;place double-power(ed?) resistor in that place
do not alter values of R1 and R2 ; with them - preregulator stage (IC1) is set to have it's output exactly 1V25(1+R1/R2) =4V5 above IC2 output
so - output of IC1 will sit on 33V9+4V5 =38V4
you need to calc on -10% voltage on mains , and you need -say - 4V5 across IC1 to behave ......... so - you need (38V4+4V5)x1,1 =47V on input of IC1
hehe ...... shunt regs are waste of voltage and current and temperature ........ but I like them ;)
dissipation calcs are easy - mark voltage at each point - before and after IC1 , IC2 , then just multiply with current through each stage , then substract all dissipations ;
IC1 : (47V-38V4)x(7mA+7mA+5mA+20mA+50mA) = W
IC2 : (38V4 - 33V9 ) x (7mA+5mA+20mA+50mA)=W
CCS: (33V9-23V)x(5mA+20mA+50mA)=W
Q3 :23Vx50mA=W
clear enough ?
for other parts ( diodes and caps around LM317 ) - find datasheet for 317 and read ;)
edit :
sum of 3W of dissipation ......... nice piece of sheet Al is sufficient to cool down everything |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Manu
:worship: |
:worship: :worship:
(at your service :clown: ) |
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| Rodeodave |
Choky, you're the best. :cheers:
I'll post some pics of the twins when they are done.
What do you think of Christer's measurements? |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rodeodave
Choky, you're the best. :cheers:
I'll post some pics of the twins when they are done.
What do you think of Christer's measurements? |
what can I think , when good job is done ..................
Good Job !
:D
(you owe me half a page of writing for that previous post of mine ....... either on French or on Italian ..... your choice :clown: ) |
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| GuidoR |
Master ZenMod, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Your explications are very clear and very easy to understand (even for me!!).
I've made an excel spreadsheet that follow your formulas, I hope that it can be helpful for other newbies like me...
Olny a question: in general, if output voltage precision is needed, is correct to fine tune the LED's current (R10) to trim?
Guido |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by GuidoR
Master ZenMod, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Your explications are very clear and very easy to understand (even for me!!).
I've made an excel spreadsheet that follow your formulas, I hope that it can be helpful for other newbies like me...
Olny a question: in general, if output voltage precision is needed, is correct to fine tune the LED's current (R10) to trim?
Guido |
next time - be sure to include some funny smiley , when you call me a master :rofl:
anyway .... in this moment I'm sorta low in energy , flue is just massacring me , even without temperature ..... I feel every bone in my body ( alas , that isn't so bad , remembering sometime how many bones we have :clown: )
so - I can't check your xls file , but I can say thank you ;)
reason why led's are there , besides pretty good TempCo and low noise , iis pretty good voltage stability , regarding current variation ;
if you need slight voltage correction , just use some one or more leds with other color ; red ones have slightly greater characteristic voltage , so - you can try with any combination and number of red/blue/green/yellow .....
I hope I wrote something new to you .....
;) |
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| Zen Mod |
| after F5 , young recumbent builder decided to make this : |
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| Zen Mod |
I always wanted to post this picture
:rofl: |
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| stein2 |
| and with proper wiring, no proper box yet...:whazzat: |
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| jacco vermeulen |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zen Mod
post this picture |
Rumor has it that his cookbook "Gore-Man cuisine with anything that moves" was a bestseller in prisons of some parts around the globe. |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by jacco vermeulen
Rumor has it .... |
... what's up with my dark blinkies , ya dutchy fenstermacher ?
:rofl: |
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| Skorpio |
| It is interesting to see how much the NS-10 circuit resembles the NAD3020 power amp... |
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| stein2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Skorpio
It is interesting to see how much the NS-10 circuit resembles the NAD3020 power amp... |
Yet, I for sure would not connect it between my CD player and F5 power amp... :D |
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| massimo |
Hi Choky!
Maybe a silly question (but pls no silly answer!) or maybe already asked you too many times, but where can we buy the pcbs as seen in post 32?
I'm mainly interested on a couple of the shunt reg pcb. |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by massimo
Hi Choky!
Maybe a silly question (but pls no silly answer!) or maybe already asked you too many times, but where can we buy the pcbs as seen in post 32?
I'm mainly interested on a couple of the shunt reg pcb. |
well - I'm not responsible for pcbs ( I am just for back of napkin sketch of circ :clown: ) , but you can ask bogdan_borko for that ;
dunno - seems that zei is working on split version ( Shinyy , in my hysteric nomenclature :rofl: ) ; you can look in digital , Papa's D1 pcbs thread ..... |
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| GuidoR |
Hi all,
In case somebody agrees, here's the artwork of the Shinyy (:att'n: not yet tested!!!).
Guido
Massimo, in the next days I'll etch my sample: do you need one, too?
e-mail me :)
Guido |
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| GuidoR |
| The files (Express PCB) |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by GuidoR
Hi all,
In case somebody agrees, here's the artwork of the Shinyy (:att'n: not yet tested!!!).
Guido
Massimo, in the next days I'll etch my sample: do you need one, too?
e-mail me :)
Guido |
| quote: | Originally posted by GuidoR
The files (Express PCB) |
;)
btw - express pcb file is Isnogood ;) for any other proggie |
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| massimo |
| quote: | Originally posted by GuidoR
Hi all,
In case somebody agrees, here's the artwork of the Shinyy (:att'n: not yet tested!!!).
Guido
Massimo, in the next days I'll etch my sample: do you need one, too?
e-mail me :)
Guido |
Thank you for your offer, Guido.
No, I need a dual mono p.s. (2 x Shiny), not a dual p.s. (Shinyy).
I'm now working on my own pcb. |
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