| gedlee |
I am finalizing the design of a 10" two way system ala the ESP10 at www.ai-audio.com. This speaker has very high output and a very clean response and sound quality. I am going to sell it as a kit.
Questions:
Would people prefer to buy as few parts as possible or a completely packaged all-in-one kit?
The crossover design is specific to the drivers, which are B&C, and so using other drivers is risky and likely to be a disaster. But I can get B&C drivers at a good price and can send them directly to the builder. Would people want to buy their own drivers even though I can sell them cheaper than they can buy them? Remember the crossover only works exactly correct for the one specific set of drivers. It's not feasible for me to do more than one crossover design because they take so long to do.
I can get the crossover parts more reasonable than most people can buy them for. Would people still prefer to buy their own parts?
If a full kit were a much better deal than buying the individual parts would people prefer the full kit? Piecing out the sale means I have to charge a lot more for the individual parts.
A set of drawings would be possible, but the waveguide and foam plug are very difficult for the DIT to build. I could just sell the baffle, waveguide and plug and the builder does everything else, but this too requires a lot of competance in doing a good crossover etc. I don't just use a single axial response, my crossovers are optimized for the full polars - which is not trivial.
I'm just trying to get a feel for what people are most interested in.
Thanks for any input you can give. |
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| Lsharptec1 |
Dr. Geddes,
Most DIYers prefer to construct their own speaker enclosures.
So IMHO, your best chance of success with this new system would be to package all components, including drivers, crossover parts, waveguide, phase plug, input terminals, recommended damping material, etc, and supply a full set of enclosure assembly instructions.
Good luck with your venture.
Larry |
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| badman |
Howdy Earl!
Does it go to 110dB continuous? That's dangerous.....
Just kidding!
I'd be inclined to want just the waveguide, baffle, plug, and schematic/plans. You could offer 2 versions, the proprietary stuff only version (above) and a full on 'kit'. I also strongly suggest issuing a CD along with the kit, including some test/setup signals and extensive build documentation.
Some options would be:
Offer pre-assembled XOs and/or unpopulated boards
Offer flat-pack cabinets
If you'd like, I'd be happy to betatest the kit for you.
I saw you at THE show a few years back, but didn't get to hear the speakers, you were engaged in conversation and I hadn't seen the waveguide tech previously, so didn't have the interest I do now. |
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| Iain McNeill |
| Shipping all the wood for the cabinet will be expensive so I'd think you just want the hard-to-get/proprietary stuff in the kit. |
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| MisterTwister |
I would be interested only in waveguided baffles with plugs, ESP15 especially :)
I think these are the most valuable parts in the kit.
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| nullspace |
I would most like to be able to buy the waveguide, plug, and plans. Drivers and crossover parts I'd prefer to buy myself, as funds allow.
Regards,
John |
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| stuartk2007 |
| I would prefer a more complete kit. I don't see any need to buy my own drivers and crossover components since you can provide them at a lower cost and also ensure they meet your specs. |
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| gedlee |
Great suggestions.
Yes they will easily do 110 dB, without breaking a sweat!:)
Now, there is a limitation that you MUST understand. The waveguides will not be wood and have to be bonded to wood - MDF in this case. So the MINIMUM that I can supply is the full baffle with the waveguide bonded to it. (You could easily cut off the bottom for the waveguide only.) Options to this most basic part are simply not cost effective, especially since this will be the single most expensive part.
I thought of four maybe five levels.
1) Baffle only (non-routered edges) about 33% of total cost
2) Baffle and crossover design and parts about 50% of total cost
3) Baffle, drivers, crossover design and parts, about 80% of total cost
4) Baffle, and drivers, crossover design, about 70% cost
5) Everything (Routered baffle) 100%
(Baffles come with foam plug and driver mounting plate.) The baffle is 1.25 " CLD MDF. Edeg round is 1".
It seems to me that 2 and 3 are not worth doing because you may as well at least get the drivers too. 1), 4) and 5) make sense to me.
A flat pack for the cabinets is what I had in mind - I would never assemble them - that makes no sense. If you consider that $600 was my target price you can see what the options would be.
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| pinkmouse |
| Earl, I think you're making life difficult for yourself with all the options. Stockholding and order processing could get very complex. I'd go for two options 'till you get yourself up and running, baffle with waveguide and foam, and complete kit, your options 1 and 3. You can always add more choices, depending on how sales go, later down the line. ;) |
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| 454Casull |
| I sent you an email. Let me know if you get it. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by pinkmouse
Earl, I think you're making life difficult for yourself with all the options. Stockholding and order processing could get very complex. I'd go for two options 'till you get yourself up and running, baffle with waveguide and foam, and complete kit, your options 1 and 3. You can always add more choices, depending on how sales go, later down the line. ;) |
Thats not really true, because the drivers are shipped out directly from the warehouse, I don't have to handle them. And the crossover parts will be too. So actually the top four options are not really a problem for me. The baffles and foam plugs I have to make so thats where the big task is and why the cost is the highest. If I elliminated anything I'd like to elliminate the whole kit (thats a real pain!), but I wonder if this wouldn't seriously limit appeal.
Comments? |
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| Bratislav |
Earl,
would you consider including the plans for the crossover (active or passive) to integrate subwoofer(s) ? With 100Hz -3dB it is more of a requirement than an option.
Bratislav |
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| JohnG |
I'd be most interested in options 3, 4, and 5. My order of preference depends on total cost including shipping, which is not really predictable at this time?
John |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bratislav
Earl,
would you consider including the plans for the crossover (active or passive) to integrate subwoofer(s) ? With 100Hz -3dB it is more of a requirement than an option.
Bratislav |
The thing is that integrating the subs with the mains is room dependent, so there is no fixed answer. I may do subs, I may not, it all depends on the success of the first trial. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnG
I'd be most interested in options 3, 4, and 5. My order of preference depends on total cost including shipping, which is not really predictable at this time?
John |
I gave you the estimated costs on the basic kit, shipping costs would be about another $60 I would estimate (depends on where of course - East coast is cheapest, west coast higher). Thats for option 4. Option 5 would be a little more because of the extra weight. The big shipping is on the drivers. Good drivers are heavy and they cost a lot to ship.
Upstate NY would be quite reasonable for the drivers as they come out of NJ. |
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| Bratislav |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
The thing is that integrating the subs with the mains is room dependent, so there is no fixed answer. I may do subs, I may not, it all depends on the success of the first trial. |
I do understand that, and that is not what I had in mind. As you are the person who knows best what the natural roll off of the 10" in a suggested box is, you are in perfect position to suggest ideal crossover frequency and slope in order to integrate with a sub (with minimal phase shift).
What happens below that is - well - up to each individual I suppose. Multiple subs scattered around room, active correction, DRC, you name it. I'm just after the suggested high pass to mate with say 4th order LR on the sub end. |
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| djarchow |
Earl,
I looked at the AI speakers and are you talking about doing a baffle like the ESP10 with the roundover on the waveguide/tweeter opening?
As a DIY'r who doesn't like painted baffles at all I would rather have the waveguide etc mount just like a driver on my own veneered baffle. This way, all I would have to do is route the proper sized through hole and rebate for the waveguide and then mount it just like a a driver.
I am sure this would result in extra tooling for you but think this would give the most flexibility to the builder.
Kind regards,
Dennis |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by djarchow
Earl,
I looked at the AI speakers and are you talking about doing a baffle like the ESP10 with the roundover on the waveguide/tweeter opening?
As a DIY'r who doesn't like painted baffles at all I would rather have the waveguide etc mount just like a driver on my own veneered baffle. This way, all I would have to do is route the proper sized through hole and rebate for the waveguide and then mount it just like a a driver.
I am sure this would result in extra tooling for you but think this would give the most flexibility to the builder.
Kind regards,
Dennis |
As I said, this is not desirable since the rounding on the waveguide is critical to performance. Not doing it is just not something that I would ship. I want to sell something of quality. If someone justs wants a waveguide there are plenty of those on the market.
Sorry. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bratislav
I do understand that, and that is not what I had in mind. As you are the person who knows best what the natural roll off of the 10" in a suggested box is, you are in perfect position to suggest ideal crossover frequency and slope in order to integrate with a sub (with minimal phase shift).
What happens below that is - well - up to each individual I suppose. Multiple subs scattered around room, active correction, DRC, you name it. I'm just after the suggested high pass to mate with say 4th order LR on the sub end. |
Well the system as I designed it would come with a complete set of specs so matching a sub would not be a problem. But, as I say, I would always set the sub parameters in-situ and that includes the crossover frequency. There is no way to set this independent of the room. |
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| critofur |
| Pictures please. (or link to where we can see them) |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by critofur
Pictures please. (or link to where we can see them) |
They will be almost indistinguishable from the ESP10 found at www.ai-audio.com. The differences are in the construction techniques, but the drivers and the performance will be virtually identical. The ESP10 could never be made as a kit because of the complexity of the composite cabinet. The technique is very costly. |
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| stuartk2007 |
| quote: |
A flat pack for the cabinets is what I had in mind - I would never assemble them - that makes no sense. If you consider that $600 was my target price you can see what the options would be.
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$600 for each speaker, or for the pair? |
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| stuartk2007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bratislav
I do understand that, and that is not what I had in mind. As you are the person who knows best what the natural roll off of the 10" in a suggested box is, you are in perfect position to suggest ideal crossover frequency and slope in order to integrate with a sub (with minimal phase shift).
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Given the suggestions to use multiple subs in various locations around the room, all tuned differently (perhaps even different size drivers?), will phase shift be an issue? (Assuming it is even audible in the first place with most speakers and music.)
Mixing and matching from things like the Parts Express Sub-80, Sub-100, and Sub-120 might work out inexpensively. There is even an article on turning the 120 into a sealed-box with a servo.
Linkwitz's sub for use with the Orion++ looks competent.
There are also the ESP bandpass subs. Personally, I have always found this type of sub to produce one-note bass, but I have not heard these models at all. |
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| stuartk2007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by djarchow
Earl,
I looked at the AI speakers and are you talking about doing a baffle like the ESP10 with the roundover on the waveguide/tweeter opening?
As a DIY'r who doesn't like painted baffles at all I would rather have the waveguide etc mount just like a driver on my own veneered baffle. This way, all I would have to do is route the proper sized through hole and rebate for the waveguide and then mount it just like a a driver.
I am sure this would result in extra tooling for you but think this would give the most flexibility to the builder.
Kind regards,
Dennis |
It sounded to me like the waveguide and underlying support (the baffle) were rather closely mated.
You could probably trim off the excess radiused part around the waveguide, plus cut off the woofer part of the baffle, and then get something close to what you want.
Perhaps this would be a good time to explore the beauty of opaque decorative finshes? The Danish have always seemed to blend black and walnut in tasteful ways, just as an example. :) |
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| Bratislav |
| quote: | Originally posted by stuartk2007
Given the suggestions to use multiple subs in various locations around the room, all tuned differently (perhaps even different size drivers?), will phase shift be an issue? (Assuming it is even audible in the first place with most speakers and music.)
Mixing and matching from things like the Parts Express Sub-80, Sub-100, and Sub-120 might work out inexpensively. There is even an article on turning the 120 into a sealed-box with a servo.
Linkwitz's sub for use with the Orion++ looks competent.
There are also the ESP bandpass subs. Personally, I have always found this type of sub to produce one-note bass, but I have not heard these models at all. |
Obviously I was not clear. I have no problem with high pass part; I was just hinting at a possibility of not having to measure the box in order to estimate its Q and f3. If Q was 0.707 for example (I doubt it as box is on a smallish side) just another 2nd order L-R at F3 would make a targeted LR4 with minimal phase shift. If Q was not 0.7, one would need to make pole shifting circuit to get the targeted response before designing a mating high pass. |
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| FrankWW |
Hi Earl,
I live in an apartment. When I want to do serious DIY I have to borrow or rent workspace or pay someone to do the cutting for me. Can't run a saw or router in here. I can assemble and finish, though.
So my preference is to buy a full kit.
I'm sure my situation is not unique. |
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| tktran303 |
I think
1 = Baffle (+ integrated waveguide) and plans.
2= 1 + Drivers + XO
3= Everything except the 5 other sides of the cabinets |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by stuartk2007
$600 for each speaker, or for the pair? |
Thats each. The drivers alone are almost $600 for the pair.
| quote: | Originally posted by stuartk2007
Given the suggestions to use multiple subs in various locations around the room, all tuned differently (perhaps even different size drivers?), will phase shift be an issue? (Assuming it is even audible in the first place with most speakers and music.)
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I am not sure what phase shift you mean, the response at any point is the sum of the individual sources, and the phase is based on that same sum. There is no reason to believe that it would be any better or worse than a single sub. And I suppose its a tradeoff - large frequency response irregularities are certainly audible, so that has to be the first priority.
| quote: | Originally posted by Bratislav
Obviously I was not clear. I have no problem with high pass part; I was just hinting at a possibility of not having to measure the box in order to estimate its Q and f3. If Q was 0.707 for example (I doubt it as box is on a smallish side) just another 2nd order L-R at F3 would make a targeted LR4 with minimal phase shift. If Q was not 0.7, one would need to make pole shifting circuit to get the targeted response before designing a mating high pass. |
I see what you mean now. I would never use another HP filter like that. I want the energy below F3, which is why they are monopoles and I usually have a lot of overlap of the subs. As I have said before, you have to set the parameters in-situ. The multiple subs idea doesn't work unless all the sources are playing in the same frequency range. So in essence there is no "crossover" in the sense that you mean. The subs are blended into the mains, not crossed over to the mains.
In general the subs will LP at different point which is what acomodates the blending. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by tktran303
I think
1 = Baffle (+ integrated waveguide) and plans.
2= 1 + Drivers + XO
3= Everything except the 5 other sides of the cabinets |
You and FrankWW don't agree here. You don't think that anyone would want the wood cut? I agree with Frank that I think a lot of people lack the tools to cut the cabinets but have the ability to finish them. I think that they could be acceptably finished with spray cans. And assembly just needs a hammer and some nails, perhaps a drill. But cutting the wood for the cabinet takes a table saw and thats not something that everyone has.
I see your 1 and 2 but 3 is everything. |
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| kstrain |
Perhaps consider a menu?
a) Baffle, b) crossover, c) drivers, d) box panels; buyer chooses from list.
For example, I'd most likely go for either just a) or a) + d) as I have the DE250s, and bucket loads of crossover components.
I'd have thought the physical nature of the parts would allow such a "pick what you need" approach (drivers come separately, crossovers are a small box, baffle and panels are bulky).
I hope you are not in the end disappointed by the number of orders that emerge from this (or more positively: good luck!)
Ken |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by kstrain
Perhaps consider a menu?
a) Baffle, b) crossover, c) drivers, d) box panels; buyer chooses from list.
I hope you are not in the end disappointed by the number of orders that emerge from this (or more positively: good luck!)
Ken |
Thats a good idea, makes sense.
One thing that is very obvious to me is that people need to hear what a really good waveguide can do and how impressive they can be. When this happens there will be no going back. I have long had this goal, but the higher priced more complete systems were just not right for the market - which is dying fast. So in the end I hope its not the audio community that is disappointed at not being able to hear what progress through research can bring. (That's REAL research in acoustics and not Bose style research; in marketing.) |
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| Rybaudio |
Personally I'm only interested in the waveguide/foam, and not the 10" (at least right now)... the 15" or even better a 17-18" mouth. I have the drivers, can build the boxes, and use DSP for the crossover. If I have to cut it off of a baffle that's ok. You had these available for $250 each previously but at the moment that was too much for me. I've been looking into having a mold machined so I can pull off an indefinite number of fiberglass replicas (and then buy the foam from you) but if I can avoid this I would like to.
From what I can tell there are others out there like me, so I guess the point is that this might be a good "step" of the kit to have available. |
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| JoshK |
I think the baffle is the hardest part, that most DIY'ers can't produce themselves. This is the key element. Having the option to choose the flat kit for the cabinet will probably result in more potential customers.
Curious, what woofer do you use in the 10" design? |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rybaudio
Personally I'm only interested in the waveguide/foam, and not the 10" (at least right now)... the 15" or even better a 17-18" mouth. ... I've been looking into having a mold machined so I can pull off an indefinite number of fiberglass replicas (and then buy the foam from you) but if I can avoid this I would like to.
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I think that it will be awhile before these larger waveguide are available from me, larger just has limited appeal.
I am not sure if I would sell foam plugs for waveguides that are not my own, especially if I have waveguides available. The USPTO has not issued my "plug" patent yet, but I am confident that they will because there simply is no prior art out there on this application. If I do sell the plugs seperately they would not be cheap unless we worked on some agreement on long term licensing.
The "carret" in all of this, for me, has got to be the foam plug patent. I'm not likely to let that technology out without my being part of the game.
If I had a firm order for a number of the larger waveguides I could do them without a problem, but I'm not going to invest the time and money into making the tooling on a "hope" that they will sell. |
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| badman |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I think that it will be awhile before these larger waveguide are available from me, larger just has limited appeal.
I am not sure if I would sell foam plugs for waveguides that are not my own, especially if I have waveguides available. The USPTO has not issued my "plug" patent yet, but I am confident that they will because there simply is no prior art out there on this application. If I do sell the plugs seperately they would not be cheap unless we worked on some agreement on long term licensing.
The "carret" in all of this, for me, has got to be the foam plug patent. I'm not likely to let that technology out without my being part of the game.
If I had a firm order for a number of the larger waveguides I could do them without a problem, but I'm not going to invest the time and money into making the tooling on a "hope" that they will sell. |
Good thinking. You would never recoup machining costs selling to DIYers, the real merit of your waveguide/plug tech (from a revenue perspective) would be licensing. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by JoshK
I think the baffle is the hardest part, that most DIY'ers can produce themselves. This is the key element. Having the option to choose the flat kit for the cabinet will probably result in more potential customers.
Curious, what woofer do you use in the 10" design? |
Is there a typo in your first sentence?
I use the 10ps26 - a good driver. B&C know how to make units that take a lot of power without failing. The reliability is very good. For home use this may be overkill and maybe down the road I might use a lower cost driver pair, but for now I am going to use what I know. These speakers would be perfect for sound reinforcement where large size in not desirable. They can also be arrayed because they are so small. Using the higher power driver option yields a much wider application base. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by badman
Good thinking. You would never recoup machining costs selling to DIYers, the real merit of your waveguide/plug tech (from a revenue perspective) would be licensing. |
Licensing has always been my goal. I don't want to be a manufacturer! I want to do research, not manufacturing, but you have to sell that research to be able to keep doing it. |
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| Rybaudio |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I am not sure if I would sell foam plugs for waveguides that are not my own, especially if I have waveguides available. The USPTO has not issued my "plug" patent yet, but I am confident that they will because there simply is no prior art out there on this application. If I do sell the plugs seperately they would not be cheap unless we worked on some agreement on long term licensing. |
What kind of price are we talking here?... $50/ea? $100/ea? more? I would only need 2 now and at most 7 in the forseeable future. The reason I want the ability to make an indefinite number of waveguides is so I could build them into speakers and not have to worry about cutting them out every time I make a new box... the foam plugs could be transferred. I'm not sure how liscensing comes into that. I might sell some waveguides to other DIYers but this is no serious business venture... at least I hadn't planned it that way. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rybaudio
What kind of price are we talking here?... $50/ea? $100/ea? more? I would only need 2 now and at most 7 in the forseeable future. The reason I want the ability to make an indefinite number of waveguides is so I could build them into speakers and not have to worry about cutting them out every time I make a new box... the foam plugs could be transferred. I'm not sure how liscensing comes into that. I might sell some waveguides to other DIYers but this is no serious business venture... at least I hadn't planned it that way. |
This is not how I saw the situation from your previous post. Although what you say doesn't make a lot of sense. Why not just attach the waveguides in a removable manner?
The foam plugs do tend to deteriorate with removal unless a weak adhesive is used, but then they don't want to stay in place very well. You aren't likely to get a half dozen transfers out of them the way that I attach them.
If your volumes are this low and you don't sell them I don't see a problem. But selling them without a license would be a patent violation. Your selling your waveguides with my foam plugs would not likely be acceptable to me, at least not without some financial considerations. Otherwise what's the point of getting a patent? |
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| Rybaudio |
Let me elaborate since this wasn't clear before.
- I want to make or have made a mold from which I can make fiberglass OS waveguides of 1" entry and 15-18" mouth
- If I do make such a mold, I may sell some of the waveguides (no foam) to other DIYers
- If I do end up doing this, I may want to purchase a few foam plugs from you for my own usage
None of this constitutes a patent violation since the OS waveguide isn't patented (as per your own words in the Beyond the Ariel thread) and I'm not selling foam.
As for why I don't want to attach them in a removable manner,
- on the outside of the box I want to smooth them into the front baffle with some sort of bondo/wood putty so when I paint or finish the enclosure its smooth.
- on the inside I want to very rigidly attach them to the enclosure, meaning most likely fiberglass them into the box.
They aren't big deals really and if I end up buying waveguides I'll have to figure out some way to get around them. The practical info on transfering the foam plugs does answer a concern of mine... thanks. I may have to just bite the bullet and buy a pair of the 15" waveguides w/ foam if you still have them available. |
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| tinitus |
If I lived nearby I would gladly order a complete kit
:)
But you mentioned earlier that the 12" woofer with a bigger waveguide would be the better one...so why not offer that one and skip the rest fore later...or have I misunderstood it |
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| LAL |
Earl,
Once your product goes out the door you don't want to be bothered with questions about substitutions of drivers and crossover components. People will start building variations of your product and for better or worse the end result will have your name attached to it. I would sell drivers, assembled crossovers, baffle with waveguide and plug as the standard offering and then offer a flat pack with rest of the cabinet as an option. I think you would have less hand holding to do and have more assurance that the speaker will perform as designed.
LAL |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rybaudio
I may have to just bite the bullet and buy a pair of the 15" waveguides w/ foam if you still have them available. |
Thats clear now and no problem.
I don't have the larger waveguides and don't know when I will make a mold for my own use. Getting them from Thailand is not working out (as yet) and they are too expensive to have made here in fiberglass. My new process would drop the cost a lot, but the demand for the larger waveguides appears small.
As I said, let me know when you seriuosly look for fabricators as I may be willing to do this cheaper than your likely to find in the open market. Its all about tooling and volume. Ones high if the other is low and visa versa. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by tinitus
If I lived nearby I would gladly order a complete kit
:)
But you mentioned earlier that the 12" woofer with a bigger waveguide would be the better one...so why not offer that one and skip the rest fore later...or have I misunderstood it |
You understood, but quality doesn't seem to be a major marketing advantage, hence the lower quality, BUT LOWER COST 10. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by LAL
Earl,
Once your product goes out the door you don't want to be bothered with questions about substitutions of drivers and crossover components. People will start building variations of your product and for better or worse the end result will have your name attached to it. I would sell drivers, assembled crossovers, baffle with waveguide and plug as the standard offering and then offer a flat pack with rest of the cabinet as an option. I think you would have less hand holding to do and have more assurance that the speaker will perform as designed.
LAL |
There is no way to avoid this and your suggestion doesn't necessary make things any better. I think that it will be clear what is my design and what is not so I'm not worried about people passing off poor quality as my work.
I should mention again that I will not "consult" on substitutions. Thats a whole can of worms. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by tinitus
If I lived nearby I would gladly order a complete kit
:)
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As I get closer to release I may ask for deposits to get in the queue and I may put a priority on full kits and not baffles. I'm not sure how many that I would sell but if the demand gets very high the supply will be limited.
Anybody thats wants to put down a deposit now, just post $200 per piece to sales@gedlee.com on Paypal. That will guarantee you a system. In a couple of weeks I'll decide about the different options. |
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| MJL21193 |
| Shouldn't this whole thing be in the Vender's Bazaar? |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by MJL21193
Shouldn't this whole thing be in the Vender's Bazaar? |
I suppose, I just only ever go here, so here is where I thought to post. This is where all my discussions have been and where we have talked about my designs. It just seemed natural that this is where the people who would be most interested would be. |
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| stuartk2007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I am not sure what phase shift you mean, the response at any point is the sum of the individual sources, and the phase is based on that same sum. There is no reason to believe that it would be any better or worse than a single sub. And I suppose its a tradeoff - large frequency response irregularities are certainly audible, so that has to be the first priority. |
I worded that poorly. I was actually trying to say that I didn't think phase would be an issue. |
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| ttan98 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
(That's REAL research in acoustics and not Bose style research; in marketing.) |
There is NO Bose marketing manager or Research Engineer here to defend this statement!
I am sure they so some research(mainly users' sound taste) probably not as extensive as you do, in terms engineering/technical excellence. Clever/Smart marketing makes successful product whether it sounds good is another matter, it applies to other products as well. I think you know this.
Looking forward towards using your baffle and waveguide. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by ttan98
There is NO Bose marketing manager or Research Engineer here to defend this statement!
I am sure they so some research(mainly users' sound taste) probably not as extensive as you do, in terms engineering/technical excellence. Clever/Smart marketing makes successful product whether it sounds good is another matter, it applies to other products as well. I think you know this.
Looking forward towards using your baffle and waveguide. |
I interviewed with Amar Bose once. His comment to me was how hard it was to find good marketing people. He thought engineers were pretty easy to come by though. They do research. Its just that their products never seem to change, so I guess the research hasn't worked out so well.
I have a lot of friends at Bose. They pay their engineers very well. If only that were true at all audio companies. I admire that about them. But Bose like every other US audio company is in the OEM car audio business - everything else is a loser.
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| stuartk2007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ttan98
There is NO Bose marketing manager or Research Engineer here to defend this statement!
I am sure they so some research(mainly users' sound taste) probably not as extensive as you do, in terms engineering/technical excellence. Clever/Smart marketing makes successful product whether it sounds good is another matter, it applies to other products as well. I think you know this.
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AFAIK, Bose does do a fair bit of R&D, and their products are carefully engineered.
I personally wouldn't want any of their products, but I would argue that they are a far better value than many "high end" audio products. (And probably less dishonest too.) |
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| Cal Weldon |
| quote: | Originally posted by MJL21193
Shouldn't this whole thing be in the Vender's Bazaar? |
We agree so over she goes. |
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| stuartk2007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I interviewed with Amar Bose once. His comment to me was how hard it was to find good marketing people. He thought engineers were pretty easy to come by though. They do research. Its just that their products never seem to change, so I guess the research hasn't worked out so well.
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What incentive do they have to change their products? (Other than to change production methods and materials as these evolve.)
The person who buys a set of Bose speakers is making a lifestyle choice. They want some music-playing thingies for their home and Bose springs to mind because they market their products effectively. they buy based on size, price, and how well it matches their decor.
There's nothing really wrong with that BTW. People have different priorities and tastes. |
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| Brett |
Hi Earl,
I'm interested in Option 1 only, just the baffles.
I'm in Australia so shipping the rest is expensive and I can source B&C drivers locally, and if the HF drivers are DE250's as I think you've nemtioned in the past, I already have some. |
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| Brett |
Hi Earl,
Will it be OK to order in odd numbers, ie 3 or 5 for HT use? |
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| gedlee |
Order any odd number you want, like 99 or 199!!
Overseas baffles only makes sense for the reasons that you state. But shipping will be a major cost. If the quantity were large enough I could probably have them made in Thailand. Shipping from there to Aus would be much more reasonabable. |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
Order any odd number you want, like 99 or 199!!
Overseas baffles only makes sense for the reasons that you state. But shipping will be a major cost. If the quantity were large enough I could probably have them made in Thailand. Shipping from there to Aus would be much more reasonabable. |
I would love to order 99. Will you accept a 1 year postdated personal cheque? :)
Seriously, I'd like 4 or 5 (still deciding on the value of a centre for my 1/2 person HT setup). Even bundled individually and USPS air would probably be OK. Should I email you direct, or is it too early?
In case you aren't aware, the USPS online calculator is very accurate for quotes. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Brett
I would love to order 99. Will you accept a 1 year postdated personal cheque? :)
Seriously, I'd like 4 or 5 (still deciding on the value of a centre for my 1/2 person HT setup). Even bundled individually and USPS air would probably be OK. Should I email you direct, or is it too early?
In case you aren't aware, the USPS online calculator is very accurate for quotes. |
Yes about USPS, except I don't know the exact weight. I'm guessing about $50 each to ship. Maybe a little less.
Email me direct. I have already received some down payments so orders are processed in order of down payment. |
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| badman |
| quote: | Originally posted by stuartk2007
AFAIK, Bose does do a fair bit of R&D, and their products are carefully engineered.
I personally wouldn't want any of their products, but I would argue that they are a far better value than many "high end" audio products. (And probably less dishonest too.) |
What's this bose love-fest? Has everyone forgotten that they are:
1) Overpriced
2) Unethical
a) They sued consumer reports over the description of their speakers in a product review- they weren't bashed, but wouldn't put up with the bad review. IIRC it took the State supreme ct. to overturn an initial ruling for bose. They haven't gotten a bad review since.
b) They have policy in place to make sure you cannot compare bose directly to any competitor. Just try to get a fair demo at best buy.
c) They use a lot of DSP to get their speakers sounding okay for demo purposes, but don't point out the stack to you or offer it with their products at home- once your dollars are theirs, you're stuck with substandard product that performs very differently than in the demo
d) Their patents are nonsense, used exclusively for selling. The "Wave radio" patent is just a gd acoustic labyrinth. Gee, prior art from 1930 anybody?
What does their R&D amount to when their flagship remains unchanged for 30 years? But hey, at least they're not Monster Cable. Those filth give new meaning to frivolous litigation. |
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| pooge |
| please let's not get this thread off topic with a BOSE argument |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by pooge
please let's not get this thread off topic with a BOSE argument |
Totally agreed! Thanks
(I should never have brought it up!!) |
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| badman |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
Totally agreed! Thanks
(I should never have brought it up!!) |
Indeed! I hate to get this thread off course, but it's important to be aware of bad corporate citizens like them. They're not 'just' selling overpriced 'lifestyle' stuff, they're using trickery and unethical practices to do so.
So, back to the kit: Earl, is it accurate to say that you're pretty far along in this? You're taking orders already? If you're that far in, let's see some pictures of the baffles! |
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| chrismercurio |
As to Bose, they were actually saved from bankruptcy by entering into an OEM relationship with GM in the 80's. The story is most likely difficult to find online. I did a few quick searches and didn't find it.
The kit: It sounds very cool and I am very interested...what about subs? I'm guessing this is really a 2 piece system with the second piece yet to be announced. I like the idea of the smaller footprint as I don't think my spouse will approve of a 15" 2-way. "Not in my Living Room!"
C |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrismercurio
As to Bose, they were actually saved from bankruptcy by entering into an OEM relationship with GM in the 80's. The story is most likely difficult to find online. I did a few quick searches and didn't find it.
The kit: It sounds very cool and I am very interested...what about subs? I'm guessing this is really a 2 piece system with the second piece yet to be announced. I like the idea of the smaller footprint as I don't think my spouse will approve of a 15" 2-way. "Not in my Living Room!"
C |
Your story about Bose is correct (it was the late 70's), but enough about them.
I would not recommend the 10" without subs. Its not really full range. But subs are subs so I can't really be competitive in that product line. I may do some, I may not. Just go to Costco and buy some. Just make sure that you get at least three. Well maybe two, but most definately NOT just one!! |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by badman
Indeed! I hate to get this thread off course, but it's important to be aware of bad corporate citizens like them. They're not 'just' selling overpriced 'lifestyle' stuff, they're using trickery and unethical practices to do so.
So, back to the kit: Earl, is it accurate to say that you're pretty far along in this? You're taking orders already? If you're that far in, let's see some pictures of the baffles! |
I am taking orders and I have several, i.e. there is now a waiting list.
I will build the first non-prototype this week and I'll take pictures for the manual. I'll post them when I have them. The prototype just looks like the ESP10 (see www.ai-audio.com) The design is done and proved out. The baffle mold is done and being polished now. Its all in making the parts.
I'm calling it the Nathan - the baby of the family. He's, not 10 (he's 9), but you get the idea. |
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| dviswa |
Dr. Geddes,
Came across this thread just now. The www.ai-audio.com web site, I am sorry to say is just plain stupid. It simply seems to be in a contiuous loop and no matter where I click, I cannot seem to get in. Please post details, pics included of the system you are proposing, so that we can see what we are getting.
Thanks,
Dinesh |
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| JoshK |
| You need to click on "products" in the top right corner after clicking "enter" on the main page. |
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| pooge |
| That web site has a fixed spacing. It doesn't automatically conform to your browzer window. You have to scroll to the right to get to the menu with "Products" in it. Otherwise, you'd never see it and know it's there. |
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| peufeu |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
Would people prefer to buy as few parts as possible or a completely packaged all-in-one kit? |
$1200 for the full kit would be nice, I would be interested if I could listen to it, which is obviously a problem.
Also, please, you sell a design, so please, do not, I repeat, do not allow people to screw your design by allowing kit options that people can screw up ! This means, if you don't sell the drivers, then some people are going to use drivers that are not suitable, and it will suck, and they will post on the forums that it sucks, and the reputation of your design will be ruined, not because of a fault in your design, but because of a fault in your marketing.
So, sell complete kits, perhaps you will lose some customers, but those who get the kit will get it as it was intended by the designer and not some bastardized version which doesn't work.
Also, please deliver the crossover curves and all the data that is needed to implement the crossover in active digital form, an electrical frequency response curve at the driver's terminals would be ideal. |
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| robertwb70 |
Earl
are their (AI) subwoofers using you acoustic lever (or any of your other patents) technology ? |
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| stuartk2007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by peufeu
[B]
Also, please, you sell a design, so please, do not, I repeat, do not allow people to screw your design by allowing kit options that people can screw up ! This means, if you don't sell the drivers, then some people are going to use drivers that are not suitable, and it will suck, and they will post on the forums that it sucks, and the reputation of your design will be ruined, not because of a fault in your design, but because of a fault in your marketing.
So, sell complete kits, perhaps you will lose some customers, but those who get the kit will get it as it was intended by the designer and not some bastardized version which doesn't work. |
I've observed another designer that sells various things from plans on up to having 3rd party vendors that can supply an entire system. It seems to me that people stick pretty close to the original design, or they don't call them the name of a constellation.
I think Earl has to simply decide whether he is doing this to get working examples out there (with an idea towards future revenue from licensing), or he is doing this to help a bunch of hobbyists have a good time (and maybe just get great speakers out of it).
A simpler way of getting speakers out there might be to sell completed systems at cost (or less) to people who will commit to actively get others to audition them.
Helping out the hobbyists, on the other hand, could get the word out as well or better.
It's hard to say what approach is best. |
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| ttan98 |
The first few persons who buy the KIT should really give a Review on the product. This will enable all here and potential buyers to understand what sort of product they are getting or likely to get.
Maybe Gedlee you want to give them some incentives for them to write a review, good reviews will promote your product VERY quickly, possibly selling like hot cakes, just joking. Just draw a similar incident, CS2 product from Emerald Physics got very good reviews from listeners, its initial price of $2,000 a pair is now $3,000, I think he is getting lots of orders as well. I think it is a good product because I have designed and built a pair of speakers similar in design/concept to his(not a clone thank you) it sounds really good(with Gedlee's waveguide it will sound even better) and cheap as well.
Just a thought. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by peufeu
So, sell complete kits, perhaps you will lose some customers, but those who get the kit will get it as it was intended by the designer and not some bastardized version which doesn't work.
Also, please deliver the crossover curves and all the data that is needed to implement the crossover in active digital form, an electrical frequency response curve at the driver's terminals would be ideal. |
I don't think you can avoid this if you sell a kit. People can screw it up even if they try and build it correctly. This is just something that you have to accept.
| quote: | Originally posted by robertwb70
Earl
are their (AI) subwoofers using you acoustic lever (or any of your other patents) technology ? |
No they are simple bandpass designs. I did write the fundamental papers on these designs some years back, but they were never patented. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by ttan98
The first few persons who buy the KIT should really give a Review on the product. This will enable all here and potential buyers to understand what sort of product they are getting or likely to get.
Maybe Gedlee you want to give them some incentives for them to write a review, good reviews will promote your product VERY quickly, possibly selling like hot cakes, just joking. Just draw a similar incident, CS2 product from Emerald Physics got very good reviews from listeners, its initial price of $2,000 a pair is now $3,000, I think he is getting lots of orders as well. I think it is a good product because I have designed and built a pair of speakers similar in design/concept to his(not a clone thank you) it sounds really good(with Gedlee's waveguide it will sound even better) and cheap as well.
Just a thought. |
I think that the incentive for being an early adopter is the price, as you note. The price would only go up with time and could go up very fast if they were successful. Hence, in a very real sense my attempt to sell at the lowest possible price is the incentive that you are talking about. |
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| publius |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
The USPTO has not issued my "plug" patent yet, but I am confident that they will because there simply is no prior art out there on this application. If I do sell the plugs seperately they would not be cheap unless we worked on some agreement on long term licensing.
The "carret" in all of this, for me, has got to be the foam plug patent. I'm not likely to let that technology out without my being part of the game.
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interesting site and thoughtful papers gedlee. i particularly liked the work on perceptability of distortion, as linkwitz was also struggling with how his pluto sounded as good as his orion even though the distortion on the pluto drivers measures much higher than the orion drivers.
anyway, could you point me to where i can learn more about this idea of a foam plug? what does it do?
as for prior art, people have been stuffing all kinds of things in horns for a long time. "mutes" i think is what they are called for brass, though i don't know how similar that is to what you have.
good luck with your new venture. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by publius
interesting site and thoughtful papers gedlee. i particularly liked the work on perceptability of distortion, as linkwitz was also struggling with how his pluto sounded as good as his orion even though the distortion on the pluto drivers measures much higher than the orion drivers.
anyway, could you point me to where i can learn more about this idea of a foam plug? what does it do?
as for prior art, people have been stuffing all kinds of things in horns for a long time. "mutes" i think is what they are called for brass, though i don't know how similar that is to what you have.
good luck with your new venture. |
Thanks
Since I claim to have invented this (and there certainly is no prior art in the literature even the USPTO agree to that) the only source for their description is the patent application itself. I believe its been published - look it up. (Earl Geddes, Novi, MI)
The plug absorbs a lot of things in a waveguide that you don't want to happen. Thats as easy as I can make it. |
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| pooge |
| quote: | Originally posted by publius
anyway, could you point me to where i can learn more about this idea of a foam plug? what does it do?
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Try here:
Waveguide plug
Still don't like the title, Earl. |
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| gedlee |
Pooge
Thanks.
Hey, I'm not married to the name - what would you call it?
In typical patentese:
"Sound Quality Improvement in a Waveguide Through Selective Mode Absorption Facilitated by a Porous Media Insert" :)
SQIWTSMAFPMI for short. |
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| pooge |
| Maybe Waveguide Mode Absorber for short. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by pooge
Maybe Waveguide Mode Absorber for short. |
I like it. I'll use that - WMA for short! Could almost just drop the Waveguide and call it a Mode Absorber. The waveguide part is obvious from the application. |
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| peufeu |
Your patentese describes the thing very well. I wonder what title Microshaft used in their double click patent ?
You should use a name that has audiophile appeal... However if it includes the words "clarifier" or "purifier" I will personnally come spank you :D
Standing Mode Absorber ? |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by peufeu
However if it includes the words "clarifier" or "purifier" I will personnally come spank you :D
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If you are a French woman - please do! Probably not, but its worth a try
:) |
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| gedlee |
I may be able to offer the kits with two different sets of drivers, B&C and Eminence. The B&C are clearly the better, but the Eminence would allow me to drop the price by maybe $100. Any point in doing this? $600 vs. $500 - I'd pay the differential, what about others?
The kit thing is going well and I'll have pictures by next week.
People who only buy the baffle - will you want the edges routed? There is a potential problem with that and that is that the baffle is 3/4" thick but the corner round is 1" so there is 1/4" left on the cabinet sides. |
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| Patrick Bateman |
| Wouldn't the design of a 2nd crossover be a total time killer? |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Patrick Bateman
Wouldn't the design of a 2nd crossover be a total time killer? |
The computer time isn't a big problem, its the setup time to do the polars thats a pain. I'm already setup for that and Eminence gave me the drivers to try so its only about 1/2 day to swap drivers, and measure. I will probably do the design anyways, but I wouldn't "tweak" it in to the last 1/2 dB if there is no interest. Who knows, the Eminence could work better I guess. The B&C woofer is not ideal - but what is?
I've got some down time right now waiting for the gloss coat to dry on the molds (this has to be very hard in order to polish it). Then polish and pull some parts. If that goes well then I am ready to ship. First parts run is basically sold - unless I do a lot. |
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| peufeu |
| quote: | | If you are a French woman |
Ah, you got one right out of two :D
If changing the drivers halved the price, well, it would be worth it, but going from 600 to 500 and get worse sound ? No, thanks, I'd rather pay $600 and get the "director's cut" instead of the PG-13 version lol. Now, if the Eminence woofer is better... |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by peufeu
Ah, you got one right out of two :D
If changing the drivers halved the price, well, it would be worth it, but going from 600 to 500 and get worse sound ? No, thanks, I'd rather pay $600 and get the "director's cut" instead of the PG-13 version lol. Now, if the Eminence woofer is better... |
Problem is that I can't mix the driver suppliers. The business model doesn't work like that. |
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| publius |
| quote: | Originally posted by pooge
Try here:
Waveguide plug
Still don't like the title, Earl. |
Thanks for the link Pooge.
Interesting read gedlee.
I'm in the market for something like your kit and haven't found much other than the 4Pi. I was even considering something like the JBL PRX pro-series, but I'd prefer more bass extension (something like down to 35-40 hz, where I can cross to a high-mass, high-power subwoofer).
I was thinking about a DIY system with Beyma 15LX60 and CP380M (with either the TD250 horn or, more likely, the DDS ENG 1-90), but then I'd have to go active because I don't have passive crossover design skills. A kit would make life easier.
I look forward to learning more about it.
If I may, one problem that I see is that the high end will need to compensate for when the speakers are run without the foam. Over time, the foam may go bad or may be lost, and the buyer will be left with a speaker that is too bright. Will the crossover have a way to adjust for running without the foam? |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by publius
I look forward to learning more about it.
Will the crossover have a way to adjust for running without the foam? |
You can learn all you'll likely to ever be able to learn by going to www.ai-audio.com - the ESP10 is virtually identical to the kit, except the cabinet is wood not fiberglass and waveguide is a different material. More info than is this not likely to happen.
No, the speaker cannot be run without foam. But modern foam is not an issue anymore. I have not seen any change in more than five years and I expect 20 years without a problem. |
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| publius |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
You can learn all you'll likely to ever be able to learn by going to www.ai-audio.com - the ESP10 is virtually identical to the kit, except the cabinet is wood not fiberglass and waveguide is a different material. More info than is this not likely to happen.
No, the speaker cannot be run without foam. But modern foam is not an issue anymore. I have not seen any change in more than five years and I expect 20 years without a problem. |
So people who get this kit will also need to get two subs, something like the ESP BB Sub 15 in order to fill-in the bass (not the sub-bass <40hz, just the regular bass 40-100hz)? Are those going to be offered as part of the kit, or another kit?
Have you considered that most people don't have subs that can keep up with the high SPL of the ESP10? |
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| chrismercurio |
it would be great to have high efficiency subs to go with these, especially bandpass, though the boxes will be a bit more challenging.
C |
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| augerpro |
| Earl how do I contact you? I seem to have missed the email address. Also do you have a pair of 10" waveguides with foam available? |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrismercurio
it would be great to have high efficiency subs to go with these, especially bandpass, though the boxes will be a bit more challenging.
C |
I have sub designs, but there isn't any way to make any money on these as the value added is so small. I have to get $400 each for the sub kits and this is just not in line with the mains kits cost wise. I can't see how anyone would pay $400 for a sub when the mains are only $600. Maybe I'm wrong and I'll rethink this. Maybe I'll just sell the plans (like that has any potential!). |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by augerpro
Earl how do I contact you? I seem to have missed the email address. Also do you have a pair of 10" waveguides with foam available? |
E-mail me at egeddes@gedlee.com. I will be building waveguides with foam and mounting plates next week. But you have to get on the waiting list by making a downpayment. I can't promise a time on delivery until I know better the time it takes to make the baffle and I just don't have that data right now. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by publius
So people who get this kit will also need to get two subs, something like the ESP BB Sub 15 in order to fill-in the bass (not the sub-bass <40hz, just the regular bass 40-100hz)? Are those going to be offered as part of the kit, or another kit?
Have you considered that most people don't have subs that can keep up with the high SPL of the ESP10? |
If you do the system design correctly this is not a problem. By this I mean use several subs and the efficiency will be there. No a single sub won't work very well, but then they never do.
And because a speaker is efficient does not mean that you HAVE TO play it loud.
As I have said before, subs are cheap. Just go to Costco and buy three of them at $100 each - powered! I can't compete with that. |
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| publius |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
If you do the system design correctly this is not a problem. By this I mean use several subs and the efficiency will be there. No a single sub won't work very well, but then they never do.
And because a speaker is efficient does not mean that you HAVE TO play it loud.
As I have said before, subs are cheap. Just go to Costco and buy three of them at $100 each - powered! I can't compete with that. |
What calculations are you using that allow three Costco $100 subs to produce bass from 40-100hz that can keep up with this kit? Your proposal seems like a total mismatch to me. I would think that you would need two of these: http://jblpro.com/products/portable...rx/prx518s.html
or something similar.
I suppose that high efficiency has benefits other than being able to play loud, but you were poo-pooing Linkwitz and his Orion for its marginal SPL capabilities. Oh well, I suppose this isn't what I was hoping for.
Will you be offering your horns/foam inserts as a separate product? |
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| chrismercurio |
| I think people would pay for box plans, a driver (or 2), and a plate amp. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by publius
What calculations are you using that allow three Costco $100 subs to produce bass from 40-100hz that can keep up with this kit? Your proposal seems like a total mismatch to me. I would think that you would need two of these: http://jblpro.com/products/portable...rx/prx518s.html
or something similar.
Will you be offering your horns/foam inserts as a separate product? |
Having a lot of experince here, ONE 18" sub (the ULF18) is definately enough SPL for the large ESP15. For these much smaller 10's in a HT or living room three Costco subs would definatly be enough for 110 dB SPL - maybe not 120, but then these smaller systems won't do that either. These ARE NOT the large 15's, they are almost 3 dB less efficient and at least 10 dB less MaxSPL.
I think that your suggestion might be overkill.
I will sell the waveguides and foam plugs separately with one contingency - the full kits will take precidence. Hence, if I can sell all the waveguides that I can make as kits then there won't be any available as separates. At the moment I will guarantee waveguides if a deposit is paid. I may not do that in the future, we'll see. |
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