| Bryce H. |
Earl -
maybe a bit off topic, but do the AI products use the B&C or Eminence drivers? If I wanted a Summa, I assume the ESP15 would be the best alternative, perhaps the same? And if it has the Eminence drivers, would changing them out to B&C drivers require any crossover changes? Thanks |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bryce H.
Earl -
maybe a bit off topic, but do the AI products use the B&C or Eminence drivers? If I wanted a Summa, I assume the ESP15 would be the best alternative, perhaps the same? And if it has the Eminence drivers, would changing them out to B&C drivers require any crossover changes? Thanks |
The Ai ESP15 is all B&C. The ESP12 uses an Eminence 12 and B&C Compression Driver.
For all practical purposes the ESP15 and the Summa are identical. You could get them from either Ai in Thailand or me. I don't know which would have the lower shipping costs. |
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| MartinQ |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
The Ai ESP15 is all B&C. The ESP12 uses an Eminence 12 and B&C Compression Driver. |
Earl, what is the Eminence model used in the ESP12? Would it be the same one available in your Abbey kit or are you changing that to the B&C 12TBX100? |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by MartinQ
Earl, what is the Eminence model used in the ESP12? Would it be the same one available in your Abbey kit or are you changing that to the B&C 12TBX100? |
I havn't decided on the woofer for the Abbey yet, but I am leaning towards the B&C. We were originally having trouble with the 12TBX100 and tried the Eminence, it seemed better. But when we got our first shipment it had the same problem as the 12TBX100. The B&C is the higher performance of the two, but a little more expensive. |
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| DJNUBZ |
| Just curious if anyone has tried out these speakers with a low powered SET amp and how it worked out for you. My luck so far with my SET amp has been with little or no crossovers but these look like they may be a step up from the parker audio speakers I am using with my amp. |
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| FrankWW |
Just curious. Did you have crossovers designed for your amp?
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
Just curious if anyone has tried out these speakers with a low powered SET amp and how it worked out for you. My luck so far with my SET amp has been with little or no crossovers but these look like they may be a step up from the parker audio speakers I am using with my amp. |
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| DJNUBZ |
| the parkers have only a cap on the tweeter. Other speakers I tried did not have crossovers specifically designed for my amp. FYI the amp I have is a decware zen select. |
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| DrumDude |
I got to audidtion the Summa's today. Wow, I'm sold. I will post further details soon. I spent over 6 hours on the road today and too tired to write a complete review yet.
Bruce K |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrumDude
I got to audidtion the Summa's today. Wow, I'm sold. I will post further details soon. I spent over 6 hours on the road today and too tired to write a complete review yet.
Bruce K |
Six hours! I use to drive, alone, from Detroit to New Orleans, straight through, 18 hours. Coffee anyone?:bigeyes: |
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| chrismercurio |
| Worst I have ever done is a strait shot from Tacoma, Wa to Santa Clara, Ca ~14 hours after being up all day, then worked outside all day after arriving with no break. |
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| nycavsr2000 |
| quote: | | I got to audidtion the Summa's today. Wow, I'm sold. I will post further details soon. I spent over 6 hours on the road today and too tired to write a complete review yet. Bruce K |
Yes...all who visit Chateau Gedlee will be mesmerized and instantly converted.
It surely is an eargasmic experience.
Looking forward to your review.
Anand. |
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| goskers |
Bruce,
Glad to see that we are all having the same responses after a listen.
Science and research are thankfully winning out over subjectivism. |
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| DrumDude |
| Well I did unpack, mow the grass, trim and pull some weeds after the trip. but after some rest I am ready to post my review soon. |
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| Boris_The_Blade |
| Still have kits in stock Earl? |
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| DrumDude |
I have been a drummer and percussionist for about 30 years. I began looking into DIY designs when it appeared there were no mainstream commercial offerings that achieved what I desired for my newly built studio. This room is a shared space used for music rehearsal, my wifes dance classes, and recording studio. I wanted the accuracy and quality of a studio monitor and PA levels for music rehearsal when needed, in a single speaker. I have always thought if a speaker was good enough it would work as both and I don't care for the sound of most pro horns. I know this was a tall order and as I began reading about speaker design it was always a story of trade-offs to achieve the desired result.
I ran across Dr. Geddes information on waveguides and read this thread and others with great interest. I read several of his white papers even though some of the math made my head hurt.
When I realized I was going to be less than an hour from his place on a weekend trip I knew I wanted to hear these speakers. So I convinced my wife to stop by on the drive home.
I arrived at about 8:30am. Dr. Geddes was kind and inviting, even offering us a cup of coffee. I found out he had been at a big music festival in WI and didnt get home till 1:00AM. This impressed me on two counts. Firstly welcoming us into his home after a late night, secondly its nice to learn hes a true music lover as well as a scientist.
We went down to his home theater where we started listening to some familiar audio CDs. The first thing that struck me was absolute pinpoint imaging. The clarity and accuracy was astonishing. Instruments sounded like instruments, not recordings. I have been many recording studios over the years and have never heard sound this accurate, not the big soffit mounted JBLs or any near fields. Then he fired up the projector to play some concert DVDs. Dr. Geddes was in the process of replacing projectors so the projector wasnt ceiling mounted. This means my wife and I had to move from the usual sweet spot in the center of the couch. Guess what, the image stayed spot on. After noticing this I leaned even farther away from center towards the side wall. The image never collapsed. The levels were going up at this point. The amazing thing was everything remained so clear, the sound just got louder, sonic balance never changed, no compression whatsoever. We listened to some Cream and it sounded like Marshall stacks and Harke bass cabs were in the room. The bass was never boomy or muddy; it was like a bass player was right there. And the drums, oh my god, drums are the torture test for most speakers, good reproduction of sharp transients requires headroom. The kick drum was the most realistic I have ever heard. Actually all the drums sounded like a kit was in the room, cymbals were perfect with every overtone and nuance. Next Dr. Geddes put on an eagles live DVD. It had reached ear piercing levels by this time and Joe Walsh was wailing on his guitar like he is known to. As loud as the guitar was I could still clearly hear every other part with perfect stereo placement and detail. They don't appear to color anything. It would seem they are the final link in the idealistic wire plus gain theory I have heard touted as the perfect amp.
I wouldnt have any problem recommending these for use in any studio, even for mastering. They are the most revealing speakers I have ever heard. I also wouldnt have any problem recommending the very same speakers for use in any nightclub. I would think you could pair them with some high efficiency pro subs and they would kill every club systems I have ever heard.
I dont know what else to say except I Have to have these!
Bruce K
My wife's impressions follow below:
From a Womens view point:
First of all let me say that Dr. Geddes was a gracious host, inviting us into his home at 8AM after arriving home the previous night at 1AM.
I have worked in the music business for about 30 years and spent many a night in the studio with mix downs until I didnt think I could hear anymore. I was blown away by these speakers. I felt like I was sitting in front of a live performance! Several songs, that I have heard a thousand times, was a new experience, hearing instrumentation that I never knew was there. So, as for soundoutstanding!!!! I agree with my husband that these speakers should become the industry standard.
Now, from the female viewpoint of aesthetics, because I also love interior design and my husband is always trying to find ways of designing the function, but also pleasing to the eye for me, I have to say that I love the design! They are so beautiful that I wouldnt have a problem having them in my living room, or any room! They look like a beautiful piece of sculpture. In fact, there were a gorgeous pair of red ones in his living room that I would have loved to have in our music studio, but alas, they have already been spoken for.
We will be getting these speakers, as there is nothing on the market today that can even come close to their amazing sound. Thank you Dr. Geddes!
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| audiokinesis |
Enjoyed your post very much DrumDude, and interesting to read your comments from your vantage point as an experienced musician. I don't know what a Marshall stack or a Hartke bass cabinet really sound like, for example. That Cream dvd sounded awesome to me there in Earl's room, but I couldn't make the comparison to "how it should have sounded" that you could.
One of the things that struck me last time I was there was that even at very high levels, the sound never hurt my ears. It never got harsh or edgy or any of those things that always makes me cringe when someone goes heavy on the volume control.
And Mrs. Dude, thank you for taking the time as well! Your comments give a perspective that is all too rarely heard from in these forums, but which is of great interest to most of us. I expect that many of Earl's future customers will find your comments extremely valuable.
Duke |
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| gedlee |
The K's
Thanks for the kind review.
| quote: | Originally posted by Boris_The_Blade
Still have kits in stock Earl? |
I don't stock kits, probably never will. They are built on demand as I have no place to store them. I will be shipping very shortly. Have already shipped some waveguides. |
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| DrumDude |
| quote: | Originally posted by audiokinesis
Enjoyed your post very much DrumDude, and interesting to read your comments from your vantage point as an experienced musician. I don't know what a Marshall stack or a Hartke bass cabinet really sound like, for example. That Cream dvd sounded awesome to me there in Earl's room, but I couldn't make the comparison to "how it should have sounded" that you could.
Duke |
A Marshall stack in the wrong hands can be a deadly weapon. :hot: But seroiusly I have played everything from Metal to jazz, Alt rock, funk and world music. and Earl's speakers make instruments like instruments, whether delicate precussion as heard on Genesis to the sounds of a screaming rock guitar. and Vocals sounded so natural, even when the volume went up; there were never any frequencies masking others. |
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| Grumpy_Git |
Earl
Is there any possibility that you could provide outline (approx.) delivery cost for a pair of Nathans (options 1,2 and 4.) to the uk, epsecially as your prices are much better than uk prices for drivers.
cheers
Nick. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Grumpy_Git
Earl
Is there any possibility that you could provide outline (approx.) delivery cost for a pair of Nathans (options 1,2 and 4.) to the uk, epsecially as your prices are much better than uk prices for drivers.
cheers
Nick. |
It seems to me that shipping the drivers to the UK would easily eat up the savings as they are very heavy and weight is the big cost factor. A quick quote from FedEx says about $500 per pair, for everything, most of that for the drivers. About $250 for the cabinets alone and $160 for just the baffles. This are just approximate numbers. |
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| phi |
| quote: | | It seems to me that shipping the drivers to the UK would easily eat up the savings as they are very heavy and weight is the big cost factor. A quick quote from FedEx says about $500 per pair, for everything, most of that for the drivers. About $250 for the cabinets alone and $160 for just the baffles. This are just approximate numbers. |
Hello Earl and everyone else...
I just recently shipped speakers from the US to Sweden and was shocked by the fees and charges, the taxes and toll were no suprice.
The strange thing is, it is still cheeper to buy it from the US!
The attached table will hopefully give some clues what I am talking about. Some ruff calculations give that you (for Sweden) should multiply the US-prices by 1.75 to get the final cost. Yes, please you US people, stop complaining about the prices ;)
How come, well you have the shipment it self, airport fees, transportation company fees (FedEx, Schenker etc), toll and on top of it all, including the goods, you have 25% tax (Sweden)!
Count $150 for airport fees, transportation company fees (FedEx, Schenker etc) and around $5 per kilogram of goods and then add the VAT for your country.
I would say the more expensive the thing is that you ship the better the final price. The percentage of the fees diminish.
Explanations for the table:
*1) www.bluearan.co.uk; Includes VAT
*2) Hi-Fi Kit, Prophone; Includes VAT
*3 DE250-8, i.e. 8 ohm version
Some questions:
1. Have you had any success in finding good prices on B&C speakers in Europ? In Germany I found, bcdistribution@t-online.de, this seems to me like a directly connected B&C distributor?
2. I cannot find the DE250 in a 16 ohm verison i Europe?!
Count me in for the highest quality version, may it be the Abbey+ or hopefully the Summa's as a kit. I will transfer 2 times $200 to you.
//Per |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by phi
Some questions:
1. Have you had any success in finding good prices on B&C speakers in Europ? In Germany I found, bcdistribution@t-online.de, this seems to me like a directly connected B&C distributor?
2. I cannot find the DE250 in a 16 ohm verison i Europe?!
Count me in for the highest quality version, may it be the Abbey+ or hopefully the Summa's as a kit. I will transfer 2 times $200 to you.
//Per |
I'm still trying to get an arrangement with B&C for EU and Australia. But, I'm not having much success. I suspect that they will not want to supply me with the parts outside of the US for contractual reasons. I can buy them here and ship them anywhere, but they will not want to give me the same price if they come out of some other country. This just seems obviuos to me.
Its not a problem to change the crossover for the 8 ohm version of the DE250, I will do that for the EU products.
But, quite honestly, it appears to me that the best deal for EU customeres is to just buy the speakers fully assembled. Thats the minimum shipping size, weight and cost. Shipping the parts, will simply not be cost effective. |
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| limono |
| Well considering that US dollar fell on his neck and its half(or so) it used to be I don't quite understand many concerns from non-US customers :D This is the time to "Buy American" |
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| macka |
Last time I checked I could buy B & C drivers here
Perhaps what you need is a retailor of the B & C importer to market your kit / design. There are a number of people who do that sort of thing for other brands like Seas, Peerless and Visation ie Soundlabs Group.
The actual HT market here is quite substantial based on widescreen sales.
I am not going to tell you how to suck eggs but if it were me I would get some product to 6moons for review ie Edgar Krammer is a freelance writer over here and let the market help you.
Create some awareness and position your product in the market.
From there work out distribution.
A lot of installers like Audio Connection and Len Wallis ,one of the largest hifi retailers world wide based on $ sales specificy hi end Home Theatre loudspeakers. The timing is jsut about right with Blue Ray and the awareness of the new hi def audio standards .
Of course someone has to make them and you have Q & A and all the rest of the EC compliance and THX standards to deal with. If that all seem like too much hard work and you just dont want all the issues then license the manufacture to someone in the business and enjoy a happy retirement
Australia
ACOUSTIC TECHNOLOGIES ELECTRONICS PTY LTD
Summer Park - QLD 4074
Brisbane - Austalia
Tel.+61 7 33764122
Fax:+61 7 33765793
Email:
Web: |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by macka
Last time I checked I could buy B & C drivers here |
Of course, I know the importer, his wife used to work for me and Ai bought B&C drivers from him.
| quote: | Originally posted by macka
Of course someone has to make them and you have Q & A and all the rest of the EC compliance and THX standards to deal with. If that all seem like too much hard work and you just dont want all the issues then license the manufacture to someone in the business and enjoy a happy retirement
Australia
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THX is not something I'm likely to ever get since it a scam and I don't play those sort of games. Legal compliance is usually not difficult for passive loudspeakers. Licensing is what I want to do especially for overseas. Ai is looking into this. |
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| gedlee |
Finally got all the bugs worked out on the casting process. Was able to cast about a half dozen parts today and they all came out fine. Some small cosmetic issues, but since they have to be painted these are not a problem.
I will be making up and shipping the kits shortly. Next step is a manual. It will be very short, just enough detail for the knowledgable builder to get them together. |
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| Michael Ando |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrumDude
I have been a drummer and percussionist for about 30 years. I began looking into DIY designs when it appeared there were no mainstream commercial offerings that achieved what I desired for my newly built studio. This room is a shared space used for music rehearsal, my wifes dance classes, and recording studio. I wanted the accuracy and quality of a studio monitor and PA levels for music rehearsal when needed, in a single speaker. I have always thought if a speaker was good enough it would work as both and I don't care for the sound of most pro horns. I know this was a tall order and as I began reading about speaker design it was always a story of trade-offs to achieve the desired result.
I ran across Dr. Geddes information on waveguides and read this thread and others with great interest. I read several of his white papers even though some of the math made my head hurt.
When I realized I was going to be less than an hour from his place on a weekend trip I knew I wanted to hear these speakers. So I convinced my wife to stop by on the drive home.
I arrived at about 8:30am. Dr. Geddes was kind and inviting, even offering us a cup of coffee. I found out he had been at a big music festival in WI and didnt get home till 1:00AM. This impressed me on two counts. Firstly welcoming us into his home after a late night, secondly its nice to learn hes a true music lover as well as a scientist.
We went down to his home theater where we started listening to some familiar audio CDs. The first thing that struck me was absolute pinpoint imaging. The clarity and accuracy was astonishing. Instruments sounded like instruments, not recordings. I have been many recording studios over the years and have never heard sound this accurate, not the big soffit mounted JBLs or any near fields. Then he fired up the projector to play some concert DVDs. Dr. Geddes was in the process of replacing projectors so the projector wasnt ceiling mounted. This means my wife and I had to move from the usual sweet spot in the center of the couch. Guess what, the image stayed spot on. After noticing this I leaned even farther away from center towards the side wall. The image never collapsed. The levels were going up at this point. The amazing thing was everything remained so clear, the sound just got louder, sonic balance never changed, no compression whatsoever. We listened to some Cream and it sounded like Marshall stacks and Harke bass cabs were in the room. The bass was never boomy or muddy; it was like a bass player was right there. And the drums, oh my god, drums are the torture test for most speakers, good reproduction of sharp transients requires headroom. The kick drum was the most realistic I have ever heard. Actually all the drums sounded like a kit was in the room, cymbals were perfect with every overtone and nuance. Next Dr. Geddes put on an eagles live DVD. It had reached ear piercing levels by this time and Joe Walsh was wailing on his guitar like he is known to. As loud as the guitar was I could still clearly hear every other part with perfect stereo placement and detail. They don't appear to color anything. It would seem they are the final link in the idealistic wire plus gain theory I have heard touted as the perfect amp.
I wouldnt have any problem recommending these for use in any studio, even for mastering. They are the most revealing speakers I have ever heard. I also wouldnt have any problem recommending the very same speakers for use in any nightclub. I would think you could pair them with some high efficiency pro subs and they would kill every club systems I have ever heard.
I dont know what else to say except I Have to have these!
Bruce K
My wife's impressions follow below:
From a Womens view point:
First of all let me say that Dr. Geddes was a gracious host, inviting us into his home at 8AM after arriving home the previous night at 1AM.
I have worked in the music business for about 30 years and spent many a night in the studio with mix downs until I didnt think I could hear anymore. I was blown away by these speakers. I felt like I was sitting in front of a live performance! Several songs, that I have heard a thousand times, was a new experience, hearing instrumentation that I never knew was there. So, as for soundoutstanding!!!! I agree with my husband that these speakers should become the industry standard.
Now, from the female viewpoint of aesthetics, because I also love interior design and my husband is always trying to find ways of designing the function, but also pleasing to the eye for me, I have to say that I love the design! They are so beautiful that I wouldnt have a problem having them in my living room, or any room! They look like a beautiful piece of sculpture. In fact, there were a gorgeous pair of red ones in his living room that I would have loved to have in our music studio, but alas, they have already been spoken for.
We will be getting these speakers, as there is nothing on the market today that can even come close to their amazing sound. Thank you Dr. Geddes!
|
There have now been a number of very positive " reviews " of Dr Geddes Summas. I assume that in people writing about hearing the Summas at Dr Geddes home are really writing about hearing a system including a distributed woofer arrangement. I wonder how much the excellent reported sound quality is down to the woofer system and the room which , as a result of Dr Geddes expertise, is no doubt excellent. I imagine to approach the level of excellence reported you need all three parts , Summas , distributed woofers and appropriate room. It seems that the main speakers are just a ( necessary ) step toward a Geddes quality result. |
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| swett |
I agree about the subs. Since I will be the new owner of those Red Summas, I am interested in what subs Earl and others would recommend. In terms of bandpass, DIY seems the obvious way to go, since there are few commercial options.
My goal is a sub I can put into a 13" cube. I found this Dayton 10" could be put into a decent bandpass of about 1 ft3.
But there aren't many DIY bandpass designs, so I'm open to any suggestions. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Ando
There have now been a number of very positive " reviews " of Dr Geddes Summas. I assume that in people writing about hearing the Summas at Dr Geddes home are really writing about hearing a system including a distributed woofer arrangement. I wonder how much the excellent reported sound quality is down to the woofer system and the room which , as a result of Dr Geddes expertise, is no doubt excellent. I imagine to approach the level of excellence reported you need all three parts , Summas , distributed woofers and appropriate room. It seems that the main speakers are just a ( necessary ) step toward a Geddes quality result. |
What you say is quite true, it takes everything to achieve excellence, but isn't the point that I know how to do all aspects of the problem. I'm not just an expert on waveguides, I have a deep understand of the whole gamut of what it takes to achieve excellent sound reproduction.
I would also like to point out that I did not know a single one of those reviewers prior to their coming to my home. There was no bias, no obligations or loyalities, just honest reviews. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by swett
I agree about the subs. Since I will be the new owner of those Red Summas, I am interested in what subs Earl and others would recommend. In terms of bandpass, DIY seems the obvious way to go, since there are few commercial options.
My goal is a sub I can put into a 13" cube. I found this Dayton 10" could be put into a decent bandpass of about 1 ft3.
But there aren't many DIY bandpass designs, so I'm open to any suggestions. |
I'd be happy to supply you with bandpass designs or sell you some bandpass woofers, either way suites me. |
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| Michael Ando |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
What you say is quite true, it takes everything to achieve excellence, but isn't the point that I know how to do all aspects of the problem. I'm not just an expert on waveguides, I have a deep understand of the whole gamut of what it takes to achieve excellent sound reproduction.
I would also like to point out that I did not know a single one of those reviewers prior to their coming to my home. There was no bias, no obligations or loyalities, just honest reviews. |
Maybe I was unclear in what I wrote but yes, that was my point exactly. Anyone who wants the full benefit of Summas needs to take note of ALL the things you are saying ( I even have a sneaking suspicion that even , well damped bass response is nearly as important as any other factors in the enjoyable reproduction of music ) not just think they can buy / build your speakers , stick them in a room, and get all the benefits that the people who visit your home are hearing.
I was casting no aspersions on either the " reviewers " or yourself in regards to the reviews. I wrote reviews in inverted commas because whilst very helpful and no doubt totally honest I dont think these write ups constitute what I might expect from an review. I think audition might be a fair description. This is a very, very minor point and I only seek to clarify it as you seem to think my post had some negative connotation which it did not in any way.
As I have posted previosly I am keen to try your way, which makes nothing but good sense to me , and will send a deposit for 15" waveguides to build Abbey + just as soon as you indicate you are accepting them. Cheers Mike |
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| MEH |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I'd be happy to supply you with bandpass designs or sell you some bandpass woofers, either way suites me. |
Earl,
I know you don't want to get in the business of selling subwoofers; however, if you are familiar enough with designing them that you can just shake the designs out of your sleeve (as Frank Lloyd Wright used to say), then I know that the DIY community and the buyers of your kits would greatly appreciate having a set of subwoofers plans "approved for use with Gedlee waveguide kits." Of course, in designing them you'd be faced with the same trade-offs between size, price, and performance that you've faced with the kits, so maybe we could again hope for two options: one emphasizing small and relatively less expensive while maintaining audio quality that you can tolerate having your name associated with, the other emphasizing audio quality while maintaining size and price that you still judge to be reasonable.
Of course, you are under no obligation to provide such designs, and pointing to existing designs or commercial products that fit the need would be almost as good; but if you could and would post approved subwoofer designs (and setup/placement guidelines) on the page with your kit information, we'd be very grateful. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Ando
Maybe I was unclear in what I wrote but yes, that was my point exactly. Anyone who wants the full benefit of Summas needs to take note of ALL the things you are saying ( I even have a sneaking suspicion that even , well damped bass response is nearly as important as any other factors in the enjoyable reproduction of music ) not just think they can buy / build your speakers , stick them in a room, and get all the benefits that the people who visit your home are hearing.
I was casting no aspersions on either the " reviewers " or yourself in regards to the reviews. I wrote reviews in inverted commas because whilst very helpful and no doubt totally honest I dont think these write ups constitute what I might expect from an review. I think audition might be a fair description. This is a very, very minor point and I only seek to clarify it as you seem to think my post had some negative connotation which it did not in any way.
As I have posted previosly I am keen to try your way, which makes nothing but good sense to me , and will send a deposit for 15" waveguides to build Abbey + just as soon as you indicate you are accepting them. Cheers Mike |
I understood that you had no negative connotation to your note.
The point that I was trying to add, as you say, is that audio takes more than just buying the right pieces - which you also have to do. I was also responding to a side note that I got saying that just because I understand waveguides doesn't mean that I know all about audio. The fact is that I do know ALL about audio, every aspect. I just happen to be the leading expert on waveguides.
It takes doing everything that I do to get audio like I get. I really do think that people who buy just my waveguides hoping to design and build thier own systems will fall short of thier expectations. There is a lot more in my designs than just a waveguide. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by MEH
Earl,
Of course, you are under no obligation to provide such designs, and pointing to existing designs or commercial products that fit the need would be almost as good; but if you could and would post approved subwoofer designs (and setup/placement guidelines) on the page with your kit information, we'd be very grateful. |
What I would most likely do is to enclose a set of plans for the subs with a purchase. I am disinclined to post the plans in the public domain. If supplied with the kit then the plans are copyrighted and it is illegal to disseminate them without permission. If posted then they are public domain and anyone can use them freely.
I will also sell the drivers for the subs at my "prefereed" rate. |
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| MEH |
| That works, but posting the plans does not imply a loss of copyright or inability to choose licensing terms. Even if it did, what is wrong with the plans being public domain if you have no intention of profiting from their sale? |
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| phi |
| quote: | | I'm still trying to get an arrangement with B&C for EU and Australia. But, I'm not having much success. I suspect that they will not want to supply me with the parts outside of the US for contractual reasons. I can buy them here and ship them anywhere, but they will not want to give me the same price if they come out of some other country. This just seems obviuos to me. |
To Earl: In what way does it seem obvious you?
To me it is not that obvious. Yes I can understand if they won't give you exacly the same prices as in the US, they want to compensate for the higher costs running a company i Europe (I am guessing here), but part from that I can only see enterprice strategics, politics. If you manufacture a loudspeaker in china, weather you send it to the US or to Europe should not make a difference.
The global warming discussion is a hot topic at the moment. If you can show to B&C that you are going to sell quite some amount of speakers in e.g. Europe, how will they defend that they send loudspekars to the US that will be distibuted all over Europe after that? (Yes, I am trying to find arguments, don't know if it's helpfull or not) :cannotbe:
| quote: | | But, quite honestly, it appears to me that the best deal for EU customeres is to just buy the speakers fully assembled. Thats the minimum shipping size, weight and cost. Shipping the parts, will simply not be cost effective. |
Don't follow you here. Yes this will make the fees a fraction of the cost but the difference in end price will be hughe (I am making this assumtion from the prices that have been mentioned on this thread about the Summas).
You are doing a very good thing here Mr Geddes. I want you to earn money on what you have dedicated your life in doing. So this is no criticism in any way, just keep up the good work.
//Per |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by MEH
That works, but posting the plans does not imply a loss of copyright or inability to choose licensing terms. Even if it did, what is wrong with the plans being public domain if you have no intention of profiting from their sale? |
I believe that posting the design does allow anyone to use it without reagrd to its origin. Sending it along with the purchased product and noting that the material is copyrighted and cannot be distributed without permission means that only the original customer can make the designs because they cannot copy and distribute the plans.
What my current plans are and what they might be need not be the same thing and so it is best to keep my options open. Putting the designs in the public domain limits those options. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by phi
To Earl: In what way does it seem obvious you?
To me it is not that obvious. Yes I can understand if they won't give you exacly the same prices as in the US, they want to compensate for the higher costs running a company i Europe (I am guessing here), but part from that I can only see enterprice strategics, politics. If you manufacture a loudspeaker in china, weather you send it to the US or to Europe should not make a difference.
Don't follow you here. Yes this will make the fees a fraction of the cost but the difference in end price will be hughe (I am making this assumtion from the prices that have been mentioned on this thread about the Summas).
//Per |
B&C has agreements with distributors in the other countries. If I sell in those countries then this circumvents the local distributor. This is usually against the agreement between the parties. B&C drivers are not made in China they are made in Italy.
I was not talking about the Summas, but about the Nathan, Abbey and Abbey+. I think that an assembled system would be very competitive with what the prices will be in say Sweden if the parts are purchased locally and then assembled. |
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| phi |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
B&C has agreements with distributors in the other countries. If I sell in those countries then this circumvents the local distributor. This is usually against the agreement between the parties. B&C drivers are not made in China they are made in Italy. |
Thank you, yes I know it woks like you say. I think I am just protesting against how things are working in this more and more global world.
Made in Italy, even stranger then that it is cheeper to send the speakers forth and back over the atlantic ocean !
I shall try to sitt back and just wait for some good things to happen now and not waist your time.
//Per |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by phi
Made in Italy, even stranger then that it is cheeper to send the speakers forth and back over the atlantic ocean !
//Per |
Well its not actually. But the part that I don't understand is why the prices in EU are so high. |
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| FrankWW |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
Well its not actually. But the part that I don't understand is why the prices in EU are so high. |
Higher taxes and anti-competitive regulation make business costs higher over there. |
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| MEH |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I believe that posting the design does allow anyone to use it without reagrd to its origin. Sending it along with the purchased product and noting that the material is copyrighted and cannot be distributed without permission means that only the original customer can make the designs because they cannot copy and distribute the plans.
What my current plans are and what they might be need not be the same thing and so it is best to keep my options open. Putting the designs in the public domain limits those options. |
Again, posting the design online need not be equivalent to putting it in the public domain for purposes of copyright and licensing. See Creative Commons for examples and much more information. The Creative Commons licenses are the brainchild of Lawrence Lessig, currently one of the top copyright and intellectual property law professors. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by MEH
Again, posting the design online need not be equivalent to putting it in the public domain for purposes of copyright and licensing. See Creative Commons for examples and much more information. The Creative Commons licenses are the brainchild of Lawrence Lessig, currently one of the top copyright and intellectual property law professors. |
Thats very interesting thanks. |
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| audiokinesis |
Earl,
It is possible that interest in your bandpass subs would extend beyond the Summa/GedLee kit community.
Would it be practical for you to sell a set of bandpass subwoofer plans (including protective language), and deliver those plans by e-mail?
Duke |
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| amiklos |
| Count me among those who is extremely interested in having plans for subwoofers included with our kits. I've been scouring sub designs for weeks looking for an ideal set of three subwoofers to go with the Nathan 10s. |
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| Carl_Huff |
Earl,
For some reason I have been slow to find this thread. I am glad that I did! Please mark me as interested in a pair of your 15 inch variant of your waveguide, drivers & crossover kit. I am really glad to hear that you are thinking of offering them. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by audiokinesis
Earl,
It is possible that interest in your bandpass subs would extend beyond the Summa/GedLee kit community.
Would it be practical for you to sell a set of bandpass subwoofer plans (including protective language), and deliver those plans by e-mail?
Duke |
I suppose this is possible. I'll have to think about it. |
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| Grumpy_Git |
Per/ Earl
Those prices are not the lowest Iv'e found for uk suppliers, I've found:
10PS26 - 85.23
DE250 (8Ohm) - 79.22
I'm still assuming the 16Ohm can be got as a special order at a similar price. The above includes VAT but not Delivery.
I spoke to the UK distributor for B&C and they would only quote list prices to me, very disappointing as they are only about 5 minutes from my house.
Earl,
have you considered trying to deal with one of the european distributors and arranging a lower rate? Maybe you could achieve a compromise as you wouldnt be taking their sales and they would be making money where they might not have if you provided an export?
I'm not trying to make work for you, this is just an idea i thought I'd throw into the wind.
Cheers
Nick. |
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| tinitus |
| May I suggest that at least the 16ohm DE250 is delivered from Gedlee, as they wont add much to weight/volume ... I foresee some problems may occur getting the 16ohm version ... and prices may not be bargains as it seem to be special orders |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Grumpy_Git
I'm still assuming the 16Ohm can be got as a special order at a similar price. The above includes VAT but not Delivery.
Earl,
have you considered trying to deal with one of the european distributors and arranging a lower rate? Maybe you could achieve a compromise as you wouldnt be taking their sales and they would be making money where they might not have if you provided an export?
I'm not trying to make work for you, this is just an idea i thought I'd throw into the wind.
Cheers
Nick. |
I think working through B&C, which I am doing, is the right move.
| quote: | Originally posted by tinitus
May I suggest that at least the 16ohm DE250 is delivered from Gedlee, as they wont add much to weight/volume ... I foresee some problems may occur getting the 16ohm version ... and prices may not be bargains as it seem to be special orders |
I had not considered the 16 ohm to be and issue, but I can see that it is. I'll just change the design to the 8 ohm version - its no big deal. |
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| phi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Grumpy_Git
Per/ Earl
Those prices are not the lowest Iv'e found for uk suppliers, I've found:
10PS26 - 23
DE250 (8Ohm) - 22
I'm still assuming the 16Ohm can be got as a special order at a similar price. The above includes VAT but not Delivery.
I spoke to the UK distributor for B&C and they would only quote list prices to me, very disappointing as they are only about 5 minutes from my house.
Earl,
have you considered trying to deal with one of the european distributors and arranging a lower rate? Maybe you could achieve a compromise as you wouldnt be taking their sales and they would be making money where they might not have if you provided an export?
I'm not trying to make work for you, this is just an idea i thought I'd throw into the wind.
Cheers
Nick. |
Hi Nick,
Which supplier are you talking about? The prices did not come out right, just question marks and 23, 22 in the text?
About a distributor: You just wrote what I was almost on my way writing in my last message to Earl. I thought I should leave the thinking to Earl, but good now you put the question in the air :)
//Per |
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| Grumpy_Git |
Per
Prices were
10PS26 - 85.23 GBP
DE250 - 79.22 GBP
These prices are from 2 different suppliers
www.proaudioparts.co.uk
www.surreysoundandlight.co.uk
Even with delivery costs, it would be the cheapest option for me to buy from seperate suppliers as there is no bulk order discount.
Nick. |
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| phi |
Hi Nick,
Thanks for the info, good to know if things don't work out well for Mr Geddes.
//Per |
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| gedlee |
| I have now completely worked out the details on making the Nathan baffles and they are coming out quite well. I have made about a dozen baffles all with good consistancy and quality. There can sometimes be some small surface defects, but these can easily be filled in with bondo or some surfacing putty and sanded smooth. The Poly waveguides are really quite a nice improvement. I will start shipping the kits next week when I have caught up on some stand alone waveguide orders. |
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| dviswa |
Dr. Geddes,
Would this be usable in an apartment? How far from the wall should these speakers be placed?
Thanks,
Dinesh |
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| gedlee |
These speakers will work even better the smaller the room when compared to anything else with a very wide directivity. |
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| nycavsr2000 |
Earl,
Do you specifically mean the Nathan 10? I take it you have now a working model that you have compared to the Summas? Or it just the 10 inch waveguide that is complete?
Anand. |
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| WT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Ando
If this means waveguides from Thailand thats great. If this means only complete built AI systems then I would rather buy parts from US and pay the freight. I wouldnt like to think that the availability of complete systems from AI in Thailand would exclude me from buying parts from the the US particularly as the Abbey + is my most likely prefered configuration. Mike A |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
What came out of Thailand would be the same as what I sent from here, just different locations. There would be the same options for parts etc. The drivers will definately be more expensive so the complete kit would be more, but the waveguide and baffle would be the same price. |
Am I reading this right? Nathan 10 kit and Abbey 12 kit is available from AI in Thailand. What about drivers? Is it available in Thailand as well. If it is, I am in. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by WT
Am I reading this right? Nathan 10 kit and Abbey 12 kit is available from AI in Thailand. What about drivers? Is it available in Thailand as well. If it is, I am in. |
The entire line of ESP products are available in Thailand through www.AI-audio.com. However they are not the kits that I sell here, although the designs are identical - only the cabinet construction is different. But Ai has not agreed to make the kits. You need to contact Kenny at kenny.jackel@ai-audio.com and ask him if he will make kits available to you. If there is only one buyer in thailand then this probably won't occur, but enough customers might interest him. |
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| jdubs |
Earl
I have someone that will be (hopefully) making cabinets for me. If I buy the "Baffle/waveguide, drivers, crossover", that would get me everything BUT the cabinet, right?
Do you have any specifics on the cabinet (dimensions, etc.) that you can share so I can have him take a look ahead of receiving the front baffle?
Thanks!
Jim |
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| gedlee |
| Send me a seperate E-mail on this and I'll see what I can do. |
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| Rybaudio |
Count me in as another who has heard Dr. Geddes system.
I was away from home for the July 4 weekend and Detroit was only a little bit out of the way on the trip home, so, wanting to take a trip to hear the system anyway, I had to jump at the chance for a listen. Earl was gracious enough to let me stop by for a quick listen even though it was quite late on a Monday evening- thanks.
When I arrived we chatted for a minute and then went down to the theater for a listen. We first listened to one or two stereo tracks, then several tracks+video from a Cream concert, and finally several tracks+video from an Eagles concert.
What can I say the system doesnt do anything wrong.
Lets pick the low lying fruit first: dynamics. Bottom line: the system played without any noticeable change in sound quality up to the levels we wanted it to. That is more than can be said for almost every stereo out there, and certainly every dome system Ive ever heard. Ive heard a few horn/waveguide systems that sound dome-like up to levels where a dome runs out of steam, and they can certainly get louder, but they have always tended to get spitty or have the horn sound when pushed past that point not here- the system sounded the same at all the levels we played it at. If I had to guess, Id say our listening got up to around 105 dB A-weighted or 110 dB unweighted, both of those being RMS over a 1s time interval. I cant say what the peaks hit, but I wouldnt be surprised at 120+ dB. I would be interested to see how much more the system had in it, but it wasnt really necessary for what we did. I will say that at times I like to listen to it a little louder, maybe another 5 dB or so, but thats not very often.
Tonally, the system was neutral- no problems in any frequency ranges and the overall spectral tilt was flat to slightly downward-tilted. The bass and midbass, IMO one of the major challenges of a small room, was right on- articulate, smooth, and balanced a lot like a good pair of headphones or a good system outside. Ive only heard a few small room systems that get the bass this close to right, and Ive never heard a system do this well through the bass and midbass. As a side note, Im guessing this has to with having the subs and midbasses overlap, as Ive always had a problem getting the midbass right when crossing it over to the subs around 70-80 Hz, even if having the bass good up to that point. The other tough area, the high end, was as clean as can be. The OS waveguide and foam do as advertised at no point did I hear anything resembling the horn sound. As noted above, Ive heard horn systems sound this good at low volume, but not when cranked up. The foam seems to take away that last little bit of harshness that Ive never been able to do away with otherwise. I wont say that it was an earth-shattering difference as some people (Geddes on WG thread) have claimed, but it certainly WAS a difference, and its certainly WORTH doing it, considering theres no better (other?) way to get the job done.
I was most curious to hear the spatial characteristics of a system setup with the philosophy explained in the Summa paper, as the rest of the performance is fairly easy to quantify (does it screw stuff up?). Im a bit hesitant to start describing this because its very subjective and difficult to reliably compare with other systems heard on other days, but Ill give it a whirl; just be sure to take the description with a grain of salt. One of the first things I noticed was that the room seemed quite live at high frequencies. Usually that means listening fatigue, but over the 45 minutes or so of constant listening at high volumes I experienced none. A highly damped room can make a crappy speaker sound better, but with a good speaker this just seemed right. The sound stage and imaging was as good as Ive heard the stage was appropriately wide, high, and deep, and the images sounded real- not pinpoints and not vague, confused locations, but rather images of a definite direction that were appropriately sized and fuzzy, like a live performance. Thats about all I want to say on that give it a shot and youll be a believer.
Overall, its about what I expected: a well-designed and executed system, certainly the best one Ive ever experienced. All (or very close) aspects of system performance have been addressed, and, might I say, in as simple and economical way as possible. Many systems can get one aspect right (often an irrelevant one in high end audio!), but rarely do you hear something get it all right. Ive heard a few AES conventions and CEDIAs worth of show demos, several companies listening rooms, several DIYers offerings, and messed around with quite a few setups myself, but Ive never quite seen something put it all together the way this did. To put this in a bigger perspective, I also have friends who have or are working as audio engineers (systems and/or transducers) for Boston Acoustics, Klipsch, Legacy, DCM, Bose, EAW, Electrovoice, Eminence, Pioneer, MTX, Visteon, and Harman, and while I cant speak directly for them, I have enough shared listening experience to say with some certainty that theyd all be very impressed.
This is one seriously good system; everyone who can give it a listen should jump at the opportunity. |
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| Russell Dawkins |
... the phrase "ringing endorsement" comes to mind!
Must feel good, Earl. |
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| WT |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
The entire line of ESP products are available in Thailand through www.AI-audio.com. However they are not the kits that I sell here, although the designs are identical - only the cabinet construction is different. But Ai has not agreed to make the kits. You need to contact Kenny at kenny.jackel@ai-audio.com and ask him if he will make kits available to you. If there is only one buyer in thailand then this probably won't occur, but enough customers might interest him. |
Thanks. Already send him an e-mail.
In your opinion, is there some benefit for 12" over 10" for small room ( 5.5 meter x 7 meter). |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by WT
Thanks. Already send him an e-mail.
In your opinion, is there some benefit for 12" over 10" for small room ( 5.5 meter x 7 meter). |
Yes, from what I have seen, and that is not a lot, the 12" is quite an advance over the 10". Its also bigger and more expensive. The 15" is a bit better than the 12", but again quite a bit bigger and more expensive. To me the sweet spot is the 12". The creme-de-la-creme is the Summa. Just makes sense doesn't it? |
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| gedlee |
Thanks RYBaudio.
Its good to know that a life spent in creating a good audio system has not been wasted and that people can appreciate it. Science really will win out every time over subjectivism, but surely its going to be a very long time before people come to accept that. I've been saying this all my life, mostly to a disbelieving audience. When people do come to believe that science is a better tool for audio design than ears then they will also stop being tools of marketing and sensibilty will once again creep back into audio purchasing and hopefully audio value. What many fail to realize is how inexpensive my system is given its ratings. We are not talking about mega buck installations and electronics only a sensible approach to the allocation of the resources. |
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| jdubs |
E-mailed...thanks Earl.
-Jim |
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| agent.5 |
Dr. Gedlee,
do you have any recommendations on books, papers, etc on speaker and room integration?
I live in your typical California wood framed construction and I am actually listening to my neighbour's stereo system right now and she is now even playing that loud, but sounds just go stratight through the wall. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by agent.5
Dr. Gedlee,
do you have any recommendations on books, papers, etc on speaker and room integration?
I live in your typical California wood framed construction and I am actually listening to my neighbour's stereo system right now and she is now even playing that loud, but sounds just go stratight through the wall. |
My book on Home Theater has a lot on noise control, but your situation is going to be a tough one. Good luck. |
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| MartinQ |
| Earl, what is the status on the Abbey and Abbey+ waveguide/baffles? |
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| JoshK |
DrG, do you have a preference for finish that has worked well with the waveguides? Do you stop the paint some distance before the throat (plug hides it anyway)?
I figured I'd ask in public as those buying kits may have the same questions, or maybe not if they got instructions. (I bought just the waveguides and while their assembly is fairly self-explanatory, the finishing is worth asking about). |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by MartinQ
Earl, what is the status on the Abbey and Abbey+ waveguide/baffles? |
I have the molds for the Abbey. The Abbey+ is still in the wings although I am having a batch of 15" waveguides made. I do not think that I can do an Abbey+ the same way that I make the Nathan and the Abbey. This will push the price up considerably since the new production method is turning out to be quite effective and efficient. The Abbey+ kit would be at least $1500 each. I think that this will limit its attractiveness quite a bit unless I can get tyhe price down with a better production technique. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by JoshK
DrG, do you have a preference for finish that has worked well with the waveguides? Do you stop the paint some distance before the throat (plug hides it anyway)?
I figured I'd ask in public as those buying kits may have the same questions, or maybe not if they got instructions. (I bought just the waveguides and while their assembly is fairly self-explanatory, the finishing is worth asking about). |
The material is irrelavent, but should not get too thick down at the throat. There isn't much point in painting all the way down the throat.
If when they are all assembled and before you glue in the plug, you should check the throat fit and smooth out any rough spots with clay or something like that. I always remove the screens from the drivers and there is usually a small gap after the waveguides are assembled. The B&C DE250 always has a gap as it is in the construction. Fill this with clay until it is perfectly smooth. There should also be some form of gasket in between the mouting plate and the driver and waveguide to make sure this is air tight. |
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| MartinQ |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
This will push the price up considerably since the new production method is turning out to be quite effective and efficient. |
This sounds counter-intuitive. Can you elaborate?
Wouldn't an effective and efficient production method keep the price down? |
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| amiklos |
I'll apologize in advance for my impatience (driven by my excitement), but how are you progressing on the Nathan 10 kits?
Thanks,
Adam |
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| amiklos |
| quote: | Originally posted by MartinQ
This sounds counter-intuitive. Can you elaborate?
Wouldn't an effective and efficient production method keep the price down? |
I think he was saying that the method for the Nathan and Abbey is quite efficient but unfortunately will not work for the Abbey+, thus driving the price up. |
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| mike galusha |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I have the molds for the Abbey. |
Are you ready to start accepting down payment on the Abbey kits?
Mike |
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| gedlee |
Correct - I stated that poorly.
I can keep the price down on those products for which the new method works, but when I have to resort to the older fiberglass waveguides, which require a lot more work and have to be outsourced, I am unable to get the price down to a level comparable with the other two.
The 15" waveguides may be too large to cast, and even if they could be cast the molds more than double in price. But in the long run the waveguides cost a lot less. Hence it appears that initially an Abbey+ would have to have the fiberglass waveguides and hence will have to be more expensive. If things go well then I might be able to buy a mold and get the larger waveguides to work as the smaller ones do. This MAY bring the price down.
Hopefully is is clearer. |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by mike galusha
Are you ready to start accepting down payment on the Abbey kits?
Mike |
Yes, I will take orders for the Abbey, but not the Abbey+. If, however, I get the Abbey+ developed for production then when your name comes up to the top of the queue I will allow you to use your deposit for the larger system.
I have started shipping Nathans this week.
I will be building a prototype Abbey early next week. Once the prototype is done, then the manufacturing process should go quickly because it is a just a small modification to that for the Nathans.
I am extremely pleased with the Nathans at this point. The cast waveguides are a real improvement over the fiberglass ones. Very rigid and well damped. And I have streamlined all aspects of the process to allow for rapid manufacturing of the parts. Here is a picture of the kit.
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| audiokinesis |
Earl, about the clay that you use to smooth the interface between driver and waveguide - is there a particular kind that you have found stays in place reliably over time? My concern would be that a clay that dries would crack and bits could fall down, or a clay that stays soft could droop, and in either case you could end up with clay in the phase plug, on the diaphragm, or down in the gap.
Thanks,
Duke |
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| gedlee |
| I've found that normal "kids" clay works fine. It doesn't dry up and I have not seen it droop at all as yet. It is a very small amount and it is trapped in place. But we did have a concern for the pro systems where the drivers could get very hot. There we used silicone instead as it was heat proof, but harder to apply. |
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| audiokinesis |
Thanks for the information on the clay. And silicone for prosound applications - very interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that!
Duke |
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| hoxuanduc |
Hi Dr Geddes,
The kit includes precut MDFs, so one only needs to glue everything together? No wood cutting involved?
Thanx
Duc |
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| gedlee |
| Yes, that is correct. A finish nail gun is pretty useful to hold things together while they are being glued, but it can be done without it. But yes, all wood is pre-cut. |
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| Etienne88 |
Hi Earl and others!
I read recently that you do not recommend bi-amping for your speakers. I also remember that you once said that the amps you are using with your Summa are not mega buck, ultra high end (etc) but carefully selected devices.
Is it possible to know what kind of amps you are using in your set up or maybe what kind of amp do you recommend for the kit you are selling? A precise model might not be the most interesting answer as I am more looking for the criteria of your choice.
(I hope this is the right thread for this kind of questions!)
Regards,
Etienne |
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| tomcat9 |
What is the efficiency rating for the Nathan10?
Thanks. |
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| amiklos |
From the aiaudio site:
| quote: | | The ESP 10 is extremely sensitive (93 db full space, 99 db half space) |
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| gedlee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Etienne88
Hi Earl and others!
I read recently that you do not recommend bi-amping for your speakers. I also remember that you once said that the amps you are using with your Summa are not mega buck, ultra high end (etc) but carefully selected devices.
Is it possible to know what kind of amps you are using in your set up or maybe what kind of amp do you recommend for the kit you are selling? A precise model might not be the most interesting answer as I am more looking for the criteria of your choice.
(I hope this is the right thread for this kind of questions!)
Regards,
Etienne |
I recommend a "good" amp. I use a Pioneer receiver. It has chip amps. These amps were measured with a spectrum analyzer down to the noise floor with no sign of any increase in harmonic order or level. This means that there is no crossover distortion and that they are very linear for very low level signals. MOST amps are not this good. This amp was the best of more than a dozen that I tested. Some were downright terrible at low signal levels - which is a disaster. |
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| Etienne88 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gedlee
I recommend a "good" amp. |
It is nice having you making fun! ;) :D
Thank you for the answer, I noticed afterward that I should have done my homework better... You speak about it in the Geddes about distortion measurements thread!
Another question: is it the same amp for your subs? I mean, do you use the remaining channels of the receiver for the subs?
Regards,
Etienne |
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| gedlee |
| I have, but usually not. I tend to use plate amps in the subs because it just ends up be easier to route the wires and such. But I have used the sub amps in the receiver before. |
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| tomcat9 |
Is there any update on the kits? I do want one, but not sure which size to get. If anyone has received a kit, it would be great if you posted any thoughts.
Thanks. |
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| gedlee |
The Nathan 10s are shipping now, still a little short of some small but key parts, mostly screws and terminals for the crossovers, but in another week I'll have parts enough for a lot of kits. I can fill Nathan 10 orders in a couple of weeks now. When I get clear of the backlog of Nathan orders I'll start on the Abbeys. I already have the molds so this should go fairly quickly.
In all honesty the Abbey will be the better system, of that I have no doubt, but it is bigger and more expensive. If you have the room and can afford them get the Abbeys, if not then the Nathans work quite well and you won't be disappointed.
I don't think anybody but myself has finished a set of kits as they just started to ship. |
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| Michael Ando |
I see in another thread that you will have some 15" guides available soon.
Does this mean you will now take deposits for these ?
Will crossover design / cabinet details to make Abbey + be made available to people who buy 15" waveguides ?
Which woofer will be used ?
Thanks Mike Anderson |
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| gedlee |
Yes, you can buy the 15" waveguides, but I make no promises about if or when the Abbey+ will be available. The idea is to use the fiberglass waveguides for these, thats why I am having them done, but I have no idea how practical that will be until I try it. If it turns out to not work then I won't be doing it.
The Abbey+ would "probably" use the B&C 12TBX100 as this is a very good driver. But the 15" one is better so I might just jump up to that. All in all I haven't decided on anything beyond the Abbey and the next steps will all depend on how well the first two products go. |
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| Ed LaFontaine |
| quote: | | But the 15" one is better |
Is that the 15PS76 15"? |
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| gedlee |
| 15TBX100 - a very good 15" driver. |
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| nycavsr2000 |
Ed,
The 15 inch he is talking about is the B&C 15TBX100.
Best,
Anand. |
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| tomtom |
Hello Dr. Geddes
Firstly i want to thank you for all information that you are kindly sharing. I follow you threads very carefully. Im about to buy one of kit from you /for stereo/. I have just two add on questions.
I understand your point with multiple subs - but i dont know how is stereo channels distributed to particular subwoofers. Are they summed at first and then amplified as mono signal? Do you use your receiver for that? My first concern is stereo not HT. It is possible to use for example two pair of subs /two ULF and two WB/ and place them on each side as L and R channel /i know that this uniform pattern isnt very good for LF reproduction/? So what is your opinions and finding about this?
And second question
I believe in line level filtering and active amplification. I understand that in case of hi ef two way system as suma is there is no such a benefit as with for example 3 way boutique hifi system with 83db/w.
Also LF where is active advantage most obvious is active in your system too.
Are you experimented with this? Do you expect some benefits?
Its there possibility that you design line level filter for your kits?
I suppose that "reverse engineering" of passive filter to make line level filter will be very difficult if not impossible.
Thank you very much!
Tomas Vojtek |
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| gedlee |
I just use the mono sub output from my receiver. But you can just derive a mono signal to LP to the subs with no problem.
I have used active filters for my sepeakers on several occasions, they were never very succesful. I have no plans to make an active filter set. I could supply a plot of the transfer functions, but youd be on your own to implimenting them and based on what I found with the active filters, they never work right and need to be "tweaked". So basically its a scratch design. |
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