| bezobraznia |
Hello,
I'm consider building home theatre speakers...
Topology that i choose is subwoofer + five channels i.e. 5.1
For soobwoofer i've choose two Peerless XLS10'' drivers. I think building one or two subwoofers with passive radiators in sealed 30l. The most question is for the other five channels.
I think about fullranges, maybe in small boxes... i really don't know. Maybe fostex, I like how they look with white cones, but what model will be suitable with XLS10 sub? I'm not sure about dependancy of SPL of front, back and center channels. For example for front speakers i may use FE207 dirvers , for rear - FE167, for center two FE 167 or FE127 drivers. Will i have to use recomended tweeters from Fostex for these drivers because except clear mid freqs i like clear high freqs too... Maybe other fullranges? I was thinking about EJJordans, but then i will exceed my budget, which is not exactly fixed btw... Anyway..
If any suggestions - You are welcome!
Thanks in advance!
Reggards!
p.s. If moderators consider that this thread is not for fullranges forum (because of more that two drivers construction, especialy including sub), then feel free moving in in another subforum. Thank You |
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| Cal Weldon |
Hi,
I'm not the expert here but no one has chimed in to help so here goes:
If you are listening to these for TV only, then use all five the same driver. If they are also for stereo music you might wish to consider using better L & R speakers and the other 3 the same. As far as the tweeter goes, why not leave room on the front of your box so you may add it later if needed.
I am assuming you are planning a plate amp for the woofers? If so you may chose any driver for the 5.1 as the woofers volume is adjustable.
My choice is only one woofer cabinet not two as I have had better luck integrating it into the listening environment. Two boxes can lead to drop outs unless your sitting area is small and box location is not set in stone. |
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| FastEddy |
" ... Topology that i choose is subwoofer + five channels i.e. 5.1 ..."
Personally, I like simple, two channel Stereo with a subwoofer.
Once you get it all set up with your screen exactly where you want it and your main speakers exactly where you want them (no mean feat) ... then is the time to add outrigger speakers for surround sound (5.1 or 7.1) ... or Not!
In my example, I prefer the planar flat panel speakers (from Magnapan) which are very, very hard to position exactly right (don't ask, its a long winded discourse) ... This involved building platforms and finding the almost perfect location.
(I actually do have some really nice surround sound satellite speakers for the rear L & R, but they are not hooked up (!) and are just for show. So now I've got this investment in extra speakers that I just don't use.)
Everyone's results are different, but I could almost guarantee that if you get your stereo mains and a subwoofer figured out and sounding really good, you may just veto adding the surround sound speakers, especially if you have a smaller listening room. |
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| musgofasa |
For the record, I agree with Eddy here.
I have done no few 5.1 systems and even a few 7.1 systems now. I have to say that 7.1 does provide a bit of a different experience in a good room.
My suggestion is spend your money on your mains and sub and use only what is necessary for center and surrounds. You could get away with an inexpensive FR for a center and mains. Perhaps the TB FR drivers or an FE127. Maybe even doing something like 5 Fonkens would work, but I would definitely set it to stereo only for music listening. In fact, I am pretty sure the Fonkens would work well to blend with whatever sub you choose. My suggestion here is to go with a single sub as well. Placement can be a beast with multiple subs unless you do 4 or more to get rid of nodes.
OK that is about all of my technical knowledge. I am wiped out and going home now. lol.
Let us know what you decide.
Take care,
Robert |
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| FastEddy |
Also ... say goodbye to any hopes of tube equipment, except for a whole bunch of mono-block modules (which work really well in a 5.1 system, but ...).
Which reminds me: Does anyone know of a really decent five (5) channel tube pre-amp?? Like with four input sets and five channels out? ... fur get about it ... :bawling: |
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| bezobraznia |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cal Weldon
I'm not the expert here but no one has chimed in to help so here goes:
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I'm not asking only experts, so I'm thankful to Your opinon!
| quote: | Originally posted by Cal Weldon
If you are listening to these for TV only, then use all five the same driver. If they are also for stereo music you might wish to consider using better L & R speakers and the other 3 the same.
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I will listening not only for TV, but for Hi-fi in my bedroom. So front L+R may be better than surround, but I was hear opinions for DVD listening, that center channel must be better from all. And i know from my observations that almost in any case center channel includet two mids in paralel... I don't know why, maybe SPL will rise. And in most cases front channel goes the same brand in combination with surround channels.
| quote: | Originally posted by Cal Weldon
As far as the tweeter goes, why not leave room on the front of your box so you may add it later if needed.
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Great idea, i will remember it ;)
For choice of number of woofers, thank You. This will be very helpful! And i will be use plate amp. Thank You
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
Personally, I like simple, two channel Stereo with a subwoofer.
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I like it exactly in that way too, even without subwoofer. Only fullranges with small help with tweeters in highs.
But this will be my next project for my living room - High SPL drivers + sub , preferably SE tube amplifier, but here we have to stay to 5.1 incl dts receiver.
The 5.1 is for my bedroom
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
Once you get it all set up with your screen exactly where you want it and your main speakers exactly where you want them (no mean feat) ... then is the time to add outrigger speakers for surround sound (5.1 or 7.1) ... or Not!
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I understand what You mean, and yes i agree that even we may be not in exactly place.. when speakers are good, we don't need even sub... only 3D comes from fullranges... But It's not the same because in DVD movies DTS or AC3, they are independant recorded signals whitch canot be replaced with two stereo channels or even 5.1 DSP simulation.
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
(I actually do have some really nice surround sound satellite speakers for the rear L & R, but they are not hooked up (!) and are just for show. So now I've got this investment in extra speakers that I just don't use.)
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Very clever ;):clown:
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
Everyone's results are different, but I could almost guarantee that if you get your stereo mains and a subwoofer figured out and sounding really good, you may just veto adding the surround sound speakers, especially if you have a smaller listening room.
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Yes, but a month ago i've was carry out repairs in my home, and two cables stick out my walls :clown: and i will have to connected it with something... Surround speakers will help here.
Btw, i have two diy speakers with Visaton BG20 who may use for front speakers.
Reggards!! |
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| bezobraznia |
| quote: | Originally posted by musgofasa
I have done no few 5.1 systems and even a few 7.1 systems now. I have to say that 7.1 does provide a bit of a different experience in a good room.
My suggestion is spend your money on your mains and sub and use only what is necessary for center and surrounds. You could get away with an inexpensive FR for a center and mains. Perhaps the TB FR drivers or an FE127. Maybe even doing something like 5 Fonkens would work, but I would definitely set it to stereo only for music listening. In fact, I am pretty sure the Fonkens would work well to blend with whatever sub you choose. My suggestion here is to go with a single sub as well. Placement can be a beast with multiple subs unless you do 4 or more to get rid of nodes.
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Thank You, for suggestions. After so many opinions about number of subs I will definately go to one sub only :)
so the questions for quality of center channel still remain...
I was thinking about FE127 in Fonken but only for surround and center channels.
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
Also ... say goodbye to any hopes of tube equipment, except for a whole bunch of mono-block modules (which work really well in a 5.1 system, but ...).
Which reminds me: Does anyone know of a really decent five (5) channel tube pre-amp?? Like with four input sets and five channels out? ... fur get about it ... :bawling: |
As to be honest I was thinking about making Tube preamp. It's not so hard to do... i think... but i don't know on the other side quality receiver will do the same work especially for DVD... Don't forget remote control too... It's normal for market receivers, but It is impossible for Tube amp... So my favourite music will listen on 2.1 - My next project 2 channel tube + plate sub ... |
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| FastEddy |
" ... As to be honest I was thinking about making Tube preamp. It's not so hard to do... i think ..."
I think so as well, however when you begin to deal with 5 channels output instead of just two ... and that pesky rotary switch that could or should be able to deal with three or four or five complete sets of 5.1 inputs too ... :eek: :eek: :eek:
You begin to try to come up with ways to combine source devices ... Do I really need a phonograph? Can I find an FM tuner with a phono input? That DVD player should also play CDs, right?
(I found a "universal" player that plays DVD to 1080p resolution, DVD-Audio, CD, SACD and even euro movies (PAL) ... but the power supply and the DAC needed some tweaking to get decent 24 bit audio.) |
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| bezobraznia |
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
" ... As to be honest I was thinking about making Tube preamp. It's not so hard to do... i think ..."
I think so as well, however when you begin to deal with 5 channels output instead of just two ... and that pesky rotary switch that could or should be able to deal with three or four or five complete sets of 5.1 input too ... :eek: :eek: :eek: |
I have 22 positioning six channel silver plated Russian military made rotary switch... but ... hahaha... You are right It will be nightmare calculating and soldering small resistors on it... :D
edit:
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
You begin to try to come up with ways to combine source devices ... Do I really need a phonograph? Can I find an FM tuner with a phono input? That DVD player should also play CDs, right?
(I found a "universal" player that plays DVD to 1080p resolution, DVD-Audio, CD, SACD and even euro movies (PAL) ... but the power supply and the DAC needed some tweaking to get decent 24 bit audio.)
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I'm thinking that phono will be most natural , CD player has big advantage - most music is stored in CD's...
For Audio i strictly stay on Pure CD player , tweaked if posible, stereo amplifier - tube if posibe. Right now I'm listening music in my Philips CD614, Grundig 8400 and Sony CDP some... Tube preamp with E88CC+ 6H13C , and then (unfortunately after sell of my Power follower) on my diy Gainclone... Gainclone suxx btw in matter of 3D ... Class A SE NF is the real truth of listening music!! preferable speaker cabinets - horn or tqwt...
Reggards! |
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| FastEddy |
" ... silver plated Russian military made rotary switch ..."
Wow ... a collectors' item for sure, for sure. It would almost be a shame to "waste" it on an actual project.
Anyway, three sources, each source capable of outputting two to five audio signals ... then there is the discriminating circuitry needed for "auto switch" between ordinary stereo and Dolby 5.1 (or is that done in the source device??) ...
Anyway, a nightmare of a design ... multi device input for tube pre-amps is usually limited to three stereo sets (ex: Bottlehead.com ForePlay Pre-Amp kits have three stereo sets in, two stereo sets out controlled from a single three position rotary. The BottleHead folks recommend multiple pre-amps with split signal paths for "surround" sound setups.)
(FYI: My "home theater" has the above Bottlehead.com pre, connected are a DVD/CD/SACD/PAL/NTSC/1080p "u-player", an old FM tuner and either of two other devices: a new phono and a new Apple iMac connected via FireWire 24bit DAC / ADC from Echodigital.com ... I love it and absolutely will not let go of that tube pre-amp = it mellows out all that digital stuff to a far the well ... g'dam it does sound good to me. :cool: )[ |
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| bezobraznia |
I agree ... it is collectors item.. I bought it on some distant place... In the beginning the seller don't want sell it to me because he was thinking that I want buy it because of need of draw out silver from connectors LOL:D :D It was so hard explane it to him that i want item not for silver on connectors, but for audio stuff...
hahaha...
Nice talking with You btw ;)
I've seen Your pictures from San Francisco's Burning Amp Festival..
Great !! :cool: |
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| FastEddy |
" ... Your pictures ..."
Those are not my pictures, but they are from the various attendees to the show.
Incidentally I went to the Russian Embassy in San Francisco many years ago and they have a window there for casual walk in folks. I asked them to exchange some of my US money for some of the old (highly inflated) soviet money ... US$50 bucks got me about 85000 in almost new soviet rubles ( they thought they had taken candy from this baby.) ... I put a few of the 10K bills in small picture frames as they were and are real works of art ... ;) |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by bezobraznia
Thank You, for suggestions. After so many opinions about number of subs I will definately go to one sub only :)
so the questions for quality of center channel still remain...
I was thinking about FE127 in Fonken but only for surround and center channels.... |
What about a simpler set up..
Jim Griffin JX92+G2si for front and fulrange JX92 for center and rears. this way the for most of the music range the signature of the sound is the same (the G2si comes in at 3K I think).
Fostex and other similar small fullrange drivers (veravox 5, Supravox 135, etc..) have very limited Xmax and I dont think they would suffice for a HT experience. |
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| KCHANG |
Hi,
FWIW, my 5.1 HT system uses a single TB W4-1320SB 4" bamboo-fiber cone driver for each of the 5 channels. Each TB driver is in a wedge-shaped box. I found that using a single driver in a sealed box per L or R channel made it easier to integrate the speakers with the subwoofer. Each of the front L and R speakers, however, has a bass module that has a low-pass crossover at 180Hz. The TB boxes sit on the bass modules. For HT use, the TB boxes are run fullrage, and the bass modules are not connected. If I want to use the same speakers for stereo listening, I can make one quick connection change that connects in the bass module and connects the TB box to a capacitor that provides 1st order high-pass at 180Hz.
By the way, the TB 4" driver is a very good fullrage driver. A quite satisfying yet very inexpensive stereo system can be made by putting a pair of the TB drivers on open baffles and adding a subwoofer.
Cheers,
Kurt |
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| bezobraznia |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
What about a simpler set up..
Jim Griffin JX92+G2si for front and fulrange JX92 for center and rears. this way the for most of the music range the signature of the sound is the same (the G2si comes in at 3K I think).
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What is Jim Griffin JX92+G2si ? Did You mean EJJordans JX92?
| quote: | Originally posted by KCHANG
FWIW, my 5.1 HT system uses a single TB W4-1320SB 4" bamboo-fiber cone driver for each of the 5 channels. Each TB driver is in a wedge-shaped box. I found that using a single driver in a sealed box per L or R channel made it easier to integrate the speakers with the subwoofer. Each of the front L and R speakers, however, has a bass module that has a low-pass crossover at 180Hz. The TB boxes sit on the bass modules. For HT use, the TB boxes are run fullrage, and the bass modules are not connected. If I want to use the same speakers for stereo listening, I can make one quick connection change that connects in the bass module and connects the TB box to a capacitor that provides 1st order high-pass at 180Hz.
By the way, the TB 4" driver is a very good fullrage driver. A quite satisfying yet very inexpensive stereo system can be made by putting a pair of the TB drivers on open baffles and adding a subwoofer.
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FWIW = ?
Absolutely briliant ideas... I didn't hear any TB yet, but I've read somewhere in diy formums that TB is not as good as Fostex etc. that's because I was thinking about Fostex for HT. TB bamboo fiber look very cool btw :bigeyes: |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by bezobraznia
I was thinking about FE127 in Fonken but only for surround and center channels. |
It is only my opinion, but i have yet to find the larger FE167/207 as satisfying as the FE127eN... so while still trying those out, we are also exploring the more expensive 120mm drivers (FX120 and F120A) to make an even better Fonken, and adding active woofers to get even better bass than the larger Fostex are capable of.
dave |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
Does anyone know of a really decent five (5) channel tube pre-amp?? Like with four input sets and five channels out? |
Fosgate
dave |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by navin
Fostex and other similar small fullrange drivers (veravox 5, Supravox 135, etc..) have very limited Xmax and I dont think they would suffice for a HT experience. |
I'm very happy using Fonken in my 2.1 HT. I do have JX92 on the way to see if they compare to the FE127eN.
dave |
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| KCHANG |
Hi bezobraznia,
FWIW = For whatever is worth.
Of the 3" - 5" fullrange drivers I've tried, there are 3 drivers I like: Fostex FF85K (3"), FX120 (4.5") and TB W4-1320SB (4"). They all sound quite different on OB though. I've gotten good sound from all three of them, when used on open baffles with the Eminence Alpha 15A doing the bass duty. The FF85K is very good in the highs, but does not go low enough or have enough excursion to mate with a subwoofer in a home theatre application.
The FX120 has a more balanced sound, but is much more expensive. The TB bamboo driver has a more "exciting" sound that has pretty good highs and apparent clarity compared to the FX120. Of these three drivers, the TB seems to be better suited for the HT, if you want to use only one FR driver per channel.
Cheers,
Kurt |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by KCHANG
Fostex FF85K (3") |
We are playing with these too. An excellent driver, but for HT you'd probably need a minimum 300 Hz XO and at least 2nd order. The test helper woofers for the µFonken with FF85 are getting close to completion and we'll be starting to play with XOs.
dave |
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| bezobraznia |
Thank You for Your opinions...
I suppose that FE127 will be good enough in quality , but i'm afraid that will not gain enough sound power for me... I never listen it and I don't know...
On the other side.. Soon I expecting my new (ebay vintage) Philips 9710M8 drivers - 97db/w/m ... I don't know what enclosure will be the best for them yet... but if i've made it ok, then I can use my Visaton BG20 (92 db/w/m) Voight Pipe's (from link below) for front channels and the other three for surround and center...
btw, for center I was thinking about two drivers in paralel maybe including tweeter between, or one driver with two bass reflex ports, or maybe one driver in mini double horn ;) thats is good idea i think - double horn ... because i like symetric...
The most importand is ability of drivers fit in diferent volume enclosures ... or combine similar in sounding drivers that in the end i would have the same sensibility levels of all drivers in HT
From Cal Weldon in the first post i understand that spl of active subwoofer depends on level of plate amps on it, so sub is not problem... The overal ballance of 5 speakers is hard to balance, i think... |
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| Cal Weldon |
| quote: | Originally posted by bezobraznia
FWIW = ? |
Around these parts it's:
For what it's worth. |
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| navin |
| quote: | Originally posted by bezobraznia
What is Jim Griffin JX92+G2si ? Did You mean EJJordans JX92?
Absolutely briliant ideas... I didn't hear any TB yet, but I've read somewhere in diy formums that TB is not as good as Fostex etc. that's because I was thinking about Fostex for HT. TB bamboo fiber look very cool btw :bigeyes: |
ref: jim griffin (see link below)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...520#post1425520
I have heard the Fostex 127, 167 and 207 in their horn loaded boxes. Actually I was only able to hear the speakers with grills on so have to believe what the sales person told me (I was not able to visually verify this) and they do some things (esp midrange) very very well but for a system that also has to do HT I think the JX92 would be a better bet. mated to the G2si (a la Griffin) you should get the HF extension you need. Besides the JX92 is quite well equipped to producebass down to 50Hz which allows you some flexibiltiy with the sub's integration.
| quote: | Originally posted by KCHANG
[B]
Of the 3" - 5" fullrange drivers I've tried, there are 3 drivers I like: Fostex FF85K (3"), FX120 (4.5") and TB W4-1320SB (4").
The FX120 has a more balanced sound, but is much more expensive. B] |
The FX120 is comparable in price to the JX92 and comes with a formidable reputation. It is another driver worth looking at. |
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| Lowrider |
I have a very good 5.2 system in Portugal, and a 3 times cheaper 2.1 in Latvia...
http://www.melorib.com/hifi.html
With 2 open baffle fullrange speakers I get as much "surround" sound as with 5 closed boxes, even the helicopter on Pink Floyd flies behind me, and it sounds better...
Also, do closed box subwoofers, no reflex, no passive, they wont sound as goos and will be harder to integrate, as they will have peaks and deaps in the port and radiator ressonance areas... |
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| KCHANG |
Just realized that I omitted the "it" in FWIW. Cal, thanks for the correction.
Cheers,
Kurt |
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| bezobraznia |
Ok, the choice will be between:
Fostex FE127E and Tangband W4-1320SC witch is the same like Tangband W4-1320SD. The price is almost the same.
Fostex: Fs: 70Hz, Tangbang: Fs: 75Hz
Fostex: 91dB/w/m, Tangbang: 89dB/w/m
Fostex power input: 15W, Tangbang power input: 25W
Fostex Vas: 9.9l , Tangbang Vas: 5.99l
SPL vs. Freq - almost the same, on table TB has better, but in real I don't know because I never listen these fullranges.
Will Fostex have the same sound pressure with 91db/w/m and 15W input like Tangbang with 89db/w/m and 25W input?
I don't know is Tangband W4-1320SC shielded like W4-1320SD.
If not than this will be the other problem, especialy for center channel. So if i choose TB, then i have to look for shielded similar to sounding of W4-1320, any ideas? Or maybe ideas for several TB for center channel, but shielded?
Thank You! |
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| Scottmoose |
You won't want to put 15w or 25w into those drivers. Forget max power ratings -they're only there to tell you how much power you can pump into them before they disintigrate. In practice 3 - 5w should be perfectly sufficient.
FWIW, I'd go with the Fostex. Whisker more sensitivity, and as a rule, most people prefer them, sonically, to the TB units. |
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| _henry_ |
hi, i;m aiming for 2.1 also with jim's jx92s+ribbon, but what sub driver suitable for them, which jordan's are pretty fast
any suggestion? |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by _henry_
but what sub driver suitable for them, which jordan's are pretty fast
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I ahve not found a "sub" that works, to do a good job of integration you need something good up to at least 500k.
If these protos work with the FF85k they should work well with most... the SDX7 is not officially a sub, but the previous proto indicates that close to 20 is achievable (sealed with a touch of boost -- possible because of XBL2)
What was really startling was how extended the woofers alone run full range and listened to facing to the side were.
dave |
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| castlesteve |
| quote: | Originally posted by bezobraznia
Hello,
I'm consider building home theatre speakers...
Topology that i choose is subwoofer + five channels i.e. 5.1
For soobwoofer i've choose two Peerless XLS10'' drivers. I think building one or two subwoofers with passive radiators in sealed 30l. The most question is for the other five channels.
I think about fullranges, maybe in small boxes... i really don't know. Maybe fostex, I like how they look with white cones, but what model will be suitable with XLS10 sub? I'm not sure about dependancy of SPL of front, back and center channels. For example for front speakers i may use FE207 dirvers , for rear - FE167, for center two FE 167 or FE127 drivers. Will i have to use recomended tweeters from Fostex for these drivers because except clear mid freqs i like clear high freqs too... Maybe other fullranges? I was thinking about EJJordans, but then i will exceed my budget, which is not exactly fixed btw... Anyway..
If any suggestions - You are welcome!
Thanks in advance!
Reggards!
p.s. If moderators consider that this thread is not for fullranges forum (because of more that two drivers construction, especialy including sub), then feel free moving in in another subforum. Thank You |
I would go with 5 Aurasound NS3-8a fullrange drivers in small cubes such as these:
http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=394352
I have a pair of these drivers and for home theatre they will be much better than the FF85Ks as they will reach down to blend with the sub better. |
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