| Any interest in an acrylic platter group buy, and a bearing? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Nanook |
just trying to test the waters concerning offering a 43 mm acrylic platter and bearing assembly. NO $$ value set yet, I'll have to get a quote based on number interested.
Machined acrylic plater, .005" label area recess, 315mm diameter. If bearing not purchased then drilled for .25" to allow for machining of bearing of your choice.
Bearing design to be conventional, non-inverted type (mainly to keep costs down). Robust housing, hardened shaft, bearing and bearing end plate.
I've got something like a week or maybe a week and one half to decide on this. Delivery to take something in the order of 8 weeks.
Again, to start, this is only to check interest. If high enough to justify the expense then will set an "official" group buy.
stew |
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| shallbehealed |
| Any chance you could ballpark the $ amount? |
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| Nanook |
I am really just checking the amount of interest. The amount of interest will dictate the price as all know quantities effect the quote.
I have a figure in my mind, that I think most would find suitable enough, but I am unsure if it's realistic enough (hence the inquiry). This may turn into an ongoing commercial concern, however any that commit (once the price is finalized) would be provided with the platter and bearing at the original quoted price.
There may also be a limited number of tonearms available as part of the group buy.
stew |
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| Luke |
what else would be required to get a fully operational turntable? I imagine one would need to buy a motor and controller and make a suitable base? Are motors/controllers easy to buy for diyers and how hard is it to get one up and running costs etc?
Would something like this outperforma good used turntable? So many questions:-) |
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| Nanook |
what else would be needed for a complete table?- motor
- pulley
- electronics to control the motor
- plinth(s)
- tonearm
- power supply for motor
- feet and some hardware
- wiring for the tonearm, and motor
this is an offshoot of a commercial product that I have been involved in the design with, but may never see the light of day.
All the above products would be available as part of a kit, or separately. For example, if a Rega owner wanted a new plinth, one could be made available, as long as the person could provide accurate measurements for the placement of the tonearm, bearing well and motor attachment. Same could be said of the platter, provide dimensions accurately, and it could be made available. Think of it as a DIY turntable project, custom made to your specifications. That way you could source exactly what you wanted, where you wanted.
For example, if you want to use an Origin Live motor, get the motor from them, the platter from me, etc. Again, this is mainly a "custom" approach. Materials would have to be limited to a few choices.
I too would limit tonearm mounting to a common one, say a Rega or Linn mounting distance, drilled for that particular tonearm base. SME type arm mounting may not be out of the question either.
And it all depends on the number of folks interested. (and as long as no one tries to infringe on someone else's ownership of designs, copyrights, etc)
As far as outperforming a good used table, I guess that would depend on the used turntable. I am not saying it wouldn't, but is it a used Goldmund? or a Teres? or a $10000 "super deck? I'm thinking that perhaps a complete table without a tonearm could be put together for something in the neighborhood of $1000-$1300 or less (if you build your own plinth for example, less). Most likely similar in performance to the original Teres (although not a copy, other than perhaps in concept). I've prototyped a turntable using an old bearing from a discarded direct drive turntable, bearing cost=$0.00. So a complete table will cost whatever one wants to purchase vs salvage for the construction of it.
I hope to have some pricing in the near future to post,. I'll announce it here, and in the analog and vendor's section as well when I confirm the pricing.
stew |
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| johnandchris |
Hi.
I would be interested, dependent on price of course. I have just conceived the idea of a diy turntable after i re-discovered a guitar template machined from solid mahogany, sitting unused in my garage. my pro-ject platter fits perfectly on the guitar body and the finished article will, i believe look fantastic. Quick question though, how do you determine how far away form the spindle (ie center of the platter) you place the arm mounting. Is there a formula. My Pro-ject is 20 cm (normal??????).
Regards
John |
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| Nanook |
| well mainly you need to know the arm length (effective) and the overhang, as well as the alignment "style" the manufacturer used, and the headshell "offset"(in degrees). This information may be available from your turntable manual or on the 'net. 20cm seems on the short side to me but I don't know the Pro-ject products. |
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| Ed LaFontaine |
I'm watching with great interest. I'm to receive some goodies from the recent Maxxon GB.
Thanks |
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| kropf |
I would be interested in the platter, if the price is right. Not so much interest in the bearing.
Jeremy |
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| DaveM |
| I would likely be interested in a bearing. |
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| paudux |
I would need to know a few more details, but could would be interested.
Cheers |
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| Nanook |
just a teaser of the prototype. pretty much all parts would be available, or as a complete piece if you would like.
The turntable with an arm and cartridge is aimed at $1500-$1700, so less than Teres, etc. Complete tables less arm and cart available and pretty much any permutation of parts .
stew |
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| SY |
| I'm interested. I have a motor and plans for drive electronics. I could upgrade my old VPI, but a new table is pretty appealing. |
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| Nanook |
seeing that my Avatar IS Richard Feynman....
ok, so it seems the interest is high enough to proceed. I'll get quotes in the next little while. I did try to post a picture of the protype (the arm in the photo is not the intended arm) and shrink it to fit, but somehow I can't....so I will post a pix if I can shrink it and post directly here.
The arm will either be a custom one or a Famous brand thats starts with R and ends with A, but reworked with a custom weight, VTA adjuster and finger nut adjustment. Re-wire kits can be had as well. This arm would be an upcharge of course. Like I said, pretty much everything will be available. Choose as much or as little as you want. One of the problems thusfar is the motor. The controller is done, and works but the motor is simply too small, need to source a Maxxon or Asian built unit to do the job.
stew |
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| shallbehealed |
| Ok, now I'm interested. |
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| jackies |
I will certainly be interested in an acrylic platter.
Unless price is exorbitant.
Let's see! |
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| Tristanc1 |
colour me interested as well:)
Tristan |
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| Nanook |
I don't think I'll get an answer tomorrow. The platter is 43 mm thick with a .005" deep label area (kinda odd to use metric and "English" units in a description). The cg of the platter is approximately 18mm down from the top of the platter , based on a 12 mm pilot near the top and a 60mm diameter bearing housing. The platter is currently designed as 315mm in diameter.
The belt is intended to ride at or slightly above that point, and the bearing "ball" is designed to sit below, some 30mm. the hardened steel shaft is expected to be 10mm in diameter and 35mm in length and to be replaceable (as well as the hardened steel ball, and hardened steel thrust plate).
The plinth may also be available. I'm getting quotes on all pieces before I post any. The only thing I would recommend against is perhaps the motor, until that is sorted.
Here's another sketchup sketch of the turntable to give you an idea. |
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| markgall |
I am interested as well.
Mark |
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| mantisory |
also interested.
I am also wondering, would it not be feasible to use a teres motor assembly or something like that?
b |
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| sklimek |
| Interested in the platter and bearing! |
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| sreten |
some of those bits look familiar : http://www.revolveraudio.co.uk/replay.htm
The large offset between platter hieght and arm mounting plane
could cause problems with arm mounting, looks somewhat awkward.
:)/sreten. |
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| Greg Nuspel |
| I've been day dreaming again soon I'll start making it. |
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| Mikewong |
| If the combination is within reach,then I would give it a try. |
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| Nanook |
Please know that this is a unique design and not actively copied from anyone. However, there really only a few ways to skin a cat, if the design parameters are the same or similar. The bearing is unique, the platter is 315mm in diameter, the thickness is 43mm, the label area is .005" deep. Presently I have a 40mm bearing housing, using a 20mm bearing shaft, and a 1mm hardened steel thrust surface. I am thinking that a total length of the bearing/housing will need to be in excess of 60mm.
I agree the tonearm mounting has not been optimized, and that needs to be addressed. I am thinking that a rotating arm board, with a mounting collar and a height of say 1" or so should provide the required vertical offset, and provide enough room to mount a 12" arm if so desired. This could be placed in the existing mounting location or another one.
C of G calculations put it at 18mm down from the top of the platter. The distance between the bottom of the platter and top plinth (or only plinth if so desired) needs to be reduced by at least half. The prototype used an old bearing from an old discarded direct drive (after I threw out the original bearing, because it was absolutely terrible). I'd say that overall, the turntable is easily on par with my Oracle. Even with the bodged bearing the sound is very robust and very quiet. The motor has its own electronics, but I do not like the housing nor the "pillars", they simply are not required unless trying to appear like a Delphi or similar.
Greg, email me directly as cnc machine work may be required.
Thanks to all that may be interested.
stew |
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| mantisory |
hey stew, i sent you an email.
b |
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| Vil |
| I am interested too ... |
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| Nanook |
I've been into the States and back today--what a gong show. Blizzard there and back. Picked up some demo loudspeakers, may do a follow up on them in affordable$$audio. Mark had them on extended loan from Totem Acoustics in Montreal. Initial impressions are very good. I need to email Mark and thank him for breaking them in for me:).
Because sreten indicated that the turntable prototype looks a lot like the Revolver, I need to do further research to ensure there is no theft of intellectual property. I was handed the turntable in a preliminary state, and tore it apart to literally nothing---all I could find were problems (other than the appearance). mainly the drive system which appears week, and the platter bearing.I have a completely dismantled tonearm to prove that portion. The motor is what I might consider a robust tape drive motor, with a nylon pulley--not the best solution. If it turns out that this table has been in fact "knocked off" or copied directly from the Revolver, then a complete redesign will be done (unless the original source of both of the turntables turns out to be the same place, and they released it to us--if they owned the design).
Like I said I was brought in on this preproduction project to try to get the kinks out of it, and there are quite a few.
This table (the Revolver) presently sells for something like $3350 in Canada with what appears to be an old Audioquest tonearm. Even for the complete table we were aiming for a sub $1800 price, based on manufacturing costs, without tonearm. I was hoping for a turnkey price with a Rega RB250 in the neighbourhood under $2200. Once I can get the new platter price and bearing design and dimensions firmed up, we can set the price for the complete table, and for parts.
Personally I'd prefer to buy all parts and construct the "complete" tables myself so that I know when they go to their final destinations, they have been completely function tested, and speed checked, then dismantled and shipped. Obviously parts is parts, so the bearings and platters would be trial fitted and OK'd. I am seeking local manufacture of the bearing so that QC can be maintained.
so thanks to all for the interest. I'm gonna completely vacate and ignore all things internet for a few days so that I can sort out what's what, double check my bearing design ( which has not been presented to anyone outside of this forum, or my direct business aquaintances.
I will check my email, and respond to all who have posted me, but will ignore all else until at least Monday so that I can actually get some work done.
stew |
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| kilowattski |
| I am interested. Since this will be a low mass design will there be suspension parts for sale beyond simple cones? Maybe fluid damping or something? |
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| pekka |
Platter & bearing definitely interest me. Looking forward to more details (& pricing of course). ;)
Pekka |
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| kilowattski |
| If there is no suspension, I would beef up the plinth with some damping material. |
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| SvErD |
| I'm interested in platter and bearing also. |
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| Nanook |
well the main plinth is Granite, so "mass dampened". Also I would use a compliant block between the upper and lower plinths. The upper "plinth" or sub-chassis or whatever one would call it is made of MDF (ugh!). I'd make one from wood, Baltic Birch, Ikea maple cutting board, or a very light weight, non-energy storing material or torsion box. It may even be possible to get it in a coloured Acrylic, but at additional cost over the standard. Sorbothane feet or half squash balls or similar could be used between the two. The towers serve no purpose, except the rear left hand side one which is where the factory installed the cheap and cheesy toy motor, which should be completely modified or removed any ways (particularly if the Maxon Group Buy folks are to use the sub-chassis parts).
As far as cosmetics go, I really like the clean classic lines of the Xerses10 and 20. And my mag SME309 or improved Nanook's $2.19 tonearm would look pretty stunning.
to all...seems like somehow I've managed to cause someone to complain to the moderators that I am designing and product developing here (which hasn't been the case./ I have not changed the design of the TT or any parts, except on my own ), so this thread may be moved to the vendor's forum. Also all need to know that the availability of all of the parts (or any) is directly out of my control, I am relying on the maker of the table to allow me to get the parts, and mod them accordingly or have them do it. That is why all the ambiguity concerning pricing ---the availability and the costs of re-designing/engineering/custom machining that may need to be done.
I am in the process of contacting the moderators directly. It doesn't matter to me where they end up wanting to put the thread, but know this---I am working independently of the existing designs for bearings, although there are only so many ways one can do it. I like the JA Michell oil pump type (did they rip it off from Garrard?), and the Teres type (they admit to "ripping off" certain features from JC Verdier --the balanced mass approach)
I have the bearing and platter drawn ion sketchup using my modified dimensions. I need to redesign the upper "plinth" or sub-chassis and redraw it to reflect my current taste for aesthetics.
stew |
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| Nanook |
all,
please have a look at the image "two turntables". Only meant as an idea of finishing a table.
the bearing drawing is completed as are the two "plinth styles" and the platter
Obviously not everyone's taste, but typical of many tables out there.
enjoy. Now that the drawing is done, I'll work at getting the quotes together, or if existing parts are available for the bearing, a list of what might be needed (from McMaster & Carr or similar).
I haven't settled on materials for the bearing, but most probably a sintered bronze bushing, ceramic or hardened steel ball, a thrust plate (teflon or hardened steel or polished unobtainium), with a brass body.
So folks please stay tuned. Once I get in touch with those that can quote me, I'll post the results as soon as possible.
As I suggested earlier, this may be moved to the vendor's forum.
stew |
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| kilowattski |
| I would not use McMaster Carr for a source for the Acrylic. I just bought a 13" x 13" piece of cast acrylic for $175 from a distributor. McMaster is easily double that. |
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| Greg Nuspel |
| McMaster-Carr is a great "I need it tomorrow" supplier but the premium is usually doubling the price. If this is a group buy then 4x8 sheets can be purchased and waterjet cut for the blanks. |
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| DaveM |
| Oddly, I am most often of that opinion, but there have been a number of times that I have been unable to find cheaper anywhere else. I think this was mostly with hardware, but I was surprised that their prices are sometimes very competitive. The exception is when it comes to material. Almost universally, their material is more expensive. |
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| Nanook |
I've pretty much nailed the supplier for all parts down. Right now, I am "guestimating" the cost for the bearing and the platter in the $450, but hoping for a further reduced price. It may be less, but I don't want to get everybody's hopes up just to find out that I can't get may hands on the the parts from my intended supplier.
As the supplier is offshore, there is always a chance that they don't fully understand the intension, and may make an error. That's the difficulty with the commercial portion of this product, so, I must keep this in mind and make some kind of allowance for this as well (or pay for a single custom bearing constructed here and sent to the supplier).
All, please take note, that some caution must occur to ensure no theft of intellectual property occurs (something that many offshore makers don't consider), and that any possible pricing break is relying on someone else to be able to negotiate. So keep your fingers (and toes) crossed. This could work out very well for all, or pretty bad.
Should the source of the parts not be able to comply, we can discuss other possibilities. If no consensus can be had, then any drawings will be offered to all to alter or have machined parts to whatever specification done on an individual basis by the machinist of your choice.
stew |
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| kilowattski |
| Have you contacted Vinyl Addict about machining the main bearing?I understand he is a Top Notch Master Machinist and he just happens to be a turntable guru. I would rather see him make some money out of this and pay a top price to make sure it is done right. Even if it were to take a while it would be worth the wait. I don't know if he would be interested but it would be worth asking him. |
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| Nanook |
I have no problems contacting Vinyl Addict, and getting a qoute. I have solidified a local machinist, but yet to receive a quote.
I think I have what I believe to be an original design for the bearing, so no thoughts of intellectual property" issues. I also have another design in the wings that may proove to be at least as quiet and able to carry a "loaded" platter (if anyone wants to do that), and a bonus is theat it may be less expensive to have made.
stew |
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| neil_kaye |
Hi,
I have been following this thread with great interest and intend on taking part in the buy.
This post is by no means a criticism of the work done so far and i greatly appreciate the commitment and work put into this product to date. The comments i have revolve around industrial design and i have been wondering if we can push the plinth design a little harder. In Nanook's own words the design is pretty typical of what is out there but since we are going to all this effort of a custom design perhaps we could question some of those assumptions.
It strikes me that the more interesting and beautiful turn tables reduce the plinth to the bear minimum. This helps the platter and arm read as the essential objects. For instance the Simon York design http://stereophile.com/turntables/1207sim/
attempts to remove the plinth all together whilst the Audio monaco table integrates the plinth and platter into a "seamless" single object.
http://stereophile.com/turntables/1107gp/
There is something about the platter and the plinth being of the same massing that i think makes the entire turntable far more elegant.
See the wilson bench turntable
http://stereophile.com/turntables/1198wilson/
My thoughts anyway... thanks |
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| Nanook |
well, this is where individuality may come in.
I've drawn up a "Constructor" plinth, I beam IRON, allowed to rust in an appropriate manner welded into an "X", with the intersection of the "X" the strongest point and where I would put the main bearing if I were to build it. lots of clear acrylic so it would mimic many of the materials in "skyscrapers".I also like particularly "traditional" appearing turn tables, like the Roksan Xerses .
The turntables linked to are absolutely stunning. But it is almost like the more skeletal, the more common (consider how uncommon the original Oracle Delphi, Ja Michell, and the Transcriptors original looked when first intoduced) today.
If a Garrard style or Thorens style plinth similar to the Shindo Labs or Loricraft is desired, that's easy enough.
In no way am I thinking that there is a "universal plinth design" out there for everyone to make, or buy.
Maybe I'll power mine with a small block Chevy (a 302 is preferable) and call it the "Z28" or "COPO" or something similar. Hmmm , 4.00" bore X 3.00" stroke = 7200 rpm + of fun. :c_flag:
and of course it would have to be "hugger orange" as all good '69 zeds were.
By the way Neil, if those PAWOs are your's with Jordan drivers, I'm jealous---really jealous |
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| kilowattski |
| quote: | Originally posted by neil_kaye
Hi,
I have been following this thread with great interest and intend on taking part in the buy.
This post is by no means a criticism of the work done so far and i greatly appreciate the commitment and work put into this product to date. The comments i have revolve around industrial design and i have been wondering if we can push the plinth design a little harder. In Nanook's own words the design is pretty typical of what is out there but since we are going to all this effort of a custom design perhaps we could question some of those assumptions.
It strikes me that the more interesting and beautiful turn tables reduce the plinth to the bear minimum. This helps the platter and arm read as the essential objects. For instance the Simon York design http://stereophile.com/turntables/1207sim/
attempts to remove the plinth all together whilst the Audio monaco table integrates the plinth and platter into a "seamless" single object.
http://stereophile.com/turntables/1107gp/
There is something about the platter and the plinth being of the same massing that i think makes the entire turntable far more elegant.
See the wilson bench turntable
http://stereophile.com/turntables/1198wilson/
My thoughts anyway... thanks |
This is DIY Audio. The price on the first table is $19,500. I would say that this design is a little beyond the scope of this group buy. The target price of this group buy turntable as Nanook stated, is $1500 to $1900. The idea here is to design for the best sound, not the most eye pleasing. If you want something like turntables you outlined, fire up your computer, load in Autocad and start designing. Make a prototype and why not start your own group buy. |
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| neil_kaye |
| thanks for your response Nanook, as i previously said, regardless of the plinth design i am excited about your product and look forward to seeing it realized. |
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| Nanook |
Ideas of design are just that. All I'm trying to do here is check the interest, and to check to see if I actually get the stuff.
As far as design goes (as industrial design), that's really up to everyone else to look at individually. I know my table will end up being hacked together, 'cause I can use sketchup but have two left thumbs (one on each hand). My sketches look better than anything I've built.
kilowattski, I know the complete turntable can be had for that, because the commercial version would sell in thet range complete (less cart).
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| Nanook |
have a look, definitely "industrial" in design.
stew |
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| mantisory |
my thinking is to go with as much mass as possible using wood. in the end, I will probably go with something like the teres. The use of wood makes for a nice look and sound.
Of course, I will try to come up with something original as well :)
B |
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| steenoe |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
have a look, definitely "industrial" in design.
stew |
The Constructor.
I am interested too:)
If these are usefull as a TT motor, I dont know, but I can get these Maxon motors for approx 15usd a piece (surplus)
DC-motor
6V-24V / 1A
Omdrejningstal: v/12V - 3000VPM
Fabrikat: Maxon
Model: 2140.935-00
Mål:
Motor: LxØ: 44 x 40 mm
Aksel: LxØ: 7 x 2,5 mm
:) |
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| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook Maybe I'll power mine with a small block Chevy (a 302 is preferable) and call it the "Z28" or "COPO" or something similar. Hmmm , 4.00" bore X 3.00" stroke = 7200 rpm + of fun. :c_flag:
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Hey Stew, you can have the 350 that's in my old truck. Just don't try to spin it up to 7200.:bomb:
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
and of course it would have to be "hugger orange" as all good '69 zeds were. |
I remember looking at an orange one on a lot here around the late 70's. If it had of been blue or green, I probably would have bought it.
Oh, and it was showroom too.:bawling:
Jeff |
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| Nanook |
don't read or speak any language but English (and not that well)
40mm diameter body
graphite brush-less
4-6 watts (depends on the motor, there should be some additional number on it)
For USD $15 I'd get one and experiment with it.
I prefer wood tables...too many have proven their performance in the past. Teres, Redpoint, Linn, and on and on and on. (and I still want a Xerses when I can afford one.)
302 or death.... 280 hp at 3200 rpm (or something stupid like that), =560 hp maxxed out (never believe the lies some told about how wimpy that little mouse was). |
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| steenoe |
Ok Here is the precise model number, gleaned from the pic's:
2140.935-00, 111-012
And it says Swiss made;)
:) |
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| mantisory |
| I always tended to the mopar big blocks for myself. ;) |
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| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
I haven't settled on materials for the bearing, but most probably a sintered bronze bushing, ceramic or hardened steel ball, a thrust plate (teflon or hardened steel or polished unobtainium), with a brass body.
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Sounds like a recipe for an inverted bearing with no oil bath.:up:
Jeff |
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| igrant |
Big block Olds 455 with W30 designation bluepriniting worked for me, horsepower is cool but torque rules the street race, if you can get it to the rear wheels and get them to stick.
Real wood is great, just need to be careful as to where it comes from and where it is going. That humidity/warping thing. |
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| Nanook |
and the W31 olds Rockets were incredible performers, lighter engine than a SBC, and equally good if tweeked right (ala, Warren Johnson--Ian, you should remember him).
B and RB (as well as pretty much all Mopars) are big bore /small stroke. An example: 383 "B" block. 4.125" bore, 3.38 stroke (and long rods 6.675? if memory serves me correctly),. 350 SBC: 4"bore, 3.48 stroke, 5.700 rods.. wonder which one has the most "buzz" potential? hey, hey...
steenoe, I'll look a little further into THAT motor for you. The only real differences are watts and available torque ... |
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| Nanook |
news flash: steenoe --- The complete number is no longer listed by Maxon, however, I'd guess that it is an OEM version of the 22.112 ...
so specs would be very similar to what I previously posted. it seems nominal voltage is 15VDC, although it also has rpm/V = 275. with a 12 V DC supply, you'd end up with 3300rpm. assuming the platter is 315 mm in diameter, you'd need a pulley with 3.18 (approx) mm diameter.
Go lower in Voltage and you can use a larger pulley.
stew |
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| Greg Nuspel |
I'm starting to think we might be building the camel of turntables (designed by committee):D
It will be hard to satisfy so many people with one design specially since this is a do it yourself group. I think the best way to handle this is to offer what you have designed for yourself. If others want it then you get enough to make your group buy financially viable. |
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| Nanook |
Greg.
Ya, I was just being helpful, but I won't be re-designing what I already have done. And plinths are personal cosmetically and materials so what I have is what I'll use or at least access.
No commitee design here, I'm a dictator. I do have some pretty strong thoughts about what makes a good turntable:
I like suspensions, but feel unqualified to design one for a turntable
I still love my old Oracle Alex mk ll/SME 309/Grado Sig 8 MCZ
I wish I never sold my Heybrook TT2/Alphason Xenon setup
I have too many turntables (7-10 at any one time)
I want a Xerses/HR100 combo
I like wood
I like belts, but own and have liked some direct drives
The approach here was to basically begin by offering a good platter and bearing. These seem to be the toughest parts to access for most. Motors and control schemes usually can be cobbled together, as can a plinth. Tonearms are another budget breaker as well, so that may also be something to consider. I am still in awe of many who make great looking (and no doubt great sounding) tonearms with a pair of tin snips and an beer can. I have been attempting to source a DIY tonearm materials package, that if followed could give excellent performance, or some ready made solutions (Rega, Jelco, etc. maybe even some Technics if Matsushita would be willing).
The acrylic platter and bearing was/is something I have been working on, and it just makes sense to offer that as the "basis" (sorry for the Basis pun, but intended ;) ). Good heavy, mass dampened designs are relatively easy, so that is where to offer the most for the least.
So I won't be doing any more, "what do you think?" posts anymore, nor individual help unless specific to the Bearing and platter , and their fit to appropriate plinths. That could be an interesting thread in the "analog" forum.
stew |
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| steenoe |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
news flash: steenoe --- The complete number is no longer listed by Maxon, however, I'd guess that it is an OEM version of the 22.112 ...
so specs would be very similar to what I previously posted. it seems nominal voltage is 15VDC, although it also has rpm/V = 275. with a 12 V DC supply, you'd end up with 3300rpm. assuming the platter is 315 mm in diameter, you'd need a pulley with 3.18 (approx) mm diameter.
Go lower in Voltage and you can use a larger pulley.
stew |
Stew, thank you very much for the info. Its much appreiciated. I am new to working with TT's at a constructing level so the info is very valuable. Not new to TT's at a user level though, have been using them for 40 years;)
Looking forward to see what you end up with.
:) |
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| Nanook |
it's looking like the platters and bearings are possible. just need to finalize the spec. I think they will come in near what I suggested earlier... $450 or less for both the platter and the bearing (together for one each)...43 mm platter...
Spent the day drawing and finalizing the shape/design of the platter bearing system,.
A little patience is all I ask for....
stew |
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| Nanook |
and it kills.
more bass than the Oracle I have... a little more "hifi" --ish than the Oracle but not analytical at all. Replaced the artist's tape belt with 1/4" cassette tape.. excellent.
Initial responses have been that I may be able to beat the projected price...
stay tuned...
stew |
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| Ed LaFontaine |
| I'm interested in the separate pricing for the bearing and the platter. |
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| jims |
Count me in for both the platter and bearing.
JimS |
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| Pathmark |
I would be interested in as many components as you are sourcing.
thanks,
pathmark |
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| Nanook |
Well I had the bearing designed, but hated the possible motor height in regards to the bearings, so a re-design has happened. The idea is to use the "balanced mass" approach as per Verdier. To me this approach makes a lot of sense.
The "new" bearing (as a prototype) is at the machinist's, now being an inverted type. Once we get the bearing back and I dimension it exactly, and I get a quote on say 20 pairs of platter/bearings then we can set a price and a proposed delivery date. This is a little like the Maxon motor group buy, just that the delays are at the front end, instead of at the back end (thanks Sylvain).
I understand that many would like the bearing or platter, not both. I've taken that into consideration. It is easier to get the items as pairs---but enough about the logistics. Once the price is set, this will happen very quickly. I suggest as little as 14 days to receive the parts after the order is placed. Prior to ordering, the majority of those who are ordering will need to pay via Paypal (only because it is quickest and easiest), so as not to expose myself to the considerable financial liability. Of course, shipping and packaging charges will be charged on an individual basis. For my friends south of the 49th parallel, I'll take a drive to the states and ship via USPS or UPS. If I take the drive, it will save you on shipping charges.
Thanks to everyone for their patience. I guess I didn't realize the amount of time these things can take |
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| mantisory |
unfortunately i missed out on the Maxon group buy...I am looking at buying a teres i think...
b |
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| Nanook |
well..you could.. but I think our stuff here might interest you a little. No, not a Teres, not as mass loaded as one, but the main plinth design is. I guess it depends on what you think is the best solution for you.
The platter is an acrylic one, with a .005" deep label area. 315 mm diameter platter, 43 mm thick. Now an inverted bearing type. But substantially less expensive than Teres. But not a direct competitor to the Teres products, simply not as massive overall. Unsure if Teres still offers an acrylic platter.
Please do not mis-construe this as a "slam" against Teres, Redpoint or Gibraltar turntables. What we will end up with here is a competaent turntable competing with many designs in the $3k range (including tonearm if reasonable quality--RB250 modded...etc).
I do have a line on some very nice RB250 tonearms with custom weight, "structural mods",...etc. Priced very well below the retail...
stew |
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| mantisory |
| no, i meant that i may look at buying a teres motor, or possibly an origin...i missed the maxon group buy, that's all...still interested in the bearing/platter :) |
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| Nanook |
but not a Maxon, perhaps a National?
thanks for your support to all that have shown interest. Once finished details are completed, the results will be posted.
stew |
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| nameci |
| I'm interested in platter and bearing. |
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| fortytwo |
I know this is prolly a bit late to chime in but i just finished my turntable project. I had my bearing made out of stainless steel and bronze. I had a delrin thrust plate made with a single hardened ball bearing (out of a roller bearing) at the bottom. It cost me about 80 bucks us. This was done a a local machine shop. The tolerances were so tight that when placed to gether the bearing would make an air seal and would not press together. I eventually polished the stainless and assembled with silicone oil.
I have a drawing at my thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...&threadid=53724
MY platter (aircraft grade al) cost me about 50 bucks and i had a tech college machine it on their spare time. To quote the professer "It is nice to have something for my students to make other than the generic builds" In fact they enjoyed making alot of my weird peices.
MY arcrillic knowledge is such. The thicker you go the expotentially more expensive the acrillic becomes. If you are going thicker than 1 inch you will have to glue multiple layes together much like teres does. The ahisive is weld on 3 and it is water thin one has to dip one half of the platter rough into it then carefully place and presss it onto the other side.
Good luck
FortyTwo |
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| agent.5 |
| quote: | | If you are going thicker than 1 inch you will have to glue multiple layes together much like teres does. |
Not true. McMaster sells acrylic sheets upward of 4" |
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| markgall |
| quote: | | do have a line on some very nice RB250 tonearms with custom weight, "structural mods",...etc. Priced very well below the retail... |
I am most definitely interested in one of these arms. That's the last piece to my TT puzzle other than making a plinth.
Mark |
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| fortytwo |
| quote: | Originally posted by agent.5
Not true. McMaster sells acrylic sheets upward of 4" |
True it is avalible. Because the thicker it is the longer it take for a sheet to cure it cost alot more to manufacture. a 12 inch by 12 inch by 4 inch peice from mmc costs 404.41 while a 1 inch sheet cost 40.41 (times 4 = 160.xx). These costs are also high compared to opening up your yellow pages and buying it locally. You can even ask if they have remenants that are big enough. I paid 35 bucks for a 1 inch peice to build my plynth out of. although a 2 inch 12 by 12 costs 72.84.
My only point is to be resourcefull. MY entire table is built out of oddes and ends. It doesn't hurt to ask. I just think that 450 dollars is a bit high, if you take the specs and drawings (i have one posted and gazzafloyd does also) to a machine shop ask how much it will costs. Find a plastic suppler get delrin and acrillic.
Thanks
Ed Owens |
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| Nanook |
But I don't have access to a student to do the work in his spare time, nor can I count on one. Besides the DIY aspect, there is also the commercial considerations for the complete turntables.
as for fortytwo's bearing, I had a local "high-end"machine shop do a bearing that was totally unsatisfactory and it was over $300.
This group buy is in concert with the commercial product and is intended to supply some difficult to find, or terribly expensive parts at a reasonable cost. That way we can say with some pride that we built the table, and end up with something that actually looks and sounds the part.
I agree regarding the cost of acrylic, that many sheets can be had and glued and machined. Someplace I even suggested that to someone on this very forum (diyAudio) as a means of lowering costs. At a manufacturing level, the savings aere in favor of the single sheet approach.Same with the bearing...perhaps cheaper alternatives are out there.
But, and this is a big BUT, my proposed total costs to the group buy is something in the order of $400-450 for the pair. That's for a thick single piece 43mm platter and a high quality bearing, an optimized drive pulley location to help minimize friction (as per Verdier).
There are many ways to skin a cat. This is one way. Everybody is welcome to do as they please of course.
as far as the arms are concerned, I need to get enough interest to get em a decent price. They retail for $600
stew |
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| fortytwo |
Nanook you mentioned your bearing you had made was unsatifactory. Was the issue in the design or was it in the tolerances?
A suggestion to help the GB save money would also be to have the platters not polished and allow the users to finish them. I know teres also used to offer this option. One can polish it with buffing it with a polishing wheel and compound or heat or hand sanding.
FortyTwo |
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| Nanook |
the implementation. The design was my own, but was a throwback to the days of new Garrard 301s and Thorens 124s....but poorly implemented
No polishing of the platters, as this is labour intensive and expensive...and I like the look of "frosted" or natural machined look, and as you said Teres offered it as an option.
The bearing as it now stands is an inverted type with the design to allow the centre of the bearing to be at the CofG of the platter... I think I've pretty much finished with the parameters and the design (a third re-design). I have to simply stop and get a prototype delivered and tested to ensure satisfactory results, or else I dare say most or all will lose interest and get bored of promises.
we'd end up having the same discussions with each other in a month if I don't get this done, instead of spinning records on our new decks:)
stew |
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| Nanook |
of those interested and in what. Once I get the prototype and ensure the quality and sound is what I think we're after, I'll get photos and provide the "real cost" to GB members.
Wish my brothers were closer, cause I could get some of this stuff done by them or their buddies (all millwrights and machinists). The local machinist working on this is perhaps the most fusy that I have ever met, and a great guy to boot. Just didn't know he did "projects" in the evenings.
Please email me at nellsk@hotmail.com to verify that you are still interested, and that the list is accurate.
Hope to have a cost set by tomorrow, as discussing things with the supplier early tomorrow morning.
stew
just notice mike wong listed twice.. .sorry. |
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| Nanook |
from the machinist and the maker. I've found another turntable that is essentially the same, but priced at 1800 less tonearm... (I can even RETAIL this table at a lower price complete with an arm) for a lower price and make enough money to live ... who'd a thunk it?
Our table (both the GB and commercial design) will have essentially the same platter , but a custom inverted bearing (similar to the Opera Audio bearing---but not theirs.). Also the motor height has been changed to allow for the CoG of the platter/bearing to be inline with the belt drive.
I know : lots of promises thus far, but the stock tables we have tried actually suck (a little), and the changes and improvements are (at least theoretically) worthy of doing. The proof will be in the comparisons.
It does appear that I may be able to get my hands on some modified Rega tonearms, with new counter weight, VTA base, and VTA nut. Internal wiring is as stock, but easy to improve (a great DIY project). Once the bearing/platter issues and delivery can be arranged, then I "ll get more serious about the tonearm. I have to buy 10 at a time to allow me to purchase, so unless I get that much interest, then none can be had, I leave that to the rest of you.
stew |
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| Nanook |
for all that have shown interest,:
A new supplier for the platter has been found that can provide turn-around time of 14 days o. allow a week for me to get the stuff, repack it and send it out. Price needs to be established, as a formal quote has not been provided. But based on the 1 email exchange it seems like a real possibility.
The option to have platter "blanks" may also exist, to be provided for you to finish dimensionally to your needs. Basically the platter with a 1/4" pilot hole (and these may exceed the cost of the completed platters based on quantity).
Expecting the locally made prototype bearing within the next week, and a cost estimate, based on 18 bearings.
The original supplier hasn't shown much interest as to last contact. They may come through yet.
As soon as I have more information, I will post an UPDATE: GB platter /bearing or open a new thread..
Thanks to all that have continued to have interest in this,: it re-energizes me every email or response I get. Prior to anything formal occurring I will email all and ask for a commitment indicator and payment prior to ordering. I simply do not have the funds to cover the costs. PayPal would probably be the best way to proceed. If any are concerned, an escrow feature can be used. Once all interested have committed, I will go ahead and order the pieces.
stew |
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| Vinyl-Addict |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
for all that have shown interest,:
The option to have platter "blanks" may also exist, to be provided for you to finish dimensionally to your needs. Basically the platter with a 1/4" pilot hole (and these may exceed the cost of the completed platters based on quantity).
stew |
Stew, I would be cautious about getting a pilot hole drilled. If you don't have the right equipment to finish the holesize, you may completely ruin the platter. If you are experienced with machining acrylic, you know what I mean. Acrylic needs to be machined all over, otherwise it will wobble/runout very badly. Measure (with a micrometer) an acrylic blank of any size and you will see that the thickness will vary by a large amount from end to end.
I wouldn't recommend cutting acrylic without the right machinery/equipment or knowledge. |
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| Nanook |
The idea was for those that do not want the proposed bearing, just a platter (as they may already have a bearing). It would be upto them to get it finish machined. I am not a machinist, nor pretend to be. This second supplier is an acrylic specialist, pretty much all they do is acrylic, polycarbonate, Lexan, etc.
I am not sure they will break the order up into individual specifications. I can check with them if that is possible without affecting the majority who have shown interest (by having the overall amount go up even those who want the bearing AND the platter), because the total number of one specification may go down. The material is quite expensive though, so maybe it is a possibility. And the platter thickness would either decrease to 38.1mm or increase to 44.45mm. The difference in cost will be provided, but I would think it better to retain the original 43mm thickness and allow both sides of the platter to be milled flat.
Based on your experience, would you suggest no holes be put into the platters to be sold to those who already have their bearing from elsewhere?
Originally the idea was to have an off-shore supplier provide the bearing and the platter, but they have essentially zero enthusiasm regarding some measly little sales to North America. The freight was the killer in this scenario. They may still respond, and if so I will entertain their quote, but I am very encouraged by the second supplier. They seem serious, even though they know there will not be alot of money in it for them compared to their usual volume. I think I may have piqued their curiosity. Unfortunately the cost per item will increase, but the freight will decrease by (hopefully) a similar amount. A typical 14 day turn-around has been quoted.
Thanks Vinyl-Addict for both your comments here and your personal email in response to my private inquiry to you. I wish there was the opportunity to have you consider this work, but alas, you're very busy (which is great for you, but sux for me:( )
For many that may not know, Vinyl-Addict makes some very well reviewed analog modifications for a well known turntable. I might openly promote him and his site, but as I hadn't asked him if he would feel comfortable with that, I won't. If he responds to me thinking it OK, I would gladly privately email any who might want the web page location.
Good night all... things are actually starting to move !
stew |
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| Greg Nuspel |
| If people wanted just discs of plastics we could arrange to have a sheet cut on our waterjet into discs. It would be up to individuals to machine them to their own specifications. I could run the nesting program and see how many 12 1/4" discs could come out of a 4'x 8' sheet. The machine uses rather expensive abrasive but it is very fast at cutting plastics so the price shouldn't be too bad per disc. At least you would have a rough disc to start with. If people wanted special sizes the price would be very expensive unless a full sheet is cut then per disc the price would be reasonable. We use a Flow with a dynamic cutting head so there is very little taper compared to most waterjets. |
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| Nanook |
I will wait to see if a per piece accommodation can be made for various bearings (but I won't be recalculating everything for everyone... kinda like design by "camel" earlier in this thread)
Material will be 1-1/2'"(38.1 mm) or 1-3/4"(44.45 mm) depending on the quoted price of materials. If not more than 10% difference, I think the thicker is the choice, as it allows the platters to be milled on both sides. I guess it really depends on what the acoustical properties of the various thicknesses are.
I know I can get upto 3" slabs of the stuff, but I can also get 3" granite too! (sorry if that seems a little facetious). Speaking of Granite, Granite plinths may be available in convenient sizes....oops starting to sound like an audio pimp :guilty: |
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| nafanja |
Tell me Please : how many sm or milimeters from center
tonarm to center turndisc? |
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| Nanook |
first the easy answer to the easy question. : nanfanja, that depends on the tonearm you intend on using. Different arms require different mounting locations. The "standard" arms for 9" long ones are typically the Rega, the Linn, and the SME.
check out the vinyl engine for further details, it's a wonderful source of information and has many manuals and other reference materials.
and now the rest of the story...(for everyone interested in the group buy):
well it seems the original manufacturer has at least provided a quote. Thus far, everything is on target for the $400-$450 range. The only variable now is freight costs (which can be significant, especially if air freight), and a couple of questions to all you folks that have shown patience.
The manufacturer has suggested a 2 week turnaround time from time of order until time of shipping. How would you like to proceed? Should we wait until we get a prototype to me and then go from there, or do we just order and whatever I end up with, I make work, regardless of what comes to me?
The difference is at least 3 weeks. (say 2 weeks turnaround, 3 days for shipment, at least a day for implementation, and listening/quality control, report back to you, and then if all ordered within say a few days, 2 weeks for the product to get made, another 3 days for shipment). And then shipment to you.
(22 day difference)-that would put the cautious route 5 weeks out at least for delivery to you (except those in Europe, where the time difference may be greater). Also note that the freight charges are the responsibility of the end user for payment (from me to you). Does this seem OK?
Please provide all the feedback via the forum, and indications of purchase should be sent to: nellsk@hotmail.com .
For those thinking about estimating freight, US folks: estimate about 1/2 ft^3 and about 10 lbs. from Canadian Postal Code T1H 4V7, via the carrier of your choice.
All others: 12 litres volume, 4.4 kg mass, from same Canadian Postal Code T1H 4V7---sorry Europe, this may hurt a little :bawling:
Hope to have the final details completed in a day or two, then open up for Paypal payments, and leave the GB purchase option open for 1 week. Freight will not be charged via PayPal until the actual products are ready for shipping to the individual end users. Paypal account details will be emailed to each individually.
Thanks again for the patience, and the faith in me that many have given. It looks like it's all over but the crying now...
Oh, the NA sourced polished platters will no longer be an option (sorry).
stew |
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| sklimek |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
and now the rest of the story...(for everyone interested in the group buy):
The manufacturer has suggested a 2 week turnaround time from time of order until time of shipping. How would you like to proceed? Should we wait until we get a prototype to me and then go from there, or do we just order and whatever I end up with, I make work, regardless of what comes to me?
Hope to have the final details completed in a day or two, then open up for Paypal payments, and leave the GB purchase option open for 1 week.
stew |
Hi Stew, Good to hear the latest news. Speaking for myself I am not really in a hurry here. I would vote for the prototype just to make sure bearing and platter etc is functioning correctly. Also, would there be a problem if we waited to send payment until after the prototype checks out?
Thank you for your hard work and sharing on this GB.
Stan |
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| mantisory |
| yeah, i'd really want to make sure the prototype is good before investing anything. |
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| fortytwo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vinyl-Addict
If you are experienced with machining acrylic, you know what I mean. Acrylic needs to be machined all over, otherwise it will wobble/runout very badly. Measure (with a micrometer) an acrylic blank of any size and you will see that the thickness will vary by a large amount from end to end.
I wouldn't recommend cutting acrylic without the right machinery/equipment or knowledge. |
I have a qestion for anyone who is fimular with machining. Lats just say for instance i just bought a 13 inch by 6 foot lathe. What would be the proper machineing procedure to make a good straight platter? Right now the lathe is not delivered yet and i have no tooling.
thanks
Ed |
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| DaveM |
Yes in theory that lathe will do what you need. The tooling is equally important. The right chuck and tool holder as well as sharp tools are required. What kind of lathe are you looking at?
A more important thought... The tools are one thing, but the technique is more important than the tools being used. I have used substandard tools at home for years and can achieve good results with patience and good machining practice. Also there is also the fact that a 12" piece of material spinning at speed with a tool cutting it can easily be turned into a projectile without the proper technique. :bigeyes:
Safety first. Have fun. Relax this is supposed to be fun |
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| Vinyl-Addict |
| quote: | Originally posted by fortytwo
I have a qestion for anyone who is fimular with machining. Lats just say for instance i just bought a 13 inch by 6 foot lathe. What would be the proper machineing procedure to make a good straight platter? Right now the lathe is not delivered yet and i have no tooling.
thanks
Ed |
What is you machining experience? It takes a lot of time to learn how to machine anything correctly (correctly is the keyword here). There are many people who are "machinist-hobbyists" and have no training or expertise at all and learn on the fly.
You need to know:
1) Proper speeds and feeds for the material being machined.
2) Methods of fixturing. (to hold the workpiece) Do you know how to cut softjaws? Do you know what a faceplate is?
3) Proper cutting tool geometry.
4) Setup of workpiece to complete the job effectively.
These are minimum requirements. You also must have a "feel for the material" you are cutting. This is something you learn only by cutting it. Acrylic will chip if you're not careful.
You must also be able to design and machine the proper tooling to hold the acrylic. It must be finished correctly or you'll end up with a wobbly mess.
You'll have to buy a lot of single point cutting tools, measuring equipment, and also know how to use them.
Is this lathe big enough to turn a 12" platter? Does it have a 13" swing or is that the distance between the gap? You may have to use a faceplate to make a platter, or it will have to be able to hold a massive chuck. I use a 20" four jaw chuck on my lathe which is too big for your machine. Sorry about the rant but I've been a machinist for over 30 years and I learn things almost on a daily basis. ;) |
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| fortytwo |
Here is my situation.
I have allways like turning and took a class years ago in high school. I am currently reading south bends how to run a lathe. And i am planning on taking a "hobbyist machining class 101" at the local tech school when fall rolls around. The lathe i am buying has a 13 inch swing and 6 foot bead it is an older south bend. I figured i will have to use either a face plate and or a custom made mandral to turn on centers. I was justy wondering the best procedure to go about making a platter, i will have to get the skiils and tooling before i try.
thanks please feel free to msg me if this is getting off topic (or i can start a new thread).
thnks
Ed |
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| Nanook |
here's a new wrinkle.
I may have stumbled across an existing high end turntable manufacturer that is showing some interest in providing the bearing and platter, rather than have it done by an industrial machinist's shop and put together by a less than audiophile type company that has little to no experience with high end turntables.
Everything I designed into my bearing is already part of their design, except the dimensions would be altered to fit my design. Generally I'd say, let's wait, but with this manufacturer there simply is no need.
Some have asked a few questions. So here's a summary:
- the bearing is an inverted type, requiring no oiling, as sintered bushings and a ceramic ball and wear plate are incorporated
- the platter is 43 mm thick, made of acrylic, clear. Unpolished unless the manufacturer will offer it for free or a very low cost. Personally I like the "frosted", unpolished look.
- the bearing/platter are designed to work together, but some may want to use a platter, or a bearing that they have already procured. This should not be a problem, but obviously the end user is responsible for altering whichever item to allow this to happen
- This is not design by committee as noted earlier. I will take a little poetic license regarding design., and finish. If no option or too expensive, then the "frosted" look will happen by default
I must say this is /has been a convoluted process that I have not been particularly happy with due to the suppliers contacted earlier. I do have great confidence if this last high end maker decides to take this project on. I think the results would be better than otherwise possible, so I'm crossing my fingers (and toes too!).
In the event this doesn't work out, I haven't slammed the door on the original supplier. If the original supplier ends up being the choice, then definitely there will be a wait until a prototype is delivered.
For those wanting a drawing or a picture, I'll take a couple of the original platter (modified to work with a direct drive type bearing). I will also post a picture of the bearing design. |
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| Vil |
Very interesting and thanks for your work Nanook . I found one item on ebay , maybe it can be option for us too ? look to No 260197098215 .
Vil |
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| neil_kaye |
| $100 on the ebay item!!! Definitely something to think about. Perhaps the manufacturer / seller could modify their platter to accept Nanook's bearing and while they are at it, get rid of the tacky strobe markings. On top of everything else the platter is also clear |
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| mantisory |
| looks decent...i wonder if the bearing is one of any quality. |
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| shallbehealed |
If the seller is actually diy hifi supply, then the platter and bearing are probably from the bix turntable.
Cursory examination shows quite a few similarities between the two as well. |
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