| Any interest in an acrylic platter group buy, and a bearing? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Vinyl-Addict |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vil
Very interesting and thanks for your work Nanook . I found one item on ebay , maybe it can be option for us too ? look to No 260197098215 .
Vil |
It really depends on the level of quality you're looking for. If you want a well made platter that will rotate without runout or wobble it must be machined on all surfaces. Looking at that photo I can't tell if it has been polished after machining of just left uncut. If it is indeed uncut, it will definitely wobble on every rotation.
It doesn't make sense having to modify it because you risk damaging it during the modification process and the chances of getting perfect concentricity are pretty slim (result means excessive runout with balancing issues), unless you have machining skills and a lathe or mill to do the job correctly. You can't just drill the hole to a larger size for the bearing if you want a good fit. |
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| neil_kaye |
thanks for the clarification vinyl-addict.
I will stick with Nanook and what ever he comes up with |
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| Nanook |
I can say that if the motor pod that I purchased via the Maxon motor group buy is an indication of the Bix products, I'm not sure I'd go with any of it Apparently diy hifi supplied the motor pods and covers.
I have perhaps the most expensive, terrible looking ashtray in the history of the world (and I don't even smoke). I know I won't be using it. It is missing some set screws as well. And they wanted another $50 or so for the top plate. Please this is not a dig at Algar_emi and the Maxon motor Group Buy. I must say that I am a little disappointed in what I ended up with for $286 landed. The pulley, and motor are very good. The motor pod is the problem. I'll most likely keep the motor pod as an "experimenters' motor enclosure", spend some more money, have a top plate made for it, and find some set screws. And then get my own motor pod made.
I know the Bix table has received some good reviews and I cannot argue against it, if that is what you want. Hey, the whole table can be had for around $1000 landed in North America (without tonearm). The strobe marks are good to have , but are a little on the fugly side. Again perhaps my taste in cleaner looking designs is overtaking me, but I like the sleeker concept of "form follows function" as illustrated by Shaker, Craftsman and mid-century modern (Eames etc) designs. As indicated earlier, I love the way the Roksan Xerkses table looks. Plain. Simple. Straightforward.
just click on turntables and have a look at it.Roksan's home page
The bearing topology is perhaps the biggest variance. To my knowledge, the Bix bearing is a typical well type bearing. My design is an inverted design using the balanced mass approach as per Verdier, and of similar quality to Teres. The use of a Teflon /ceramic, or ceramic/ceramic ball and wearplate are a couple of others. It is being over-built in the event some may want to mass load their platters.
a note about platters: The platters need to be milled on both sides, prior to machining. That way we end up with a "trued" plate to start with (as Vinyl-Addict points out correctly). I can tell you that if I get the wordthat the existing high-end maker agrees to provide us with the bearings and platters, you will be getting a platter and bearing that is part of a $5000 turntable in your diy project. Until finalized, I simply cannot say much more.
I do have a sketch of the bearing design, and how the platter fits, as well as a few photos of the platter from the first prototype commercial turntable using a modified direct drive well type bearing. I just need to find out where to post them or shrink them small enough to attach to my posts.
newsflash:
it appears that diy hifi is getting out of the turntable business, and Triode Systems indicates that it is no longer available. For those that are interested.
stew |
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| Vil |
another great post Nanook ,
I never had any intend to dimish your endeavour (well I hope my english is Ok) . Now its pretty clear what is our target . I really wanna spend more but wanna get GOOD PRODUCT . Life is too short for sh...t .
Vil |
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| Nanook |
| I just edited my last post. Appears that diy hifi is getting out of the turntable business. |
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| Vil |
Nanook ,
so just please keep it going . We are with you ...
Vil |
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| Nanook |
please have a look.
The platter is similar to what we most likely end up with. The bearing will be completely different (see the Teflon tape needed to take up the machined "slop"?).
The sketch is of the assembled inverted bearing and platter, and an exploded view showing parts,
any comments are welcome.
stew |
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| neil_kaye |
| can the spindle be extended and threaded in the final version so that "clamps" can be used to hold the vinyl to the platter? |
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| Nanook |
on everyone else here. I like the idea of a reflex style clamp that can grab hold of a smooth spindle. But that's only my opinion. If a threaded type, whose standard do we use? English or metric threads? Or do we use the magic "310 gram" mass type clamp? (someone pointed this out to me, it seems most mass style "clamps" are 310 grams, who'd a figured....).
Neil, for now we'll leave it pretty much alone until we verify which company will be making the platters and the bearings. Then ask them for options if possible. It is important to stay focussed on the big picture, I view clamp style as an afterthought to platter and bearing design (but an important afterthought).
Any comments on the drawing?
stew |
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| Ed LaFontaine |
In the photo showing the platter, is there a sleeve installed into the acrylic into which the brass is inserted?
Looks good. |
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| Nanook |
Ed,
the brass is inserted into the platter. In this case it wa to modify the bearing and to allow us to salvage the platter. The original bearing was made of aluminum, and loose balls. It was terrible. I think I threw it away.
Hopefully bty Tuesday I'll have a response from the "high end" manufacturer and will make a determination on which direction to go based on cost, and turnar=oubd time. If this is the option, there is no need to wait and see---we should just all "buck up" and get it all coming. There may be a reduction to 40 mm thickness on the platter, to allow milling of the platter faces. Still crossing my fingers on this one as I think the best possible scenario for the diy GB and the commercial venture.
High quality=no headaches :)
stew |
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| Nanook |
so we did get some information back from the "high end" manufacturer. They will gladly sell to us. Great. Now all I have to do is get 80 more folks to take the rest of the lot that they want to sell to us for their minimum order. If it can be worked out, it may still happen , but it is looking a little disheartening. The price is increased too, about 25% over the original quote from the original maker, it's just having to take 100 platter/bearing assemblies is on the long side for me, and even the commercial project to deal with.
so still plodding along.
stew |
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| Nanook |
so we did get some information back from the "high end" manufacturer. They will gladly sell to us platters and bearings. I think we should go for this. The cost is slightly increased to $500. We will order once we get 20 interested GB parties. 30 would be preferred.Pretty much the same as the original idea but with a known high quality platter and bearing, needing no prototypes for approval.
About 4-6 weeks out from the time of order. So all interested parties should get their Paypal accounts lined up.
No split on the bearing /platter split cost, and generally I wouldn't want to split the pairs, but I think those that were interested in the separates were pretty much similarly numbered.I'm "guessing 45% for platter, 55% for the bearing. I should find out within a day
Ideas about how long to leave the GB open? A week?
I'll also post my Paypal account information later tonight. Remember, shipping is the end user's responsibility and shipped from T1H 4V7, Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. Approximately 13-15 pounds packaged. Approximately 16" X 16" X 6" to be on the safe side for shipping estimates.
stew |
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| neil_kaye |
| Since this is from a high end manufacturer is there an option to purchase the platter with a polished finish? |
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| Nanook |
As far as I understand there is only one option, the way they make em. I'll double check, but that generally is the labour intensive (expensive) part of acrylic platters. They will supply as they make. So if polished is what you want , you may end up polishing it yourself (I have never seen a polished platter from this maker on even their most expensive table).
Thankfully polishing is time consuming but not difficult.
Just a reminder , payment is required prior to being ordered, so please advance payment as soon as you make your decision. Regardless of decision, please let me know. Thanks
I'll check with Paypal to see if the allow temporary accounts for things like this group buy.
stew |
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| DaveM |
A question about the bearing. Is there a max suggested platter weight for this bearing? I was just pondering a 310 gram weight in combination with my intended mass loaded 6" delrin platter.
Dave |
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| nameci |
Nanook,
What is the exact details of the platter(dimension, thickness, etc) and the bearing(what kind? inverted bearing, standard bearing, etc? and the spindle details?)
I'm interested in both but w/o details, it is very hard to decide. |
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| 1001meier |
Hi Nanook,
I agree with the previous post by nameci, a few more details on the dimensions of the platter etc. would be good and if possible pictures of the prototype?
thanks anyway for your efforts! |
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| Ed LaFontaine |
Nanook,
As you are counting those interested, please remove my name from consideration. I must do this for financial reasons. I wish you the best! There are going to be many fine tables that result from your efforts. I'll continue watching... |
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| Nanook |
ok here goes:- the platter is 40 mm thick, unpolished acrylic, clear with label recess
- the bearing is essentially the same as my previously posted rendering: an inverted bearing, ceramic ball and ceramic wear plate, sintered bronze bushing, lubricant free
- plus 310 grams will have little to no effect on the bearing
- the total mass of a platter will have an effect on all bearings, so I guess will it support a mass loaded platter? Depends on the total mass of the platter. Thankfully in this case, the wear plate and ceramic ball are replaceable, but the limiting factor is the ceramic ball and the thrust plate itself. I've never looked into the load capabilities of ceramic balls and thrust plates
- the spindle is as per current RIAA standards, 7.24 mm
- the bearing is machined within .1mm (approximately .004")
Most of these details were earlier in the thread.
As far as a 6" (152 mm)Delrin platter goes, DaveM you are on your own in making this bearing fit and work with a platter that thick. This bearing has been used with platters up to 80 mm. But as far as modifying it to work with something 110mm thicker, you will need to do some rework on the platter to make it work, I am sure. And I'm not sure that it will support a 24 pound platter. I know it will support a 16 pound platter though.
I hope that helps.
At this time I simply cannot tell you who the maker is, but I can tell you they also make bearings and platters (and even complete high end turntables for other brands that are very well-known in the audiophile community, including their own). I guarantee that you will not be disappointed in the platter or the bearing.
Ed, thanks for the update. Sorry that you won't be able to participate in this.
stew |
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| Spica |
Nanook
For those of us who don't catch on so fast (me), is the platter/bearing drilled/tapped or whatever, so that it's ready to use?
Also is the 4 thou' tolerance for the bearing correct? Is that tight enough without running with an oil film. I don't mean to question the quality, but not being a machinist I thought it would be good to know. |
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| Nanook |
regarding the bearing and platter ?
I can tell you that this bearing is being used on 2 other commercial products other than the maker's own, and the one that I am currently working on. One famous US turntable, one yet to be introduced Canadian turntable (and therefore not "known" at all).
So I believe I have answered pretty much all questions except the final dimensions of the the bearing, but it is in the same dimensional "league" as the one I designed.
I have avoided providing the bearing details, as more than one person wants to copy it (at least they admitted it to me), and it is not my bearing to allow to be copied. That's it. There is no conspiracy to keep any in the dark, other than to protect the manufacturer's intellectual property and allow me to have the opportunity for future business this maker.
Spica:
the bearing has a sintered bronze bushing in it, ad "Oilite". This means that something in the neighbourhood of 30% mass of the bushing is actually oil,as the bushing "sees" friction and heats, the oil seeps from the bushing, as it cools it is "sucked" back up by the bushing.
stew |
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| agent.5 |
| Are you collecting payment yet? |
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| Ed LaFontaine |
I think (Spica, correct me if I'm wrong) the question related to the mechanics of assembly: are there screws involved? a press fit?
What might "some assembly required" include?
HTH
edit: can't stay away from a good thread ;) |
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| kilowattski |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
I can say that if the motor pod that I purchased via the Maxon motor group buy is an indication of the Bix products, I'm not sure I'd go with any of it Apparently diy hifi supplied the motor pods and covers.
I have perhaps the most expensive, terrible looking ashtray in the history of the world (and I don't even smoke). I know I won't be using it. It is missing some set screws as well. And they wanted another $50 or so for the top plate. Please this is not a dig at Algar_emi and the Maxon motor Group Buy. I must say that I am a little disappointed in what I ended up with for $286 landed. The pulley, and motor are very good. The motor pod is the problem. I'll most likely keep the motor pod as an "experimenters' motor enclosure", spend some more money, have a top plate made for it, and find some set screws. And then get my own motor pod made.
I know the Bix table has received some good reviews and I cannot argue against it, if that is what you want. Hey, the whole table can be had for around $1000 landed in North America (without tonearm). The strobe marks are good to have , but are a little on the fugly side. Again perhaps my taste in cleaner looking designs is overtaking me, but I like the sleeker concept of "form follows function" as illustrated by Shaker, Craftsman and mid-century modern (Eames etc) designs. As indicated earlier, I love the way the Roksan Xerkses table looks. Plain. Simple. Straightforward.
just click on turntables and have a look at it.Roksan's home page
The bearing topology is perhaps the biggest variance. To my knowledge, the Bix bearing is a typical well type bearing. My design is an inverted design using the balanced mass approach as per Verdier, and of similar quality to Teres. The use of a Teflon /ceramic, or ceramic/ceramic ball and wearplate are a couple of others. It is being over-built in the event some may want to mass load their platters.
a note about platters: The platters need to be milled on both sides, prior to machining. That way we end up with a "trued" plate to start with (as Vinyl-Addict points out correctly). I can tell you that if I get the wordthat the existing high-end maker agrees to provide us with the bearings and platters, you will be getting a platter and bearing that is part of a $5000 turntable in your diy project. Until finalized, I simply cannot say much more.
I do have a sketch of the bearing design, and how the platter fits, as well as a few photos of the platter from the first prototype commercial turntable using a modified direct drive well type bearing. I just need to find out where to post them or shrink them small enough to attach to my posts.
newsflash:
it appears that diy hifi is getting out of the turntable business, and Triode Systems indicates that it is no longer available. For those that are interested.
stew |
What is wrong with the top plate? If you are going to criticize the top plate please tell the truth. The top plate was custom machined to fit a Bix pod from a drawing made by Sylvain. The plate was CNC machined from an aluminum billet to within .001 of the drawing. No one could decide on a finish so the were done ready to finish. The cost was $35/plate for a quantity of only 20. I defy you to find something machined to those tolerances for only 20 pieces. They were $35 each not $50. I mic'ed each one as they came off the CNC. So if you are going to criticize, do not lie and get your story straight. I guess, next time I will not be so quick to volunteer to help the DIY Audio community. I had many compliments from the participating members on the top plate. You are the only one who complained. There is always one ingrate in the crowd and that is you. By the way, I did the job at no profit. As a matter of fact I lost a couple of bucks running prototypes to make sure they were exactly to the drawing as I don't do this for a living. Whats even more funny is that you were one of the two last hold outs to pay on the group buy. |
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| igrant |
| quote: | Originally posted by kilowattski
What is wrong with the top plate? If you are going to criticize the top plate please tell the truth. The top plate was custom machined to fit a Bix pod from a drawing made by Sylvain. The plate was CNC machined from an aluminum billet to within .001 of the drawing. No one could decide on a finish so the were done ready to finish. The cost was $35/plate for a quantity of only 20. I defy you to find something machined to those tolerances for only 20 pieces. They were $35 each not $50. I mic'ed each one as they came off the CNC. So if you are going to criticize, do not lie and get your story straight. I guess, next time I will not be so quick to volunteer to help the DIY Audio community. I had many compliments from the participating members on the top plate. You are the only one who complained. There is always one ingrate in the crowd and that is you. By the way, I did the job at no profit. As a matter of fact I lost a couple of bucks running prototypes to make sure they were exactly to the drawing as I don't do this for a living. Whats even more funny is that you were one of the two last hold outs to pay on the group buy. |
Don't see where Nanook criticized the mentioned platter. |
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| kilowattski |
| quote: | Originally posted by igrant
Don't see where Nanook criticized the mentioned platter. |
| quote: | | I have perhaps the most expensive, terrible looking ashtray in the history of the world (and I don't even smoke). I know I won't be using it. It is missing some set screws as well. And they wanted another $50 or so for the top plate. Please this is not a dig at Algar_emi and the Maxon motor Group Buy. I must say that I am a little disappointed in what I ended up with for $286 landed. The pulley, and motor are very good. The motor pod is the problem. I'll most likely keep the motor pod as an "experimenters' motor enclosure", spend some more money, have a top plate made for it, and find some set screws. And then get my own motor pod made. |
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| Nanook |
I obviously hit a sore spot with you. For that I am sorry.
I did not get a top plate, and thus was making a comment regarding the BIX motor pod. I think for the money perhaps you could have made the whole pod, and I am sure it would have been better. And sorry, the "$50" was off the top of my head, in terms of a number.
And don't take any of this too personally as it was not intended to be insulting to you or Algar_emi at all, in any way, shape or form.
If you want to further grieve this please email me. But please accept my apology to both you and Algar_emi. I've had numerous emails back and forth with Sylvain, and certainly have no gripes with him or you.
stew |
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| DaveM |
| I think that the 3mm max size is too small for turntable use. Good idea though. There is always the sapphire bearing. I know those are available in usable sizes. |
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| kilowattski |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
I obviously hit a sore spot with you. For that I am sorry.
I did not get a top plate, and thus was making a comment regarding the BIX motor pod. I think for the money perhaps you could have made the whole pod, and I am sure it would have been better. And sorry, the "$50" was off the top of my head, in terms of a number.
And don't take any of this too personally as it was not intended to be insulting to you or Algar_emi at all, in any way, shape or form.
If you want to further grieve this please email me. But please accept my apology to both you and Algar_emi. I've had numerous emails back and forth with Sylvain, and certainly have no gripes with him or you.
stew |
I accept your apology but common sense says that some things are best not discussed on a public forum. |
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| Nanook |
Payment for the platters and bearings can be sent to this Paypal account:
nellsk@hotmail.com
I'm putting an arbitrary amount of $500 for the platter and the bearing as the price. At this time no splits, so one of each is required. Splitting sets up now , considering the drop off, is simply not reasonable. I'll leave it open for a week.
In the event that "something happens" with the supplier all moneys will be returned.
stew |
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| nameci |
Nanook,
I will pass on this one.
I have taken different route, decided to restore old idle drive turntable, instead of building a new one. |
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| Nanook |
| nameci thanks for the indication. I guess I may pass on this one too, based on the runaway success of all those interested... |
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| Spica |
| Nanook, are you sure about killing this. It's been less than 24 hours since you confirmed price and payment details |
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| Nanook |
from "everybody" wanting a platter and bearing (at least 25 folks said "yah, I'm interested" to nobody actually making comment other than to say "not interested", "too busy", blah, blah, blah....). Legitimately some may need to withdraw, and I completely understand. I actually respect those that have and that have indicated that to me, either through the forum or privately. Above all else I appreciate candid honesty. And it's OK if someone were to outright state that they do not have confidence in me or the design , etc. I can live with that. Who on these forums knows me personally? Maybe a handful and perhaps only three or four well enough to make "character references".
Perhaps it is more a statement about me , rather than the platters/bearings. Is it a matter of trust? Why would I spend what has amounted to something in the neighbourhood of 50 hours plus if that was the case? And what would have led any to believe that my intentions are anything but genuine? I'm completely out of answers or ideas.Those that had contacted me, will receive an email if anything ever comes of this. It's not really "canceled", just if no one wants them, at what I consider to be an excellent cost, then ? And how long do I drag this thread on for?
Regarding the exact specifications, I cannot provide the name of the actual maker of the platters and bearings because they do not want to be identified, and I would like to honor their wishes. And the dimensions are almost exactly as per I originally suggested for an inverted bearing type, but had yet to be verified. Minor detail changes would have occurred, but nothing significant. And the bearings and platters would have been essentially unchanged from a couple of different $5000 (without tonearms) turntables.
I guess I just don't get it. And hence my new "blank " avitar
I do feel obligated to provide those that do order with what they have ordered, regardless of how that will be facilitated. Or return any payments to their providers in the event that there is no chance of fulfilling their orders.
stew |
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| agent.5 |
| I am sorry, as I am really confused. Is the group buy still on or not? Should we still send payment? If so, when is the deadline for hitting the submit button? |
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| Nanook |
for now it is still on. Send payment via Paypal. nellsk at hotmail.com is my Paypal account. (please replace "at" with "@", I just couldn't get the BB software to not have my Paypal account show up as an email addy )
I've been "venting" a bit at what I perceive as a lack of response. When I finally got something going. 2 responses in a day or so is not what I would call a great result.
Nothing will "happen" until at least a week and then, based on the responses and commitments made, a decision will be made. In the event that "nothing" happens for the GB , your payment will be sent back in full, or an alternate will be arranged (at your choice).
As I am a new audio seller (of any sort on the internet) and writer (I review for Affordable$$Audio ), I simply cannot afford a single negative comment regarding ethics. 3 or 4 moderators know me personally as well. I take your trust in me seriously |
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| kropf |
I need to see more detailed specifications on the platter/bearing purchase. The details presented are far too sketchy to make an informed decision. Also, this is a DIY project, for which we will all presumably have to build plinths, etc. It would make more sense to provide us with dimensioned drawings of the parts than to require us each to measure the components.
Specifically, I need to see flatness and parallelism (top/bottom face) specifications for the platter as well as concentricity of the central hole with the platter diameter. Also, surface finish RMS roughness.
The bearing is more critical. In an earlier post you said "the bearing is machined within .1mm (approximately .004")." Is this the outer diameter clearance between the bearing block and platter, or the clearance between the shaft and the sintered bronze bushing, or just the tolerance of the diameter. I would hope the shaft machining tolerance would be better than +/-0.010mm. That's pretty easy with a decent lathe and grinder. Admittedly, I am not too knowledgable about sintered bronze bearings, but 4 mils seems like a sloppy fit. Perhaps that is what is required.
Other bearing questions:
Shaft material and hardness (if case hardened)
Shaft surface finish
These are some of the specifications I would give to a shop if I were to source the project myself.
Thanks,
Jeremy |
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| Nanook |
Hope that helps...this is of the "existing bearing" from the existing high-end manufacturer. I will see if the maker will supply me with some basic parameters, and dimensions and material characteristics--although they will not release what they consider to be their intellectual property. Dimensionally similar to the bearing I designed, but not exact.
Please look at post #107 for details on the bearing and platter I designed.
stew |
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| agent.5 |
| Payment sent. Anyone else? |
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| Nanook |
agent.5: For payment sent. No, nobody else.
All, please read:
I did have a very good email exchange with Arjen , suggesting a couple of things. He voiced a few concerns, on a number of issues. Having not asked him if I could poet his email, I will not until I get word from him that he will allow it.
I however post my response to him in it's entirety (the points he brings up are pretty obvious based on my response to him:
thanks for your thoughtful and sincere (I believe) email. Your observations regarding the GB are accurate, and I appreciate your candor.
Now some specific points in reply to your's and some background history:
* "rather high" cost---YES, but no when you consider the options
* The conclusion of one day is something closer to two weeks. Any that have contacted me directly, that have shown what I consider to be a genuine interest will be looked after, regardless of the cost to me
* I'm not an "expert" but I've been involved in audio long enough and I do have a good understanding of all the principles involved. My education is in physics.
* Initially I got involved in making improvements to an existing commercial turntable for Grant Fidelity (please see my signature on diyAudio)
* That product has what I might consider the "appearance " of a good piece, although when viewed in comparison to other high end tables, is let down by the "finishing" (or what the manufacturer believes is finishing. I believe it should bee in the "beginning"...), the bearing and the tonearm specifically, and a visual design that mimics suspended tables, when it is not. The fit and finish of what is there is very good, and after modifying one of the turntables with a bearing from an old Sony DD turntable, and changing the arm from the stock one to a Linn Akito ll, it was/is apparent that the bearing is the weak link. The "modded" turntable is easily in the same league as my much more expensive Oracle Alex Mkll/SME 309 mag combination. Not the same, but definitely in the same league.
* Currently I have 2 of these tables in pieces in my office. I wouldn't begin to suggest what these tables are "worth" (not much), but can tell you they are not $3000 tables at any level, but I have seen the exact same table with a factory arm ranging in price from USD $1800-$3300 (although I am Canadian it seems the "international" currency of trade is the much over valued American dollar...Our "loonie", a CAD$ 1 coin trades at USD $.98 )
* After all the effort trying to make an existing turntable better, I realized that the diy enthusiast has essentially no options for a kit or pieces, and often would run into the exact same problems as I was having. Scheu is virtually non-existent here. I don't even know if they still offer kits. The "BIX" kit from Hong Kong had received some decent reviews, then some terrible ones, and has stopped selling turntables. Teres stopped with platter and bearing kits, but recently started back up at USD $1400+ for the bearing and platter. I then thought of offering the fruits of my labour to many that would need these pieces , at a very reasonable cost (at least 20% off of what I might consider a reasonable amount). it result in a couple of things: provide many diyAudio folks--particularly those that purchased the Maxxon motor GB , with an excellent platter and bearing ; allow me to contact some manufactures/makers to get the pieces made for a reasonable cost based on some minimum quantity.
* The original manufacturer had no interest in providing me with parts for a GB. A second (and third) manufacturer were contacted. The second maker , already a manufacturer of high-end, well reviewed and reasonably priced turntables, provided a quote. They had asked not to be identified as a possible source. It is their bearing that is so "secretive" in description. The second maker was provided with my original design, but suggested that it was so close in concept and specification to their own design (which has been around for a number of years) that it made no sense to do something custom. I agree.The original platter and bearing design (my original) have definite specifications, but due to my involvement with the commercial design I could not provide that information , other than basic dimensions. Here's the crux---- they required a commitment (read that as a prepaid order) for 100 pairs of platters and bearings, without me ever seeing one in the flesh--but based on review of their existing tables would be excellent. Or keep looking. Had I received serious interest in the GB , and prepayment for the platters and bearings, I would have advanced that route. Due to the lack of commitment, I simply cannot afford to swing $50,000 in platters and bearings on my own. The proposed cost to the GB purchasers would have been as high as $500-$525
* That leaves the original maker , who finally has made a quote, and I am expecting to see a prototype soon. The proposed cost of this option is something like CAD $400-$450 (no final pricing but based on the cost and "guestimate" on freight to me)
* and I do know I have "vented" a little on the thread. I do have some others that may be a little less emotional regrading this project to rely on. If my patience wears any thinner I will be asking for help.
Again Arjen, thanks for the thoughtful email. I hope I have answered some of your concerns. I am endvouring to alleviate all ears and concerns shortly.
So folks, I haven't really given up. I am just slightly frustrated. I will ask Ian Grant of Grant Fidelity to comment if I feel I am ill equipped to provide you with a solid answer. But please do not create a deluge of emails to him regarding this. He does monitor this thread, and if questions are posted here he will try to answer any as far as his end of this project goes.
My intention has never been to offend any, or avoid "proper" answers but I have been limited in my ability to provide much of the information based on Ian's manufacturing partners and his need for a better product.
stew |
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| mantisory |
Stew,
I feel bad because I had indicated that I would be interested in the platter/bearing and have decided to back out, but I think that your email shows precisely the problem: lack of details from the 'secret' supplier, and sketchy (at best) details from the other manufacturers you had talked to. The unknown supplier could, for all we know, be offering up their rejects? What recourse would we have? What guarantees are there in this kind of venture? none that i know of...
None of the information you have supplied regarding any of the proposed suppliers has inspired any confidence, for me at least. I realize that this is not your fault but (for me) it remains as the main problem.
There was some (rather excited/defensive/objectionable) discussion over the bix offerings on ebay earlier in the thread, but with that offering, at least we know the cost, and exactly where we will end up, given that it was a well known offering.
So in the end, I think that it may have been better if you could have sourced what was needed from a local machine shop or something. At least then all the details, costs, etc, would be known up front, and more importantly the manufacturer would be known as well...
just my thoughts.
b |
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| Nanook |
was not the end result for any that I had hoped for. You need not apologize. All I can say, as I posted in my last post(a rsponse to Arjen who had emailed me directly) is that a lot of all this is out of my direct control. A local machine shop could have provided me with a quote, that they would be willing to honour, and a time-line for delivery. This has gone from a 2-3 week time-line to something near 2 months. I had already sourced another manufacturer when Ian's folks agreed to do the platters and bearings..and I thought we should give them a chance.
Knowing what I know now, the use of a local shop is the path that would have provided the least resistance, a result that would be easy to do QC on, and seek guidance from the machine shop. This would have been taken care of weeks ago had this been the path. For that I am sorry to all.
Ian Grant (Grant Fidelity) is the channel that has been used to access the manufacturers, I have asked him to chime in any time. He is at least as frustrated about the suppliers as I am.
Regarding the Bix table, I made no negative results per say, but rather noted that diy HiFi is no longer providing the Bix kits, and was getting out of stock of them, and any and all pieces they had left (at least that is the appearance).
When I finally end up with a platter and a bearing, I will post here. Also if any provide money to my Paypal account, if no platters an bearings are forthcoming, an alternative will be provided (assuming approval from the parties involved) or a complete refund, as determined by those that had paid into Paypal on an individual basis.
stew |
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| leadbelly |
| Don't kill yourself, Stew. I think you are going to find that any group buy with a price tag in the $400-500 range is gonna have a huge buyer drop out, no matter who is at the helm, so don't sweat it personally. |
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| sklimek |
Hi Stew, I'm still hangin' on, 4-600 bucks is a lot of cash, no doubt, but in retrospect I just can't see how a platter + bearing of high quality can be any less than. I certinly to not have the know how to order it on my own. So, I'm hangin and seeing what you can come up with.
What a test for you though, it is appreciated!
Stan
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| igrant |
Hi all DIYers thinking about Stew's (Nanook) offering.
It was with my ok that Stew started this offering based on a turntable design Grant Fidelity has been working on for about a year now to make into something I'd put our name on. It's a good looker with great sound potential and is fondly known as the 'damn GT-455' internally at GF.
Our factory in China on the GT-455 has all the ability and factory gear to make a high quality, high-end turntable with proper guidance. The platter and plinths are fine, the bearing design was not right from day one, the tonearm was always a work in progress and the motor had issues due to the bearing. The factory has now managed to sell this with our improvements to others who are selling what GF believes to be 'not ready for market' for many thousands of dollars, our target price for the turntable was under 1.5k loaded.
I've gotten to know Stew since he signed up to be a GF demostrator and we have similar interests in 'frugalphile' (Dave Dlugos term) and we chatted a lot about Stew's $2.19 tonearm :) which sounds great.
Thats when we decided to let Stew loose on making the GT-455 into a contender, which evolved into the concept of Stew starting up the GF DIY division. We have lots of access to lots of DIY gear.
About halfway into this we approached a major Turntable manufacturer and they are excited about working with GF to rebrand their products for North America and are more than willing to provide us with their platter and bearing (motor and tonearms as well), but only in 100 quantity batches. So we need a lot of 'paid' interest to go in this direction. Minimum 20, 30 prefered.
Our original factory has sent out 2 new prototypes of the bearing (and platter, but as stated they are fine) and we then get to see Stew's new design in action. We can go with these in smaller quantities if they test out as expected.
I hope this clears up a few things. Stew, GF and our factories have put a lot of time into this and we appreciate your patience with us as we sort out our end. Stew will be heading up our DIY division.
Happy to answer any DIY questions here.
Ian |
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| Nanook |
First, to Arjen: sorry for not waiting for you to get back to me before posting my reference to you in the last couple of posts.
Many have provided moral support. I completely appreciate that. And if it has seemed that I have picked on anyone specifically, my intention has never been to cause any to feel the need to be defensive. If I have offended any, please accept my apologies..
I've taken a couple of days off working on the turntable in any way shape or form, I needed the break. But I have been working on a pair of loudspeakers for a diy article in Affordable$$Audio, a less expensive take on Linkwitz's "Orion" build. Open baffle mid-bass + , and an aperiodic down-firing sub-woofer with 250 watts each (a stereo pair). Total cash outlay, sub CAD$1000, for parts, wood, amps drivers, etc. A truly fullrange speaker system. Thankfully, everything can be turned down. I think we'll try my old (but new ) Altec 409-8D speakers in there for the OB type. (I'll post some pix if anyone is interested)
To all, it really is just my frustration that is getting in the way, caused from 2 different directions, the downstream (end user-purchaser's), and upstream (the manufacturer's end). It seems to me this should just be a straight forward purchase/exercise. I take responsibility for some of the shortcomings in this GB and lack of communication, as my ignorance to the realities of manufacturer's willingness to work with their clients may have pushed me to make un-realistic timelines.
Ian's confidence in me is partially based in what he has seen what I can do with very little money, a pair of pliers and a tube cutter. And my $2.19 tonearm is only an example. Good sounding re-plinths and some turntable mods done on the fly on his kitchen counter may be another (kind of like P10's on the fly, "hand me my knife I'll fix those drivers for ya" escapades at various audio get togethers). I thoroughly do understand the design requirements for analog systems, and have been into vinyl for 20 years +, selling, modifying and making mechanical analog bits (as crude as some may seem , as I have no machining capability myself). I am in no way what I might consider an electronics guy, but can do it in a pinch.
And what he has stated is true regarding "the turntable", I've seen 3-4 "other "turntables selling in the $2000-$3300 range of essentially the same turntable (from the same maker) that we have, with our improvements made to them and "in the market" already. And in many folk's estimation it was/is not ready for prime time (at least from our perspective). So if I have a little trepidation about releasing too much information, it is because of this, and one of the manufacturer's wishing not to be identified (the second supplier of high-end tables). that's it. No "ultra paranoia", but the reality of what has happened.
I'm also willing to forfeit that perhaps I have been a little to enthusiastic because to me the changes required and the ease of a better bearing seems, well, {I]simple[/I]. As soon as I get anything further to post regarding the bearings themselves, I'm going to stay a little scarce here. As always I will answer any emails sent directly to me.
stew |
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| av-trouvaille |
Hello Stew, others,
Stew, thanks for proceeding the way you did in the posts above. I do not have time to follow this thread daily. Our private conversation is of no further importance here; your answers speak for themselves.
For others: I was and will stay interested in this GB and have confidence in the approach of Stew and his companion regarding the quality of platter and bearing. My latent concern – and apparently I was not the only one - was that prospects for the GB really had a hard time to imagine what exact concrete product they could hope for and when it would be delivered. Diy’ers only buy hope untill they open the package, don’t they. My PM to Stew only shared the experience that this is a common pittfall in (starting) entrepreneurship and can be easily prevented.
Please keep this going, Arjen. |
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| Nanook |
I am told with some certainty by Ian that there are actually a couple of samples en route as I type this. Ian will get back to Calgary and send them along. I have some photos from the manufacturer, but will wait to post any until I actually receive the samples , and take my own photos and physical measurements. Then I need to put a table together and listen. Once I believe that the quality is there, I will post my results and an "ad hoc" review (but how can I be unbiased?).
Once this is verified, I will post the results. Ian can provide potential delivery dates, and all is back on.
I understand that the cost of $400-600 is a scary thing, sight unseen, and as pointed out, is quite a bit more than typical group buys. My hope is that those that are interested (still, if any) will find the results worth the wait.
The new avatar is a stealth modded Walther PPK, a la James Bond... |
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| Nanook |
I've decided to go it alone and not rely on anyone else for anything else. We got a couple more samples via Ian Grant, and the factory could not follow my explicit instructions, (including using the proper materials with ASTM , DIN and SAE material numbers.
They completely pooched one of platter/bearing assemblies to the point that it may not be able to be salvaged at all.
I had a great discussion with one of the folks at Immedia (Spiral Groove) who assured me that finding competent manufacturers is one of the biggest hastles in high-end audio (and I've learned pretty quick.)
The quality control can occur at a local level.
To go with he "high end" maker required an investment of $15k-$20k, which is something I personally can't swing.
I am still working on this, but doing it all on my own. I know Ian and Rachel have been frustrated regarding the factory's inability to follow the instruction.
I thought I would calm completely down on this until I had a complete solution for the platters and bearings in hand. As soon as I have something in hand I will post, both here and perhaps a new thread as well. |
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| Mark Kelly |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nanook
[ I've never looked into the load capabilities of ceramic balls and thrust plates
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I have.
The usual failure mode is cracking of the thrust pad just below the contact surface of the ball (or above if the bearing is inverted) as this is where the maximal shear stress arises. This maximal shear stress can be taken as approximately half the mean contact pressure (the load divided by the contact area).
Because ceramics are stiff the contact area is small so the mean contact pressure is high. This is after all why they are used - the small contact area reduces the friction.
The trouble is that ceramics usually don't have very good shear strength. In ductile materials (metals) the maximal shear stress allowable is roughly half the stress required to stretch* the material by 0.2%. Ceramics won't do this for the simple reason that they break long before they reach 0.2% stretch.
The rule of thumb seems to be that for ceramics the shear strength and the tensile strength will be roughly equal but ceramics have woeful tensile strength, often about 0.1% of their elastic modulus.
The net result is that a ductile material like steel can support a contact pressure which is about ten times as large as a ceramic material of equivalent stiffness. This is why you'll often see a ceramic ball and a steel thrust plate - the contact area will be slightly larger and the steel is much tougher so the maximal supported load will be very much greater.
*Technically 0.2% plastic yield. This used to confuse me because for steel the 0.2% yield point happens to be very close to 2% of the elastic modulus. |
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