| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrille
Anyone built this amp? Having problems finding the transistors...
Does the PSU have to be so big, I think it is over 0,5F/ch!
It looks like a very fine amplifier.
http://www.gmweb.btinternet.co.uk/monster31.htm |
It is a Class A amplifier.
Do you know how much idle Current it is?
It is also a Current feedback amplifier,(fb goes to emitter of input transistors)
and they are a little more demanding on Power Supply things/disturbance.
In this amplifier it is also not possible to decouple
the pre- and output power supply from eachother.
But you are right. It is a great amplifier!
Only 8 watts.
But those 8 watts will be of very high quality ;)
Like first 8 watts of a 100-200 watts normal class AB amp, maybe.
/halo |
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| P.Lacombe |
| quote: | In this amplifier it is also not possible to decouple
the pre- and output power supply from eachother
|
Halojoy
This is the reason why monstrous capacitors are needed.
This amplifier can give very superior sound quality, but is now very difficult to build, because of the very hard to find transistors. Substitutes are not possible without audible degradation of the sound quality.
Regards, Pierre Lacombe. |
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| Nelson Pass |
I don't think there's a conceptual reason you can't
substitute devices on this amplifier without degradation.
There was nothing particularly magic about these parts
and you might be able to find better in later chips. |
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| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
I don't think there's a conceptual reason you can't
substitute devices on this amplifier without degradation.
There was nothing particularly magic about these parts
and you might be able to find better in later chips. |
I agree with Nelson.
There are even better substitutes of transistors.
Not to mention low voltages high uF Electrolytic Caps.
And toroid trafos.
Regarding power supply to suit this amplifier,
there is a lot to find in Pass Sites and Forum.
This class A amplifier is a bit like some Pass Amplifiers
when it comes to what is needed in a pure and well filtered supply.
An alternative to big cap bank is
a cap-inductor-cap filter (CLC) that the Pass-builder-guys
sometimes uses and Nelson recommends.
A big selfmade air-inductor is a lot cheaper
then those big high quality electrolytes, like RIFA and those.
The good thing regarding the Caps to this amp is
the low voltage. 25 volts caps are half the price of 50 volts.
/halo :cool: ;) :cool: |
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| SvErD |
| quote: | Originally posted by P.Lacombe
This amplifier can give very superior sound quality, but is now very difficult to build, because of the very hard to find transistors. Substitutes are not possible without audible degradation of the sound quality. |
Here are some suggested replacement transistors
http://www.gmweb.btinternet.co.uk/hiragatrans.htm |
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| RobPhill33 |
| When substituting transistors is it imparative that the maximum current and voltage ratings are the same as the original? |
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| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by RobPhill33
When substituting transistors is it imparative that the maximum current and voltage ratings are the same as the original? |
The important is not that it is same,
but that the substitute can take and work well
at the current and the voltage that is in the circuit.
Of course if you have ratings same or higher than the original
it is never any problems.
But if you in a circuit with 24 max voltage,
substitute the original transistor, 45 max volt,
with a transistor with max 30 volt,
it is perfectly okay.
As the circuit only demands 24 volt.
There are other data that can be more important.
Ft= the speed of the transistor MHz
the noise and and the gain, hfe.
---------------------------------------
In Class A amplifier where a lot of current and heat is involved
there is also important how well the transistor
can cool itself down.
This is the data C/W.
It is related to the Max Power data.
It is good if C/W is as low (or lower) than the original
output transistor.
If it is higher you might need a bigger heatsink,
and heatsinks cost more money than a transistor
with good data.
And if C/W is too high there is a limit, where not even
the biggest heatsink will be enough.
---------------------------------------
The circuit sets the demands on the transistor.
The max data sets a limit for, IF transistor can do the job
without breakdown.
And secondly HOW WELL it will do the job.
/halo |
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| Nelson Pass |
Not usually. In this case, for example, the outputs
have much more voltage and current rating than
the amp will subject them to. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I think it is over 0,5F/ch! |
Make that > 1F/channel on the one I heard in Paris 15 years ago.
8W of pure class A....impressive thingie.:cool:
Cheers,;) |
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| massimo |
I'm old enough (unfortunately!) to perfectly remember that famous 8 W pure class A amplifier.
I still keep some original articles published on the magazine "L'Audiophile" around '83-'84.
I also remember that all the transistors were carefully choosen for their sound, not only for specs.
Probably you don't know that the preferred PS was using two large batteries (12 V / 45 A) bypassed by several big caps!
The original schematics came from a prototype made by a famous Japanese company (could be Accuphase, but I'm not 100% sure) and never launched on the market. The idea was to develop a SS amp that could compete with the famous tube WE 300 B in SE (that's why the output power was 8 W)
J.Hiraga simply "imported" that idea in Europe and wrote some articles introducing few mods and a beefy PS with car batteries and huge caps. A "C" core trafo was used to recharge them after few hrs.
P.S. Sorry, just read again the first article: the manufacuter that introduced the prototype was Stax and not Accuphase |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Probably you don't know that the preferred PS was using two large batteries (12 V / 45 A) bypassed by several big caps! |
Oh,yes...and I have the magazines under my bed...most of them anyway.
And they didn't like the battery PSU on its' own either...no,no, they bypassed all that lead.
Those were the days...guess I am getting old too.:rolleyes:
Ciao,;) |
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| jam |
Frank,
You mean that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.........like solid state ;)
Jam |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | You mean that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.........like solid state |
LOL.
Can I have my coockie and eat it too?
Sorry,pal.;) |
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| jam |
Frank,
Just doing my bit to make you see the light (glow)....more in jest really. :idea:
Jam
P.S. Most people stash old issues of Playboy under the bed.:D |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Just doing my bit to make you see the light (glow)....more in jest really. |
You're just pulling both my legs,aren't you?
Once you know a bit about electronics you can explore the field...
BTW,did you know Mr.Kaneda has produced some fine hybrid OTLs?
No kidding....;) |
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| grataku |
:att'n:
DISCLAIMER THIS IS MY HONEST OPINION THAT HAS ONLY TO DO WITH THE FACT I BUILT ALL THE AMPS I AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT.
I built both the Hiraga amps (Monstre and le classeA)and the AX and while the Hiraga do sound very nice the AX simply blow them out of the water.
I don't know if it's because of the balanced AX vs SE hiraga, the different trannies I used for the hiraga, the SANKEN 2sc2922/pnp? pair that are said to be the among the best bjt out there, the regulated PS of the hiraga vs the 1F pi filter in the AX.
I believe I used better components than were used on the original Hiraga, and I got a little bit harder time to get the 0 DC offset. As of right now it starts at 120 mV and goes to ~0 during the course of 1/2 hr.
I am just gonna throw it out there, you make whatever you want out of it. |
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| jam |
Frank,
Sorry, I could not resist. There seems to be a lack of humor in the forum these days.
I built the Monster a few years ago (many) and it was a great sounding amp, being a current feedack device we can convert it into a x-amp. ( See other thread) Maybe we could convince you to build one.
Jam |
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| jam |
Grataku.
I believe you but what about the Hiraga Monster-X?
Jam:Pirate: |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I believe I used better components than were used on the original Hiraga, and I got a little bit harder time to get the 0 DC offset. As of right now it starts at 120 mV and goes to ~0 during the course of 1/2 hr. |
Le Monstre wasn't born yesterday,was it?
I can only hope more modern designs surpass it hands down.
If not, I certainly stick to my trusty old tubes.:cool:
Ciao,;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Sorry, I could not resist. There seems to be a lack of humor in the forum these days. |
I fully agree there and I recall Grataku even started a thread asking what on earth was going on....I agree with him something has changed...may be it's just me.
| quote: | | Maybe we could convince you to build one. |
I think the 20 W " Le Classe A" was better.
Nice try though,;) |
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| jam |
Frank,
This will make you happy.
Jam;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Would you believe I could fill half a page telling you about the history of that little tube alone?
And I do mean the history of the one in your picture, not the generic 12AY7A...
So, you're telling me you know your tubes too?:cool:
Cheers,;) |
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| P.Lacombe |
I don't agree with Mr Pass : substitution of transistors is a very complex problem in the Monster, to day's transistors are not made with the same processes and exhibit different transfer characterisics, internal capacitances, phase lag and so on. As far as I know, internal Ccb variation vs collector voltage, and Rbb' are essential parameters.
Jean Hiraga has invested a considerable amount of time to tune up this amp, not only with measuring equipment, but also with ears and brain. Some particular choices results in a specific distortion cancellation, which can be totally ruined by substituing transistors. (The same occurs in valve amps).
I presume that the correct answer is to entirely redesign the whole amplifier with available transistors... This is (verbatim translation from french !) a monk's work !
Regards, Pierre Lacombe. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Jean Hiraga has invested a considerable amount of time to tune up this amp, not only with measuring equipment, but also with ears and brain. Some particular choices results in a specific distortion cancellation, which can be totally ruined by substituing transistors. |
It was already a big issue when the circuit was published and people wanted to build one.
Maybe there are better alternative transistors nowadays?
Cheers,;) |
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| Nelson Pass |
Well, I guess it's just too complicated an issue and
we'll just have to give up.
:mad: |
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| mlloyd1 |
... and given process improvements over the years in both passive and active components, it is also possible that one could make substitutions and result in an even better sounding amplifier.
Some brave soul with time on his/her hands will have to step forward. Preferably somone who has (or at least has access to) the original for comparative purposes.
I will probably get into tremendous amounts of trouble for saying this (someone has to pick up where jocko and H.H. left off :devily: ) - I would venture to guess that one might hear the effects of being limited to 8 watts long before hearing the effects of contributions of the second order (and higher order) characteristics and device parameters you've mentioned.
Now here is, unfortunately, where I have to admit I haven't built the amp, much less listened to it ;)
oh well,
mlloyd1
(who still secretly dreams about building that Pass Class A 20W thingie from 1977 with :eek: modern devices!)| quote: | Originally posted by P.Lacombe
... substitution of transistors is a very complex problem .... exhibit different transfer characterisics, internal capacitances, phase lag ....
Jean Hiraga has invested a considerable amount of time .... Some particular choices results... can be totally ruined by substituing transistors....
....
Regards, Pierre Lacombe |
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| jam |
It is not nice to question the Master!
Jam |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
In case anyone has scans of the original publications by "L'Audiophile" I'd be happy to assist in translation work.
As Pierre pointed out, this and most other circuits by this team depend heavily on certain parameters for sonic bliss.
Passive components, layout, wires everything was painstakingly thought out.
They were lightyears ahead of the commercial designs of those days and I still go through some of the articles for reference.
Let me know if I can help, I hold most of these publications anyway....I am a bit surprised by this nostalgia though.;)
Ciao,:cool: |
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| jam |
Frank,
I just picked a tube at random, I bet more appealing than the centerfolds in the Playboys' you have stashed under your bed.
I have built a few tube preamps 12AX7's and 6DJ8's, sounded good but I needed better bass.
Jam;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi Jam,
| quote: | | I have built a few tube preamps 12AX7's and 6DJ8's, sounded good but I needed better bass. |
Good for you.
Who stole the bass? Who stole the music?
There is no reason whatsoever for tubes to have worse bass performance.
Silly speakers do abound though...and I can still slam their *** off with tubes given a fair chance.
Maybe I can convince you to the tube area?;)
If you are prepared to take that route expect your electrity bill to be halved, your enjoyement of music to be doubled and be prepared to change your view of speakers too...
It's a philosophy,;) |
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| jam |
Frank,
I used to use transmission line subs that were flat to 17 Hz, just could not get the control I needed even with a large power supply. Midrange and highs were great though.
Why don' t you post your favourite tube preamp schematic and we could start a new thread and you might convince me to build one.:headshot:
It has to be balanced though.
Cheers,
Jam |
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| SvErD |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
In case anyone has scans of the original publications by "L'Audiophile" I'd be happy to assist in translation work.
As Pierre pointed out, this and most other circuits by this team depend heavily on certain parameters for sonic bliss.
Passive components, layout, wires everything was painstakingly thought out.
They were lightyears ahead of the commercial designs of those days and I still go through some of the articles for reference.
Let me know if I can help, I hold most of these publications anyway....I am a bit surprised by this nostalgia though.;)
Ciao,:cool: |
Thanks Frank, I do have the original transistors, but it would be nice to know if there were some hidden gold nuggets in the orignal articles. They are here: http://www.gmweb.btinternet.co.uk/hiraga.htm#index |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
And they didn't like the battery PSU on its' own either...no,no, they bypassed all that lead. |
Hmmmm. That's not how I read the article. If you're referring to the one originally posted at the top of the thread.
The way I read it, they were using all that power supply capacitance to try and deal with the ripple caused by the AC supply. To wit:
<i><b>It can be very clearly seen, starting at 50Hz, that when one decreases the fre_quency, the charge frequency, which is obviously that of the mains, is not sufficiently fast to feed the power supply filter capacitors. One would think that a capacitance of half a Farad, or even 1 Farad, would be sufficient to alleviate this slowness, but this is not so, and a modulation signal is found on the power supply which, similar to a piece of gelatine, fluctuates according to the signal.</i></b>
He doesn't seem to realize that increasing the amount of capacitance increases the ripple current which just loads down the transformer even more.
It seems he prefers the battery-only option with regard to sonics, but prefers the AC supply with regard to practicality.
<i><b>Of course, in this solution, the power supply noise rises considerably, by 30 to 40 dB. However, in spite of this, the Monster remains an amplifier without rival, even if it loses in "luminosity" compared to its operation on batteries and without a mains supply.</i></b>
I mean, what is there to bypass across a battery anyway? It's pure DC and doesn't have any ripple voltage or higher frequency noise that you'd need to shunt to ground.
So what's there to bypass?
se |
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| SvErD |
| quote: | Originally posted by Steve Eddy
I mean, what is there to bypass across a battery anyway? It's pure DC and doesn't have any ripple voltage or higher frequency noise that you'd need to shunt to ground.
So what's there to bypass?
se |
A car battery has a quite high ESR so a cap will lower the impedance of the supply. Look at what the car-audio people does. |
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| UrSv |
| quote: | Originally posted by SvErD
A car battery has a quite high ESR so a cap will lower the impedance of the supply. Look at what the car-audio people does. |
The Monster did indeed use large amounts of caps even with battery. The largest set-up used a large amount of 68.000 uF caps but also a Gold-Cap style cap normally used for battery back-up in low power consumption gear. That cap was rated 0.5 F at 12 V but run at a slightly higher voltage (close to 13.5 V). I listened to them all when there was a Swedish company (Tesserakt) selling most of the variations. It was very nice playing on large Onkens, Dauphin horns and/or T5000 tweeters. Mated with the subject of another thread - the Kaneda La Solstice.
| quote: |
I mean, what is there to bypass across a battery anyway? It's pure DC and doesn't have any ripple voltage or higher frequency noise that you'd need to shunt to ground.
So what's there to bypass?
|
I have been reading for ages about the chemical process in batteries causing noise and that the high ESR makes a pure battery PSU slow and sluggish. I thought that was common knowledge. Maybe I was wrong. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by SvErD
A car battery has a quite high ESR so a cap will lower the impedance of the supply. |
Guess it depends what you consider "high." I'm currently using some 7Ah SLAs which have a rated internal impedance of a little over 20 milliohms. And the higher the capacity of the battery, the lower its internal impedance.
What's 20 milliohms when you consider the fact that people are building Gainclones with 10 times that much resistance tied to their outputs?
| quote: | | Look at what the car-audio people does. |
Car audio's a whole different ballgame. Car audio amplifiers use switchmode power supplies which are drawing current in pulses of typically between 50-100kHz (and we're just talking about the fundamental, not the harmonics).
The so-called "stiffening" capacitors are ostensibly intended to overcome the series inductance of the 12 volt lead running from the front of the car back to the trunk where the amplifiers are.
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by UrSv
I have been reading for ages about the chemical process in batteries causing noise... |
EVERYTHING causes noise. Every length of wire or conductor causes noise. Every resistor and capacitor causes noise. Even when there's no current flowing. Raise the temperature or the current and you get even more noise. Transistors cause noise. Vacuum tubes have gobs of noise.
You think AC power supplies are noise-free? Think again. And personally, I'll take the benign, random noise of a battery over the kind of noise that AC power supplies can produce any day.
| quote: | | ...and that the high ESR makes a pure battery PSU slow and sluggish. |
This whole "slow" and "sluggish" thing is one of those weird metaphysical misunderstandings that seem to crop up all too often.
The impedance of the power supply has nothing to do with the "speed" of the circuit it's powering. The "speed" of a circuit describes how quickly it can change from one state to another (slew rate for example). And that's determined by the circuit itself, not the power supply.
The impedance of the power supply manifests itself in two basic ways, neither of which has anything to do with the "speed" of the circuit.
The first is the voltage drop that results from the supply impedance. The higher the impedance, the greater the voltage drop and the lower your supply voltages which means that your circuit will clip a bit sooner than otherwise.
But if you need X amount of power, all you have to do is increase the power supply voltage. That's what Final had to do with their dry cell powered amplifier. Dry cells have a much higher internal impedance per cell than SLAs, so Final had to string up 18 1.5 volt D cells in series to get a rail voltage of 27 volts in order to achieve a 10 watt power rating.
The second is that the supply impedance adds to the amplifier's output impedance. And when you drive a load which doesn't have a constant, flat impedance (such as a loudspeaker), you'll get a less than flat frequency response.
But if low output impedance is of such importance, no one would touch a tube amplifier with a 10 foot pole seeing as they routinely have output impedances 100 times greater than the 20 milliamps of the SLAs I'm using.
So unless all one cares about are absolute objective specs rather than how the system sounds, I don't see what the big fuss is about.
se |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by UrSv
Gold-Cap style cap normally used for battery back-up in low power consumption gear. That cap was rated 0.5 F at 12 V but run at a slightly higher voltage (close to 13.5 V). |
Wasn't the use of a backup cap an obvious case of bad engineering? Nowadays there are types which can deliver current but in those days these type of caps were only good for CMOS backup. |
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| UrSv |
| quote: | Originally posted by peranders
Wasn't the use of a backup cap an obvious case of bad engineering? Nowadays there are types which can deliver current but in those days these type of caps were only good for CMOS backup. |
I think it was rather a way to impress but to some extent it did add a little capacity to the cap bank. To me it seemed like a bad idea at that time and it still does, especially with those caps meant to deliver low currents and running over spec. |
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| grataku |
| quote: | Originally posted by P.Lacombe
I don't agree with Mr Pass : substitution of transistors is a very complex problem in the Monster, to day's transistors are not made with the same processes and exhibit different transfer characterisics, internal capacitances, phase lag and so on. As far as I know, internal Ccb variation vs collector voltage, and Rbb' are essential parameters.
Jean Hiraga has invested a considerable amount of time to tune up this amp, not only with measuring equipment, but also with ears and brain. Some particular choices results in a specific distortion cancellation, which can be totally ruined by substituing transistors. (The same occurs in valve amps).
I presume that the correct answer is to entirely redesign the whole amplifier with available transistors... This is (verbatim translation from french !) a monk's work !
Regards, Pierre Lacombe. |
I think all the above is just ****. There are much better semis today than there where in the early 80s. It's much easier to get gain matched devices with pretty much any capacitance you wish. The design is not -that- complicated to justify such self indulgent claims. I believe in my version all these factors were considered. |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
I think all the above is just ****. |
Yeah, I kind of get the feeling it's just an attempt to maintain some sort of mystical aura about the amp and its designer.
And you know how touchy those French are about heathen Americans meddling with their cultural icons. Jerry Lewis notwithstanding. :)
se |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | And you know how touchy those French are about heathen Americans meddling with their cultural icons. Jerry Lewis notwithstanding. |
For the record the amp originates from Japan not France.
Quite likely the transistors can be replaced with modern ones.
Twenty years ago that wasn't all that simple though.
Cheers,;) |
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| Nelson Pass |
OK, I just can't stay away from this....
The problem as I see it is not that those parts might not have been the best for the design, particularly at the time, but we have to remember that there is a wide variation, around 50% or so, between transistors with the same numbers on them.
The implication of a specially complementary series of parts puts us in a subjective can of worms where we have to listen to all permutations of the available parts on our bench. I just can't accept that as good design.
Looking at the schematic, I think it's topology deserves more respect than "only a guy with especially good ears can build it, not you."
:drink: |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
Looking at the schematic, I think it's topology deserves more respect than "only a guy with especially good ears can build it, not you." |
Yeah, kind of silly how some things can be elevated to what amounts to cult religion complete with prophets and saviors.
Oh well. At least they're not out on the streets abducting people. :)
se |
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| P.Lacombe |
I think that because of the considerable advancement of the science, we are now able to manufacture better violins that Stradivarius ones :rolleyes:
Pierre Lacombe. |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | Yeah, I kind of get the feeling it's just an attempt to maintain some sort of mystical aura about the amp and its designer. |
| quote: | | And you know how touchy those French are about heathen Americans meddling with their cultural icons. Jerry Lewis notwithstanding. |
Le Monstre was and is an exceptional amp. Jean Hiraga spent a lot of time in finding a sonical balance with the choice of the transistors. It is not about technical properties of the components, he designed with only with the soundquality in mind.
In fact he studied every used component so extensively that I think others could have designed a whole amp in the same time. Some people I know that built the amp say it only sounded good with the prescribed types and not with any substitute. Not even the same type but the wrong colour ( for example higher Hfe ). They tried to built it with other components but results were disappointing. Even the PCB had a great influence on sound. Some thought a PCB with wider traces would give better results but that didn't work out. I remember that L'Audiophile in Paris sold the semiconductor sets for DIY purposes.
This amp had a great following of people in the Netherlands as well because of its very good sound and was built by many ( mostly without the batteries though ). The S/N ratio was extreme for that time.
So the mystique around this minimalist amp is not made up. The man really devoted his time to designing beautyful but tiny amps with a sophisticated character. The 8 Watts it produces are quality 8 Watts.
So it's a question of quality and not quantity. That may be hard to swallow for some.
To qualify this amp or its designhistory just by looking at a schematic without even having heard or seen it is unfair and unrealistic. But some people just want to believe that bigger is better ... ;) |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Le Monstre was and is an exceptional amp. Jean Hiraga spent a lot of time in finding a sonic balance with the choice of the transistors. It is not about technical properties of the components, he designed with only with the soundquality in mind. |
Except that "soundquality" is ultimately a subjective determination. What's being passed off here is the notion that Hiraga's particular subjective preferences are somehow the One True™ benchmark for "soundquality" by which all else is to be measured.
And that notion, in my opinion, is just plain absurd. And the notion that anyone who would dare consider building this amp with parts other than those specified being little more than infadels and blasphemers more absurd still.
se |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | What's being passed off here is the notion that Hiraga's particular subjective preferences are somehow the One True™ benchmark for "soundquality" by which all else is to be measured. |
Where can I read that ? Only Nelson can qualify for that ! :o |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Where can I read that ? |
In the posts which imply that the amp can't possibly be improved by substituting parts.
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Where can I read that ? Only Nelson can qualify for that ! :o |
Damn. How many times you gonna edit? That's at least your third. :)
se |
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| jean-paul |
The amp has it's character because of the used parts that were studied carefully. Rebuilding it with "better" parts must be possible but it will take a lot of time to give it it's neutral and musical soundcharacter. In it's time there were people that tried it but with unsatisfying results.
As P.Lacombe said: a monk's work.
What's wrong with editing my own posts ? Sometimes it takes some time to express myself or if I want to soften the tone of my post in the heat of the discussion. We don't speak english here you know and thus a painful mistake is made quickly. Maybe some better do the same, it is good to read your own post and to evaluate directly ;) Better for the athmosphere.
BTW It surprises me that some can't stand positive comment on a japanese-french designer they probably never heard of before and at the same time speak the same way about another designer of amps :confused: |
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| Nelson Pass |
Hiraga is a seminal designer of the minimalist persuasion.
He does not need added mystification, any more than I do.
If he were to speak for himself here, I'm certain there would be no argument.
By the way, don't go setting me up as a golden ear, even sarcastically. I'm a topologist by trade, with decent, but not spectacular ears.
:wiz: |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
If he were to speak for himself here, I'm certain there would be no argument. |
I kind of get that feeling too.
| quote: | | By the way, don't go setting me up as a golden ear, even sarcastically. I'm a topologist by trade, with decent, but not spectacular ears. |
Yes. Though you are in fact a guru, however reluctantly. Fortuately you're not of the megalomaniac, self-annointed variety (and before anyone jumps the gun, I'm not putting Hiraga in this category). You're about as humble as anyone could ask for and rather selfless in the way you allow yourself to be used as a conduit to help others realize their goals rather than attempting to dictate what everyone else's goals should be.
The best example of this is perhaps the Son of Zen, which came about largely from feedback from the original Zen project.
And perhaps that's why I don't recall ever seeing anyone cautioning others not to swap out any components because you'd worn your poor li'l ol' ears down to nubs tweaking and listening to get things juuuuuuuust right. :)
se |
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| Steve Eddy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
The amp has it's character because of the used parts that were studied carefully. Rebuilding it with "better" parts must be possible but it will take a lot of time to give it it's neutral and musical soundcharacter. In it's time there were people that tried it but with unsatisfying results. |
Studied carefully by a particular individual desiring a particular result, which is not necessarily the same result others may be looking for.
| quote: | | As P.Lacombe said: a monk's work. |
Monk? Oh c'mon. This is just mystique-speak for nerd. :)
| quote: | | What's wrong with editing my own posts ? Sometimes it takes some time to express myself or if I want to soften the tone of my post in the heat of the discussion. We don't speak english here you know and thus a painful mistake is made quickly. Maybe some better do the same, it is good to read your own post and to evaluate directly ;) Better for the athmosphere. |
I was just getting a bit motion sick trying to keep up with a moving target. :)
The first post I saw was simply "Where can I read that?" which I replied to and then it came up again with an additional comment about a certain other individual having their designs defended staunchly by others. When I went to reply to that, your post came up with only the "Where can I read that?" line of the original post. And then when I pull it up again it added "Only Nelson can qualify for that!"
Hmmmm. Someone needs to make up a blowing chunks smiley. :)
| quote: | | BTW It surprises me that some can't stand positive comment on a japanese-french designer they probably never heard of before and at the same time speak the same way about another designer of amps :confused: |
Not sure if you're directing this at me or not, but I'm not bothered by positive comments about any design. It's when comments amount to deification that my cynic bone gets triggered.
se |
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| grataku |
Jean-Paul,
did Hiraga ever state clearly the criteria of choice for the active components? After he was all said and done and put his ears back in the stradivari case he must have measured some parameters so that the amp could be produced in a small number all having the same sonic signature. Or did he 'tune' them one by one?
Lacombe,
the parallel between a stradivari violin and a transistor, though colorful, is most unfortunate. For example, one would hope that a 20% humidity variation wouldn't influence the tone of your amp as much as the tone of a violin.
I wonder how stradivari sounded when new, my guess is that there weren't many people making violins back then, and that their sound got better as the wood aged, there are many ways in which a legend can be born. |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | Hiraga is a seminal designer of the minimalist persuasion.
He does not need added mystification, any more than I do.
If he were to speak for himself here, I'm certain there would be no argument.
By the way, don't go setting me up as a golden ear, even sarcastically. I'm a topologist by trade, with decent, but not spectacular ears. |
You are sure right about the mystification. But he did put an enormous amount of time in his designs and deserves some respect.
I don't set you up as a golden ear. If I would have wanted to be sarcastic to you I would have adressed to you personally. Just got the feeling some measure with different standards.
| quote: | | It's when comments amount to deification that my cynic bone gets triggered. |
Can't agree more.
Jean-Paul |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrille
Anyone built this amp? Having problems finding the transistors...
Does the PSU have to be so big, I think it is over 0,5F/ch!
It looks like a very fine amplifier.
http://www.gmweb.btinternet.co.uk/monster31.htm |
My pal Leif has built this amp long time ago. I don't know if they are alive these days. Send me a message if you want to come in contact with him. He lives in Göteborg, Sweden. |
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| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
If I would have wanted to be sarcastic to you I would have adressed to you personally. |
Oh. I imagined that that's what :o meant...
In any case, It would be very desirable if one could locate the information on the specific criteria of the actual components used: particularly the beta, and the amount and types of distortion actually achieved in the original. This would at least provide a quide path to replicating his results.
pass/ - has gotten used to a little sarcasm, being married with children |
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| jean-paul |
:o means embarassed I see. Anyway, it should have been ;)
One click too early.
maybe a blunt remark: I don't know if Hiraga still lives ? Maybe he can clarify some of the mystique around his designs himself ?!?! |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | maybe a blunt remark: I don't know if Hiraga still lives ? Maybe he can clarify some of the mystique around his designs himself ?!?! |
He does and is now editor in chief of the French audio magazine "La Nouvelle" revue du son.
I very much doubt he will either have the time or inclination to explain the design choices.
All the techniques that were incorporated are very well documented in the isssues of the now defunct "L'Audiophile" magazine.
The development of the " Le Monstre" amp were a team effort not just Jean Hiraga on his own.
Cheers,;) |
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| rmgvs |
I built both the Hiraga class-A and the Monstre, several of each of them, and experimented a lot with using the offical parts from Paris and using common stuff. Besides that I heard some hand-built and factory built copies of them (not the Monstre, was not for sale in shops ever).
I wrote an article about them somewhere around 1998 in a dutch audio-journal.
My conclusions at that time:
- both are very fine and exceptional amplifers
- The Hiraga is less critical and sound slightly warmer than the Monstre
- The Hiraga class A can be built using quite normal parts and a cheaper power supply and still sounds very good (of course you can hear differences with the original parts though)
- The Monstre is a different story, I heart it very good sounding but also quite bad, the differences could be heart within one specific amplifier over time also
- Differences in sound did not alway correlate with price of the parts used, I also used car batteries and found the differences not that big. My advice is: just try different transistors and capacitiors (within reason of course, but you can try 3055 and 2955, it will work allright) and listen for yourself. We all know that Hiraga is a very special designer who knew what he did very well but who also had a great feeling for mystification, be your own judge, it is probable that you can better the original
- And no: both Hiraga's do not surpass or equal a very good tube amplifier on subjective grounds, sorry, they can come close to say a standard push-pull el84 amplifier (with the exception of the painstaking clarity and see-through of the Monstre, on some occasions).
rmgvs |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
Just out of curiosity I did a Spice model for the Monstre. The design is super critical of parts selection and even bias groups and Hfe selection for correct operation. THE DESIGN HAS VERY POOR PHASE MARGIN. Without the ability to make some very good high frequency measurements and without careful selection of parts (including measuring the Hfe), the chances of build an amplifier instead of a power oscillator are slim to none. The thing looks to be very sensitive to load impedance including speaker cable capacitance.
I would attribute getting the design to work more as evidence of dumb luck than skillful design. Turning the publishing the design for others to try to build could be described as irresponsible. Designs that twitchy on parts selection and excruciating demands on layout and speaker loads hardly strikes me as the work of "a very special designer" but more the work of a very special sadist.
When comparing this "design" to the forgiving and stable design projects by Nelson Pass, the title of very special designer goes to Mr. Pass. Nelson also does not practice mystification but provides theory, measurements, and practical advice. It makes me appreciate his efforts even more when contrasted with Mr. Hiraga's designs.
'The development of the " Le Monstre" amp were a team effort not just Jean Hiraga on his own'
Yes, and as Mark Twain said, "a camel is a horse designed by a commitee." |
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| grataku |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Just out of curiosity I did a Spice model for the Monstre. The design is super critical of parts selection and even bias groups and Hfe selection for correct operation. THE DESIGN HAS VERY POOR PHASE MARGIN. Without the ability to make some very good high frequency measurements and without careful selection of parts (including measuring the Hfe), the chances of build an amplifier instead of a power oscillator are slim to none. The thing looks to be very sensitive to load impedance including speaker cable capacitance.
I would attribute getting the design to work more as evidence of dumb luck than skillful design. Turning the publishing the design for others to try to build could be described as irresponsible. Designs that twitchy on parts selection and excruciating demands on layout and speaker loads hardly strikes me as the work of "a very special designer" but more the work of a very special sadist.
When comparing this "design" to the forgiving and stable design projects by Nelson Pass, the title of very special designer goes to Mr. Pass. Nelson also does not practice mystification but provides theory, measurements, and practical advice. It makes me appreciate his efforts even more when contrasted with Mr. Hiraga's designs. |
:drink:
Salut to that! The circuit was a real biatch to get to work, I always had the feeling that it was hacked through somohow, masking the complete lack of a clue in circuit design with a somehow super human hearing sense. It probably sounded best when it wasn't oscillating.
I am thankful you exist Fred! ;) |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
| Except on the occassions when I **** you off..... Hiraga may be a brillant designer, I just think releasing a design like that to the unsuspecting causes lots of heartache and bitterness. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Hiraga may be a brillant designer, I just think releasing a design like that to the unsuspecting causes lots of heartache and bitterness. |
Obviously you guys never read the articles.
This "Le Monstre" amp was meant as a study, a challenge if you like.
Nobody was encouraged to just build it, in fact by the time it was published, they already ran out of original components.
I certainly would not encourage anyone to build it before doing an in depth study of the design and delving deep into the articles as published in "L'Audiophile".
As for mystification, get real please.
The man is not seeking that at all, he just wants his privacy and wants to do his job.
If anything, he's a journalist with a background in electronics and he sure was ahead of his time realising the importance of passive and active components, be that in tubebased or semi-conductor based designs.
It surely deserves some credit when the work by him and his co-workers is still discussed more than twenty years after publication.
Sorry for the rant,;) |
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| jcarr |
Fred: I know one audio designer who deliberately designs his amplifiers to have some overshoot and ringing, because he prefers the sound this way. This person is a former Tektronix engineer, and he definitely knows how to stabilize an amplifier so that overshoot is well-damped and it settles quickly. Nonetheless, he adjusts his amplifiers so that on square waves there is clear overshoot and a couple of cycles of ringing. Claims that this adds more air and a greater sense of detail.
Makes life interesting when you try to work with someone like this...
regards, jonathan carr |
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| grataku |
I knew a reprisal from the franco-nipponic alliance was going to happen. ;)
What do you expect to happen when one publishes an article on a premiere magazine with claim of outstanding sound, esoteric components and a sprikles the whole thing with a general aura of mysticism?
PS Fred you know that it's just one of those 'love to hate' kind of arrangements. |
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| Nelson Pass |
| No designer or artist is perfect. We should admire the unique contribution that is made and take that away with us, leaving the rest. |
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| Tube_Dude |
| quote: | | I know one audio designer who deliberately designs his amplifiers to have some overshoot and ringing, because he prefers the sound this way |
Me too!!!
This overshoot and ringing is because the square wave signal generator as a rise time must faster that any audio signal...so limiting the bandwith for good square wave reponse...can slow the amp only for the sake of good square waves photos...
One more case where measures and sound quality are not in step!! ;) |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
| On the contrary I read them very closely (a translation) and studied the transistor data sheets close enough to know why the Hfe values were picked in the output transistors to put the driver transistors at the bias points for best Ft. I also tweaked my JFET transistor models for the specified yellow bias groups. I went into the analysis with no preconceived ideas in order to see what might make this design so special. Maginal design is still marginal design no matter what the reputation of the designer. I would even speculate that I did even closer technical analysis than the designer/s. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | I would even speculate that I did even closer technical analysis than the designer/s. |
Easy enough to do so many years later...
Jean Hiraga never claimed to be "the designer' of this amp...
No offense, but I feel you're missing the crux of the matter.
Credit where credit due please.;)
My feeling is that most of what is being discussed on the forum here regarding passive components, active components is just about 20 years behind of what the Japanese, European community knows already thanks to Jean Hiraga.
Let me put it this way, thanks to the team of "L'Audiophile" most of us learned how to set up our system, pay attention to detail and everything else long before TAS and Stereophile woke up to the theme.
Not crediting these people would be a major historical disgrace.
As a matter of fact I see a lot of people borrowing their ideas, yourself included Mr.Fred.
I'm certainly thankful for what they thought me,;) |
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| Helix |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tube_Dude
Me too!!!
This overshoot and ringing is because the square wave signal generator as a rise time must faster that any audio signal...so limiting the bandwith for good square wave reponse...can slow the amp only for the sake of good square waves photos...
One more case where measures and sound quality are not in step!! ;) |
What? i do not understand your explantion of wanting overshoot and ringing. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
The answer is in the quote already.
Cheers,;) |
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| AKSA |
Stop!!
Difficult to disagree with any of you!
Too many designs, not sufficient understanding, and little or no understanding of issues of philosophy. Audio design is not just engineering, it's art........
Cheers,
Hugh
www.aksaonline.com |
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| Tyimo |
Hello!
I have a strange, a bit stupid question!
Is it possible to create a SE version from the original PP Hiraga Class A (or may be from The Monster) as for example the JE Labs made from the Williamson PP tube amp? ( it could be not the best comparison.....)
I would like to hear the diffrence between the 2 operations and because I am an enthusiast of the SE amps.
Thanks!
P.S.: I built the Monster and it is a realy good amp....... |
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| yldouright |
Fred Dieckmann| quote: | | Except on the occassions when I **** you off..... Hiraga may be a brillant designer, I just think releasing a design like that to the unsuspecting causes lots of heartache and bitterness. |
This may have been his intention in that substituting components would have highlighted the audable qualities of the passive components. Still, that's only if we accept his intention as noble. It is possible to envision him with a pernicious snicker after setting it loose on the general public as a project. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Seems to me alot got lost in the translation as it happened to Jocko's bolognese sauce:
| quote: | | Hiraga may be a brillant designer, I just think releasing a design like that to the unsuspecting causes lots of heartache and bitterness. |
Le Monstre has got nothing to do whatsoever whith whatever Jean Hiraga designed...It was a bleeding STAX design.
Learn some languages or go back to your cages, please, please, please.
In order of preference; French, Japanese and than mine.
After that come back and talk about something you REALLY know about.
Thank you, :smash: |
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| dimitri |
Amplificateurs classe A 8 watts « Le monstre »
Jean Hiraga (l’Audiophile No. 27)
In October 1979, within the framework of the Audio-Fair of Tokyo, an exhibitor presented an enormous apparatus, a prototype of amplifier, which was unfortunately never born . Considering its size, its weight, its transformer of 1 200 VA, its supplies with shunt regulation for each stage, it lookked like a very powerful amplifier. 2 X 300 Watts? 2 X 500 Watts? Moreover, this prototype was baptized "The Monster", a well deserved name. But there was something of very unusual. It was the sign placed in front of the "Monster", which indicated "monaural amplifyer, nominal output power 8 Watts, pure class A". What to satisfy the audiophiles passion to Watt of very high quality, "hyper-powerful" Watt. Already, since 1958, the English firm Quad showed that 15 Watts (Quad II) were enough to drive the famous ESL loudspeaker, whose output did not exceed 87 dB/Watt. Here also, exponent was the firm _Stax Industries Co Ltd_, famous for the quality of its loudspeakers and its electrostatic headphones and also of its amplifiers. With this prototype, Stax proved that hyper-powerful “Watt", the "hyper-transparency" Watt, of a quality exceeding the majority of the best achievements with tubes, existed. However, as regards tube amplifiers, that can be said with full knowledge of the facts. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Thank you very much Dimitri...seems Babelfish isn't too bad after all...
From that, ladies and gents the SE triode fashion evolved and guess what....it bounced back into transistor design.
I'll leave the final judgement to your fine perception and oh so clouded misconceptions.
Once again, thanks to Dimitri,;) |
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| grataku |
Frank,
why everytime someone talks about Hiraga you get so hot and bothered? ;)
Why didn't you bring up this Stax issue before? The Monstre has always been regarded as one of Hiraga's designs. What's the big effin deal? |
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| massimo |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
Why didn't you bring up this Stax issue before? The Monstre has always been regarded as one of Hiraga's designs. |
Read post # 11 |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | why everytime someone talks about Hiraga you get so hot and bothered? |
Hot? Nah...Bothered, maybe a little.
As I have the good fortune to know the man rather well and know most L'Audiophile issues inside out I try to correct the urban myths wherever I can.
All that stuff that was written so many years ago really deserves to be translated, there's so much in there on all kind of audio related topics.
The sad thing is that it's still rehashed over and over here and in other places and nine out of ten people come up with the wrong answers.
Anyway, sorry to have interupted...
Cheers,;) |
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| Mike L. |
Hello everyone,
I have been reading this thread and another one concerning Le monstre. I'm confused. While one poster says that his Spice simulation of the amplifier is so unstable that it is a cruel joke to unleash this design on the diy community, others state that hundreds have been built successfully.
Is it an unstable design? Can success only be realized using specially selected components?
The reason I ask is that I've discovered that Newark Electronics has virtually all the components available. I verified this through a sales representative. I'm quite new to diy audio and really don't want to invest the dollars and wind up with a high frequency oscillator.
Thank you.
Mike L. |
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| Tyimo |
Mike L!
It is 100% stable and easy to build!!! And the sound......!
You have to try it! |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | It is 100% stable and easy to build!!! And the sound......! |
The endresults are very much the sum of the parts used; for the semi-conductors I'd stick as close as possible to the original parts.
The passive parts in the PS can easily be bettered nowadays.
Happy building the monster,;) |
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| Tyimo |
Hi!
Is there anybody Who has built or heard the Hiraga Nemesis amp?
Is it worth to build it?
Thanks! |
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| UrSv |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrille
Anyone built this amp? Having problems finding the transistors...
Does the PSU have to be so big, I think it is over 0,5F/ch!
It looks like a very fine amplifier.
http://www.gmweb.btinternet.co.uk/monster31.htm |
Does anybody actually reach this site? I've tried from three different providers in two parts of Europe without luck. |
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| chris ma |
| quote: | Originally posted by UrSv
Does anybody actually reach this site? I've tried from three different providers in two parts of Europe without luck. |
May be this is what you are looking for
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/
Chris |
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| UrSv |
| Yup, I just found it. Sorry for not looking first... |
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
Frank,
why everytime someone talks about Hiraga you get so hot and bothered? ;)
Why didn't you bring up this Stax issue before? The Monstre has always been regarded as one of Hiraga's designs. What's the big effin deal? |
If you read the text, it's Hiraga reporting on the Stax Le Monstre at the Tokyo Show. Right, Frank?
Jan Didden |
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| janneman |
| The one and only: |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | If you read the text, it's Hiraga reporting on the Stax Le Monstre at the Tokyo Show. Right, Frank? |
Indeed it is, Jan.
If there's sufficient interest I'm willing to have a stab at translating that page and post it for you all.
Here's a link with the complete diagram and PCB layout:
AMPLI LE MONSTRE.
There's also a British site with partial translations but I can't seem to find it right now.
Maybe some of you know about it already?
Cheers,;) |
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| Upupa Epops |
| It's crazy to see amp without any protection, which have power rails connected to the battery 45 - 170 Ah (!) or to the caps 200 G. It's crazy see amp with this power supply which have power lines on PCB only 1 mm wide, where, if output is shorted, current flow is 13 A. Is the question, what break first - this line or 5 W resistor. In front of your burning house you can to think about : " Is Le Monster this amp or is Le Monster Jean Hiraga ? " |
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| jarek |
| quote: | | It's crazy see amp with this power supply which have power lines on PCB only 1 mm wide |
He. he.. Maybe these traces work as a fuse? :) |
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| Upupa Epops |
| To Jarek : Yes, but it is " pig work " :D - and all state test laboratory will be look at this the same. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Ta. That's the site I had in mind.
| quote: | | He. he.. Maybe these traces work as a fuse? |
I wouldn't count on it and they're not 1mm traces either.
Shrek,:D |
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| grataku |
Jan and Frank,
so which one is it? Not that I care one way or the other. The so called "monster" is essentially identical to the 20w hiraga le classe A and is being attributed to Hiraga in some way or another by Bonavolta and others.
I can read French good enough to read the following:
with this prototype Stax shows that the "hyper-powerful" watt, the "hyper-transparent" watt (note of the translator: who reads this **** anyway?) of a quality that surpasses the majority of the best tube amplifiers, exists
However, Hiraga takes this design under his wing and developes it in this article and in the second article where he is happy to indicate that a number of amps have been built. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | so which one is it? |
Inspiration: Stax, perspiration: Hiraga and Co.
| quote: | | The so called "monster" is essentially identical to the 20w hiraga le classe A and is being attributed to Hiraga in some way or another by Bonavolta and others. |
Historically, d'abord le Monstre" et ensuite L'Hirage 20W Classe A monsieur.
| quote: | | with this prototype Stax shows that the "hyper-powerful" watt, the "hyper-transparent" watt (note of the translator: who reads this **** anyway?) of a quality that surpasses the majority of the best tube amplifiers, exists |
Stax's idea was to prove, once and for all that an amplifier using solid state devices could be made that could possibly outperform the legendary 300B tube amps.
Legendary at that time in Japan at least (my edit).
And what a monster of an amp it took to even attempt to prove just that. (my comment)
They also wanted to make clear to the public that it was better to have a few "quality" watts than to have a ton of garbage watts.
| quote: | | However, Hiraga takes this design under his wing and developes it in this article and in the second article where he is happy to indicate that a number of amps have been built. |
Yes, and as he develops the article he also points out that a number of the parts are already obsolete but crucial to the sonic result and that passive parts are crucial just the same.
For a while " La Maison de L'Audiophile" ( the sales branch of the cleverly set up triangle) offers the parts as a kit.
To my ears the Hiraga 20W Class A design betters the "Le Monstre" but that, my friend, is just my auditory opinion.
In a nutshell, I can dig up a few Hiraga designs from old issues of that mag and they all have one thing in common: musicality.
PRATly yours,;) |
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