| seattlerain1 |
Hi everyone,
I'm an artist and really need some lower-end in my studio. I'm not sure what I should go with though... here's the specs of the space:
1500 sf (140 sq. meters)
"quanset hut" style steel building (large 1/2 circle curve)
it's insulated
50' (15 meters) long
17' (5 meters) high
CONCRETE FLOOR
I was thinking a long tube-style subwoofer would be best, but I'm open to suggestions. I could build it myself, pay someone else to do it, or just buy something off the shelf (or from someone).
All suggestions welcome!!!!!
Thanks,
James |
|
|
| TwisterZ |
I lived in a Quanset Hut in Fairbanks Alaska back before it was a state and I don't remember much in the way of insulation.
You might consider an acoustic wave cannon hanging in the middle of your ceiling. Check out this thread,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...25&pagenumber=1
There are pics of my cannon on post #265 |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
Hi Twisterz,
Thanks for the response. I'm new and wasn't sure if anyone WOULD reply. I love the idea of a wave cannon hanging between my lights near the ceiling.
I took a look at your photo on the other forum... very nicely done! I have to admit, I read more MATH in that thread than I ever thought I would as an artist, and some of it was way above my head. It made me think I should just by an amped square-box front-firing sub.
(Downward doesn't make a lot of sense if it's a concrete floor.)
I DO have one 'room' in my studio that's around 6' deep, 12' long and 9' high.. maybe a down-firing sub would work if it sat on top of the room.
Anyway, I have some Fostex speakers that do alright in the space... but they have no lows, I'm sure I'll figure something out.
James, Port Orchard (near seattle) |
|
|
| TwisterZ |
Hello James,
I love my canon:D . If you go this route I'm sure you will enjoy the result. You also have enough length to put two of them if you needed higher volumes. Make sure you use a driver with a large Xmax, I plan on rebuilding mine with the new Mach5 IXL-18.4.
http://www.mach5audio.com/index-1.html
Another option, if the room you mentioned is sealed (or could be) an IB manifold on the top of it could give you lots & lots of base. The more drivers the more base. Also with a switch to reverse the Phase could be used in either room. Check out The Cult.
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com |
|
|
| dangus |
Some kind of horn would be fun... if you don't ever plan to move it, it could be built from cheap stuff like MDF, or even recycled cement blocks.
OTOH, those newfangled tapped horns are a whole lot easier to build, and may be quite good enough. |
|
|
| owdi |
Hello James,
I'm local, and I'd be happy to help you out with the design. I can't build though, because I don't have access to a garage right now.
I have the necessary measuring equipment, and software, to design a great sounding system. But first, I need to know your goals. Is the purpose of this project to provide ambient music for people visiting your studio, or for your personal enjoyment? What is your budget?
A project which I have been itching to try is a stereo pair of bipole sealed subwoofers in sonotubes. Construction would be easy, and the end result would provide excellent low distortion bass.
Let me know. I do this for fun, so no charge for my services.
Dan |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
Hi Dan,
Thank you for the offer. I'd love to actually design something for the space... it's VERY odd... huge ceilings, curved wall/ceiling, concrete floor, and different listening spots throughout the day.
I really don't have a budget, but if push came to shove, I'd suspect under $500 at the moment.
If I get a new sculpture commission I'm working on, that could change, but, shrug, you can never tell about these things.
A subwoofer would at least give me bass (I like dance / techno / industrial when I'm making tons of noise and just need motivation) At other times, I listen to Mile Davis... jazz... blues, Irish, ... hell, everything.
I never just sit in the perfect chair and listen when in my studio.
Any help or suggestions from you would be Fantastic!
James |
|
|
| owdi |
A few more questions....
What speaker system will this subwoofer project complement? You mentioned you have Fostex speakers right now. Can you provide some more details?
What are your size and shape restrictions? This is important, because the more space the subwoofer can occupy, the less you have to spend to get your desired results.
How many subwoofers can you accept? Getting uniform bass in a large space is impossible with just one. The more subwoofers you have, the easier it is to arrange them so you have a large sweet spot.
Does that $500 also include an amplifier? Are you willing to buy used?
You seem to like the idea of tube style subwoofers, so a transmission line could be the ticket. They can be very musical, efficient and extend very low. They are also inexpensive to build, and easy to tune with the right equipment. I have many more ideas, but I don't want to make a specific suggestion until I know a little more.
Dan |
|
|
| owdi |
Just one possibility...
A pair of down firing Dayton RSS315HF-4 12" Reference drivers, each in a 12" wide 8' long sonotube. One end of the tube would be open, and the inside would be heavily stuffed.
All powered by this Dayton APA150 150W Power Amplifier
The subwoofers would be driven in stereo. You could place them as columns behind your current speakers, or suspend them from the ceiling.
Dan |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
Hi Dan,
When you say 'downfiring' does that mean they must be up and down, or could the 8' tubes be horizontal? if the tubes were 45 feet apart, could they still utilize the single amp?
As for having Two instead of one... is that for the space they will be in?
Thanks!
James
www.jameskelseystudios.com |
|
|
| owdi |
| quote: | Originally posted by seattlerain1
Hi Dan,
When you say 'downfiring' does that mean they must be up and down, or could the 8' tubes be horizontal? if the tubes were 45 feet apart, could they still utilize the single amp?
As for having Two instead of one... is that for the space they will be in?
Thanks!
James
www.jameskelseystudios.com |
Yes, they can be horizontal. In fact, horizontal is better. 45 feet apart is no problem.
Just checked out your website. Are the Heimdall's Trumpets what you are using right now?
Dan |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
Hey Dan,
No, no... Heimdall's Trumpets are safe within my house, not out in th studio with flying metal dust and who knows what... One day I'll have a nice tube amp for them, but for the moment, I just have a off the shelf Denon running them.
Down in the studio, I actually have some Fostex (don't remember off the top of my head) speakers (two-way in one cone)... I don't know all the correct terms. I actually WON them at the last local VSAC conference... they were built into very thick plastic 'flower pots' and are now mounted about 10' in the air. They're actually a bit TOO directional and the acoustics are odd... the volume and quality of the music changes drastically as you walk around the studio.
Shrug... right now, musically, my studio does to sound sort of what the movie "The Road Warrior" does to automobiles.
OH! Stop ROLLING YOUR EYES!!!! (the first step to recovery is admitting I have a problem!)
James. |
|
|
| ruerose |
| The flying metal dust might be a problem for speakers. Unless the metal your working with is not magnetic. |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
95% of the metal i work with is NOT magnetic... Stainless steel and Bronze, but even stainless dust has some magnetic properties. Luckily, the speakers are UP fairly high, and probably 35' from where I grind... If the speaker that I end up with is exposed, I'm sure I can cover it with something to protect it from dust.
but thanks for the reminder!
James |
|
|
| seventenths |
What size Fostex drivers?... and are they full-range with a whizzer ?
Does your "work-space" include the entire structure?
It would be interesting to see how a simple set of BiBs interact with a curved ceiling.
Lastly, what do you build/create ?
7/10 |
|
|
| Petter Persson |
Imperial folded horn mabye?
http://www.decware.com/newsite/main...erial.htm&intro
I have listen to a setup with two in a 80 sqm room and it is really
impressive! One 15" in each. We played with a 10 W tube
amplifyer so the house shattered. Use drivers vith low mass,
high Bl and medium/long excursion.
This is one of the best subwoofers i've ever heard, much metter
than all ported boxes for exampel. The only sub who can be
comparable with this one is the 4,5 kubic meter horn I build this
summer.
The imperial hits very hard and fast in the lower region totally
without a constant "mummeling" between the bass tones.
Regards / Petter |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seattlerain1
Down in the studio, I actually have some Fostex (don't remember off the top of my head) speakers (two-way in one cone)... I don't know all the correct terms. I actually WON them at the last local VSAC conference... they were built into very thick plastic 'flower pots' and are now mounted about 10' in the air. |
Wild guess.... FE167
dave |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
Wild guess.... FE167
dave |
From AA VSAC coverage -- is this what you ended up with?
| quote: | | he made off with a pair of Larry D Moore's "flower pot" horns complete with Fostex 206Es and back chamber. |
and this from 6moons looks to be a picture
dave |
|
|
| seventenths |
Dave,
what are your thoughts regarding 206's in either Bibs or big dbl horns in such a space?
thanks
7/10 |
|
|
| planet10 |
With no corners BIBs might be challenged. Sachiko would certainly generate much more bass and be far less directional than Larry Moore's front horns (if indeed that is what we are talking) which are challenged below 200 Hz.
dave |
|
|
| m0tion |
| quote: | Originally posted by TwisterZ
I lived in a Quanset Hut in Fairbanks Alaska back before it was a state |
Whoa... you are seriously old. Alaska became a state in '59. |
|
|
| GM |
| Gees, I wonder what that makes me? Oh wait! It tells me right here on this cup I got on my last birthday, I'm three days older than dirt. :( |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
Hey Planet10,
I never thought to take a look at VSAC's page.
LOL! You're right, They ARE the Fostex 206Es in the 'flower pot', although my flower pots are much deeper (18") than the ones in your picture. They Sound VERY nice... but there's no low end in my studio, hence, this post.
I'm leaning towards the tube sub that Dan was suggesting, but I'm still not sure. I don't have a lot of free floorspace, so suspended sounds good, but I DO have a utility room that I made, so something could go on top of it's 'roof'.
I really like the folded horns, but they seem WAY more complicated that I have the time or ability to create.
Thanks for looking up the Fostexs! |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
I think Dan had made a hint and making the sub for me... but I could be Way off base, just tell me if I'm wrong...
But...
If there are any sort of local people here who have a proven design that'll do what I need, I could see supplying all the material if you have the time and energy to create a subwoofer for me. I can't pay you a lot, but I'm sure I could pay something for your time if you wanted / needed it.
It would be GREAT if you were really local (West side of the Puget Sound) and I could help, just to learn something, but, well... I haven't seen anyone THAT local in this thread.
Anyone?
James
www.jameskelseystudios.com |
|
|
| TwisterZ |
| quote: | | Whoa... you are seriously old. Alaska became a state in '59. |
| quote: | | Gees, I wonder what that makes me? Oh wait! It tells me right here on this cup I got on my last birthday, I'm three days older than dirt. |
My dad had a shirt that said older than dirt & I tell people thet when I was a boy dirt was clean.:D
I still think 2 of the canons about 16feet long each hanging in the top of the arch would blow you away everywhere in the space, it would be like sitting in the mouth of a large horn. |
|
|
| seventenths |
James,
I have a feeling that if you take your 206's out of the flower pots and put them into the right cabinets, you may not find a need for the sub. I would go this route before building subs, but thats just me.
http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn.html
BTW: your art looks great
7/10 |
|
|
| GM |
| quote: | Originally posted by seattlerain1
LOL! You're right, They ARE the Fostex 206Es in the 'flower pot', although my flower pots are much deeper (18") than the ones in your picture. They Sound VERY nice... but there's no low end in my studio, hence, this post. |
Greets!
OK, so are you saying that you only have the 'flown' Fostex flower pot horns and nothing else? If so, then the first thing you need is a 'flown' mid-bass system to mate to the horns to bridge the gap between these and a floor or wall mounted sub system. This system alone will eat up your budget.
GM |
|
|
| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seattlerain1
LOL! You're right, They ARE the Fostex 206Es in the 'flower pot', although my flower pots are much deeper (18") than the ones in your picture. They Sound VERY nice... but there's no low end in my studio, hence, this post. |
The Moore horn is only intended to be a mid-tweeter & needs (& was designed) to have support below ~250 Hz. This needs to be sitting right under/beside the flower pot horns (ie what GM said). And getting something that mates with & keeps up with the flower pots is a significanly greater challenge than a subwoofer. They also have very narrow dispersion so they have a narrow sweet spot.
They are far from the best use of the 206s for your space & how they are being used. Putting them in a more appropriate enclosure for the current use seems to me to make the most sense. You can get 40 Hz or so out of something like Sachiko. Sachiko doesn't need as much room support as a BIB, which would be top of the list if you could find a way to mount them and get corner/room support.
dave |
|
|
| seventenths |
You could build BiBs on the cheap and if they failed to couple with the room properly, you could invert them and add the K-slot.
If you were a tad closer, I'd carry mine over for a test...
7/10 |
|
|
| seattlerain1 |
| quote: | | I still think 2 of the canons about 16feet long each hanging in the top of the arch would blow you away everywhere in the space, it would be like sitting in the mouth of a large horn. |
What do you think the cost would be for 2 cannons? Do you think it's something a person who's never made a speaker could do without pulling his hair out (or taking a month to do it)?
Thanks! |
|
|
| owdi |
| quote: | Originally posted by seattlerain1
What do you think the cost would be for 2 cannons? Do you think it's something a person who's never made a speaker could do without pulling his hair out (or taking a month to do it)?
Thanks! |
The cost for enclosures, less finish, would be less than $100. Woofers plus amps could run you anywhere from $300 to a gazillion. However, don't overdo it. IMO, a pair of 12" subs is more than enough. The setup I suggested earlier is capable of 110db in your space. You could go with 15" woofers, and a bigger amp, and reach 120db, but do you really need it?
As I mentioned earlier, my capacity for construction is severely limited right now. I could route the baffles, that's about it. The main construction would have to take place somewhere else. Especially the finishing, since that can require a dust free environment.
Dan |
|
|
| TwisterZ |
| If you use the Mach 5 Audio MJ-18 @$116USD each 3 12'X16" sonotube @$60USD each & a Beheringer Ep2500 @$350USD Thats about $800 with a little hardware to put them together. I built mine in about 2-3 hours. |
|
|
| owdi |
FYI, Partsexpress is having a nice sale on the Dayton woofers and amplifiers that I suggested earlier. You could save $90 off their regular price if you jump now.
Dan |
|
|
|
