| S.Spielbergo |
| Ok, my eyes are starting to bleed from all the reading so I will just pose the question. What represents a good value in a used(late 80's to present) CD player? I see some of the Philips and Marantz units are very good performers (great transport & DAC)that also respond well to some tweeking but I have a weekness for the industrial design of Proton, NAD, a/d/s and Carver . Unfortunately I have not been able to find much info on these makes, though I have read some of the Protons use respectable DAC's. There also seems to be a following for the older Yamaha's like the CDX 1100.... just looking for some input as most of my experience is with loudspeakers. I have considered running an outboard DAC but would be happy with a decent stand alone setup, thanks in advance. |
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| audio-kraut |
I found the denon 1520 very reliable units.
I found very little difference between players - compared the denon, a mission dad 7000, a philips dvd 963, a micromega stage 2, a pioneer 59 avi and my favourite - the diy unit based on a cd rom drive with a controller by diy club. |
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| S.Spielbergo |
| Wow, this guy is realy.....eh, enthusiastic about his findings, very interesting read, thanks for the excellent link. Looks like I may go for the AMC CD8b as my daily driver, cool minimalist looks and reasonable quality but I'm still looking for a decent unassuming (ehhem cheap) foundation for tweaking, experimanting. |
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| KP11520 |
Hi S.Spielbergo,
MY favorite is Rotel. Some of the experienced guys (I am not one of these guys, experienced that is) here are very impressed with Rotel after they open them up for the first time for build quality.
Look at their late 80s to mid to late 90s flagship line, the RCD 865BX and RCD 965BX and if you can find one, the RCD 965BX "Limited Edition," the nicest sounding of them all. These are wonderful performers to start with and get much better with intermediate mods. Plus they are reasonable used. I just got a Limited Edition from eBay for $90. the only thing wrong with it was a plastic button ($15.00 fix). Other than that, perfect. (This was a steal)
Then the model just below at that time was the RCD 855 and then the RCD 955. These use the TDA1541 DAC as in that article. These are even more reasonable used (these were $100 less then the 865/965s new). There are about a million posts on how to work with and/or improve the TDA1541s so if you have decided that's what you want to work with, this is a great place to start. There are several on eBay now for under $80.
Comparing the two stock (no mods), I felt the 865/965 was significantly better sounding than the 855/955s. BTW the difference between the 8xx line and the 9xx line was minimal and maybe nothing more than cosmetics (confirmed from Rotel). I don't know which has more potential without going crazy the 865/965 or the 855/955, but I prefer the 965.
The best part is Rotel still supports all four of these models and has 99% of the parts available and will do repairs on these at a reasonable rate and are located just outside Boston. They have been nothing short of woderful with me!
I hope this helps! Good luck and let us know what you decide to do!
Regards//Keith |
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| S.Spielbergo |
| Well the AMC Cd8b, arrived in great condition (excellent really considering its been around for 7 years). No...it's not the end all be all of cd players but a considerable improvement over the poor Denon DVD 2200, I have been using. LOTS of details have been exposed like congos, bongos, synths and the like. The Sony transport is lightning fast as well,not bad at all for $80. I'm still on the lookout for a vintage unit, the Rotels are quite reasonable at times but I would hate to cut my teeth on something too decent, been looking into some Philips manufactured Magnavox's, I recently saw a Philips CD 880(?) go for ~$300 on Ebay, yikes!! |
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| KP11520 |
Hey S.Spielbergo,
I saw a Rotel RCD 965BX go for $200 on eBay today. That's high. Wait until there are several on at the same time. They have a tendency for going for less when people have a 2nd and 3rd chance to pick one up. The last one or the only one usually gets the higher bids!
If you pick one up for let's say $100, who cares if it is too good to cut your teeth on. Worst case, you throw it away and buy another. At least you have something substantial and reasonable to start with (and it sounds great in stock condition too) and only gets better with each mod. I'd bet for $300 you can significantly mod it to compete with some $1500 to $2000 players and maybe even more for a total of $400.
Please reconsider the Magnavox, it is low, low end consumer stuff and you can't improve things with a poor design. Better off with a solid design with medium components, then carefully choose the higher quality components that give great bang for the buck and significant sonic differences.
That's just my opinion and exactly what I would do! Actually, it's exactly what I AM doing. I have two RCD 965BXs to mod and one is the LE. I also have a Philips CD950 and maybe I will mod it someday but the Rotels are in another class altogether (to me a better class)!!
Give it some consideration!
Regards//Keith |
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| Fin |
Hi Keith
Have you had a look inside that RCD 965BX "Limited Edition" yet?
Any idea how it differs from the standard 965BX?
I have also heard of a RCD 965BX "Limited Edition - Discrete". I wonder if it is the same thing. |
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| KP11520 |
Hi Fin
I always think of you and some of the other Rotel proponents that I have come across on these threads when researching on this unit. You are always doing your own investigation AND you have experience and that is a great combination.
The difference between the RCD 965BX and the BX Limited Edition is 4 PS capacitors with the same values. They look like OEM for Rotel with no markings from the manufacturer (black with gold markings). Probably Blackgates NX Caps. Rotel has none, they are discontinued. Yes you can hear a difference and it is somewhat noticeable. This gives endorsement to those who believe that same value but different quality components affect the sound. Also, the more we clean up those Dirty Little Power Supplies, the better it sounds.
Rotel USA claims no knowledge of a "Discrete" model and said it would have a schematic if there was one. They also admit for the European market, they have at times put a little badge like "Audiophile Edition" and "Discrete" to make the Europeans feel they are getting something better than the rest of the world. I guess this works. But don't let that be the final word, I am going to email Rotel UK and get to the bottom of this.
I am about to assemble the Class A biasing JFET Cascodes and install them onto the new OPA627APs and give it a listen over the next week or so. Maybe you have some recommendations on what other Caps I should replace while the PCB is out. The muting transistors are gone and that was also very worthwhile.
Regards//Keith |
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| Fin |
Thanks Keith
That all makes sense and I can't imagine that they made a completely new pcb with something like a "Discrete" I/V or output stage. |
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| rwtomkins |
I've got an RCD 965BX that I was thinking of clocking and I remember coming across this:
"The RCD-965BX Discrete was the top of the range 965 model - it was a 965BX LE with an extra UK designed discrete transistor output stage fitted to improve the already high standard of replay this player provided."
The quote is taken from this website:
http://www.net-audio.co.uk/965discrete.html
Sounds as though the Discrete may have been a UK-only model.
The RCD 965BX was a popular award winner in the UK and sold in huge quantities, therefore it is easily available at low prices on UK auction sites - though not right now, in the summer lull. They usually go for around £40 to £50 for the basic model and even mint ones in their original boxes seldom go for much more than £50. The LE model, however, only comes up two or three times a year and I have never seen a Discrete.
The only problem with buying an RCD 965BX and exporting it is, it weighs a tonne! (Specifically, 6kg.) Presumably one of the reasons why it's such a good machine.
Here is the owner's manual if anyone's interested:
http://europe.rotel.com/support/pdf...me=rcd965bx.pdf |
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| Fin |
| quote: | Originally posted by rwtomkins
"The RCD-965BX Discrete was the top of the range 965 model - it was a 965BX LE with an extra UK designed discrete transistor output stage fitted to improve the already high standard of replay this player provided." |
Thanks for this information. Maybe we can build something similar for our standard models. |
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| KP11520 |
Hey Fin,
I didn't know that you had a RCD 965BX. In all the threads you posted, you only asked questions and made suggestions. Never did you indicate that you actually had one.
Now I get to ask you, how do you like it and have you done any mods (if so, what did you do)?
Maybe the Rotel people in the UK added a special circuit on a daughter card that bypassed an inferior section on the main PCB on the "Discrete" unit. This way they wouldn't have to revamp the whole main PCB and only manufacture the "Discrete" version as market demands. The AH! Njoe Tjoeb has an upsampler upgrade like this but it is a user upgrade that requires no permanent attachment (solder, removing components off the main PCB, etc.).
OK, now it is time to get to the bottom of this and ask Rotel UK if they have some info on this player!
Regards//Keith |
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| adason |
Hi S.Spielbergo
if you are looking for excelent vintage CD player, do not forget studio player Technics SL-P1200. Its built like fortress and sounds excelent. You can get them often cheap on ebay. I got two, one for only $30. Beats any novadays cd player up to $400.
ed |
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| tubenut |
The discrete board was designed by/for/on behalf of the Rotel distributor in the UK and retrofitted there, not at the factory. It was an additional board that replaces the op amps with a discrete circuit. I t wa s available here in SA as well as the market here largely guided by the UK press demanded it.
It was good. My techie friend also once fitted one to a 955, that was wicked!
I understand why many preferred the 965 for its seemingly wider soundstage and "smoother" sound. (Smoother meaning less ragged and more even, not soft or lush). The 955 on the other hand sounded funkier and a little more bumpy but overall was the more musical player to me. Its tone was just more natural and it had more boogy and punch as well as more natural vocals imo. Soundstage was deeper I felt.
It was funny how in a shop demo when demmoing the two players AB to folks who did not know which was which or ever read a review, they always chose the 955. The fact that it was cheaper delighted them.
We were "treated" to dealer trainging by the Rotel distributors more thern once to show us the superiority of the 965 but it never worked on us which they did not like.
Joan Baez Diamonds and Dust made the differences clear as anything and is still a great track for comparisons. |
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| Conrad Hoffman |
| Of course with a good player, you'd hear Diamonds and Rust, not dust!:devilr: |
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| Fin |
| quote: | Originally posted by KP11520
Hey Fin,
I didn't know that you had a RCD 965BX. In all the threads you posted, you only asked questions and made suggestions. Never did you indicate that you actually had one.
Now I get to ask you, how do you like it and have you done any mods (if so, what did you do)? |
Hi Keith
Actually - I have two RCD 865BX machines....one that works perfectly and one that doesn't. Apart from a quick test when they arrived - I haven't had time to listen to any of them properly....but I hope to soon. I've also got an RCD 955AX (and some others).
| quote: | Originally posted by KP11520
Maybe the Rotel people in the UK added a special circuit on a daughter card that bypassed an inferior section on the main PCB on the "Discrete" unit. This way they wouldn't have to revamp the whole main PCB and only manufacture the "Discrete" version as market demands. |
Indeed - it looks like an add in PCB in the photo on the Net Audio site.
| quote: | Originally posted by tubenut
The discrete board was designed by/for/on behalf of the Rotel distributor in the UK and retrofitted there, not at the factory. It was an additional board that replaces the op amps with a discrete circuit. I t wa s available here in SA as well as the market here largely guided by the UK press demanded it.
It was good. My techie friend also once fitted one to a 955, that was wicked! |
And that confirms the presence of the extra board.
| quote: | Originally posted by tubenut
I understand why many preferred the 965 for its seemingly wider soundstage and "smoother" sound. (Smoother meaning less ragged and more even, not soft or lush). The 955 on the other hand sounded funkier and a little more bumpy but overall was the more musical player to me. Its tone was just more natural and it had more boogy and punch as well as more natural vocals imo. Soundstage was deeper I felt. |
Maybe I will be able to add my comments to this comparisson in the near future....time permitting. |
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| KP11520 |
Hi Guillaume,
My experience was different at the dealer. We sat for several hours for several days to decide on the 955 or 965 for my cousin to complete his new stereo purchase. Tuner/preamp, amp, cassette deck, speakers and the last decision was which CD Player. We played many CDs but several were the ones that were listened to over and over. Soul Cages by Sting and Love deluxe by Sade and several others (that was 15 years ago). We all felt the 965 was warmer and more detailed and yes that soundstage was wonderful. It only got better with age (hours).
Now, that doesn't matter much because one (based on each of our opinions) isn't better by a large margin over the other and either is a wonderful unit to just have or to mod! I think with all that is written about the TDA1541, the 955 might have a better outcome for mods. Either way, great investment.
This what I really want to know and also to thank you for clearing up the "Discrete" issue is..... Where can I get my hands on a Discrete player or schematics with that special circuit and how it ties into the main PCB? Now we're talking! That would be an interesting mod to either the 955 or 965 (you already know how that sounds on the 955).
Thanks!
And BTW S.Spielbergo, many experienced guys like these and you can't beat the price and performance!
Regards//Keith |
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| KP11520 |
Thanks Fin,
Sounds like fun, I hope you find the time! Then even more to do some mods! When you are ready I can share with you what I have learned about adding the JFET Cascode to the op amps (I used OPA627APs) for class A Biasing! It is easy and you probably don't need any help from me but just in case, it would be no problem!
Regards//Keith |
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| Fin |
Thanks Keith
I will certainly take you up on the offer of sharing your experience with what you have done so far.
Also - I agree with you on the recommendation of these CD players to S.Spielbergo. The 855/955 and 865/965 are very nicely made and look like they have lots of potential for modding. |
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| jives11 |
Dear Mr Spielbergo,
If you still want a classic/vintage player for not too much money IMHO you cannot beat some of the early Philips based models . (Philips CD104, Grundig DC7550, marantz CD-34, CD-44, B&O CDX) These are all based on the same internal boards (the TDA1540 chipset). Now I hear you cry in shock "How can I go that far back , they were all 14-bit ?"
this is true, but I re inherited the player I bought second hand in 1885, then upgraded and gave to my father in 1988. He died in 1992, my Mum then used it till she got an all-in-one DVD player, and I got it back in 2005 (20 years of faithful use )
I was going to sell it on ebay and put it on to check the sound. I was amazed, and to cut a long story short, sold the two box I was using and kept the CD104.
The positives with these players are :
1) Surprisingly good sound , especially in the bass
2) Build Quality. Single metal casting for the whole chassis CDM1 transport. My 104 weighs 7.5kg/ 16.5 lb un-modded. No plastic beyond the buttons.
3) Seems to play just about anything including CDR burned at high speed
4) Mod potential. There are some well documented mods in this forum. These range from typical Cap & Opamps changes, through valve outputs and even NOS. There is even one person who claims has fitted TDA1541 i.e gone 16-bit.
5) Wide range of units. The players listed above are all basically the same. Even the classic B&O top loader is in fact a CD104 in a different shape. You can chose the style that suits. The Grundig CD7550 seems to have quite following , perhaps because the shielding of the boards is better implemented , however these players seem to be rare outside of mainland europe.
6) I think these players will hold their value, since they are from the dawn of CD.
The negatives are :
1) Problems with dry joints. These players and other Philips devices from this period used small rivet joints to form grounds from top to bottom surfaces of the boards. These are called griplets and they fail, causing all sorts of problems, but mostly an inability to read the CD TOC except when warmed up. Replacing the griplets is a well documented procedure, and once done the players usually work fine. Full schematics are in circulation. Of course this may mean you can pick up a player cheap (broken) and get it back to working reasonably cheaply.
2) The sound is different. I like it, but it's different. I find the top end a bit harder, but that maybe down to the analogue stages and tweakable. Perhaps sound stage is not as great ? Opinions vary, but I gave up a pretty good 2 box transport & dac, and it wasn't just for nostalgia.
3) Features are minimal and track access time is glacial.
4) No remote
So... just my tupence worth, but if you see one cheap , it could be a fast route to owning a piece of audiophile history. |
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| KP11520 |
Hey S.Spielbergo,
There is a Rotel RCD 865BX on eBay with no bids that ends in about 24 hours with a starting bid price at $50. It is located in New Jersey. Shipping can't be bad or maybe even a drive to pick it up!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROTEL-RCD-865BX...1QQcmdZViewItem
Can't beat it!
Regards//Keith |
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| wckong |
Hi members (who live in U.K.),
Can anyone lives in U.K. help me to bid this Ebay item(110154191892) i.e. Rotel cd player 965BX LE.
Seller don't deal with overseas bidders.
I can be contacted at this address:
wckong1950@netvigator.com
Payment can be made in advance via Paypal.
Regards.
Kong |
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| S.Spielbergo |
| I just missed the RCD 865bx the other night, logged on durring the last few minutes then my laptop batteries died, oh well. I happened to see an ADC 16/2r locally for faily cheap and grabbed it, though I realize its not in the same league as the Rotel it should still be worth cracking open and looking inside, BTW anybody here have any experience with the ADC players? |
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| SimontY |
Hi all,
It's interesting to read what's been said about Rotels with add-on discrete output stages.
I cracked open an 865 that I bought as a backup on Ebay, and it has no op-amps (spaces where they should be) and a riser board (looks factory fitted) with various nice parts onboard.
The model is RCD-865 (no AX, BX or LE markings, front or rear). It sounds very smooth (not hi-fi by modern standards, but nice on the ears).
A friend is having a good look at it and may take some good photos shortly to learn more.
Simon |
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| bazoenca |
the riser boards are probably descrete opamp stages from an aftermarket manufacturer.
i own a original 965bx and have modded a lot through the years.
some things worked and other things didn't.
my advise regarding the opamps is simple.
forget al the ic changes. i went descrete some time ago with descrete opamps from burson audio in australie. i'll never change back to ic's.
experiments (proper calculations were made) with the 4 couplingcaps gave interesting changes. after this it became verry clear why the rotel guys made their changes when going from mk1 to mk2 (check your pcb)
i fitted a netaudio clockback in 2006 and have never had a day of regret, money well spend.
the final setup can bee seen in the picture. if anyone is interested i will post the list with all the changes made.
a friend of mine has an original 965 descrete model. i have verry good pics from the inside where you can see how the original opams stage is bypassed.
voltage regulation is also different. |
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| mp9 |
| re: the org. post, a SONY X707ES |
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| S.Spielbergo |
| After missing a handfull of Rotels on ebay I finally found a neglected Proton AC-620 "..has bad display", well yes the display was bad but so was the servo section (fried resistor among other things ) and it did not function. Long story short, everything is fixed now (all new caps, Pany FM/FC and OSCONS), some new resistors and I replaced the ouput stage with LME**** opamps and Dayton Poly 18uf 250v caps. The tda1541 got new 200 pf Vishay MKT caps and the headphone section was tossed. I think the TDA's really could have benefited from their own regulated source's of power but I never got around to building a little supply for them. After all that work I'm happy to say the thing operates well and sounds very good, its not saying much but it sounds much smoother and more transparent than my OPPO DV 981HD or AMC CD8b. I'm still trying to figure out what Philips board is used inside but so far no luck, I did find that it is nearly identical to a Dual player from the early 90's. Anyhow I am still having just a little trouble with the CDM4 transport, with the CD clamp down it quietly "ticks" and "chirps" from time to time, with it up there are no problems,?! |
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| SimontY |
My Ebay bargain - Philips CD650 - also uses CDM4 I think, as well as the wonderful TDA1541. Great sound with a few mods.
Simon |
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| jameshillj |
The ball bearing in the rotating part may need some grease - if you disassemble it, the little ball is easily lost - have done this myself! Or perhaps, it's off line and needs to be relocated in it's retainer. If nothing works, get another clamp from another player - old dead Marantz, Phillips, Magnavox, etc
Rotels use 2 springs (1 each side) but others often only 1 - either works okay - while you have the clamp off, add some dampening "goo" to underside between plastic ribs - gives better base - simple, eh!
The oversampling chip (7220) can be "gone around" to make player NOS - sounds much better - that chip sucks power, is quite dirty on the p/supply lines and degrades the sound - look it up, plenty info, 3 cut tracks and 3 wire links (maybe 5, actually).
Another easy mod is to replace the 7 caps on each side of the 1541A chip with very good PP ones - can stand them vertically, plenty of room, 6 of them are 0.1uF and the last one can be 1uf - look up the EC Design site and see how he does it on the pcbs.
This player will probably take directly to the Pass D1 o/p stage that is currently going thru a bit of a revival - see "Steenoe" for info as he's adding the Toole power supplies to his - I'm a bit lazy and just use "Teddy-regs" for the supplies to replace the 3 pin regs.
Suggest have a look at the axial cap underneath the pcb at the front under the mech, and while your there, add a cap across the drive motor pins, on the pcb.
It's quite easy to make these players into rather good ones, with a sound that you don't find today outside of the expensive audiophile range.
You can get similar results with the players that used the PCM63 chip, run 16 Meg and Sony mechs - or build your own - some kits around. |
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| stoolpigeon |
S.Spielbergo, I have a Proton, not sure which model, but using TDA1541 and everything works except the display.
I bought it for parts but can you tell me about your display problem and how you fixed it?
It is not accessible at the moment but I remember the display did not light up at all.
thanks, sp |
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| S.Spielbergo |
| If its a 6** series piece of equipment then the display should be similar to mine. There is a large LCD panel with a dish on the backside, underneath is a conentional automotive style mini bulb which just pops out. If its not the bulb there is a small pc board on top of the display that has some caps, resistors and a large driver IC, one of my driver leads had a lousy connection so I resoldered the connection and it has been working great ever since. BTW getting to the display requires removing the metal and plastic face plate which is held on by about a dozen tiny screws. Good luck! |
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