| duderduderini |
Hi
I am looking to upgrade myOrtofon mc20supermkII .. Idont like bright cartridges. Realising this is a purely subjective topic, I would still appreciate opinions and advice. One can look at graphs till the cows come home...
Thanks
Nick |
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| dmcgown |
| quote: | Originally posted by duderduderini
Hi
I am looking to upgrade myOrtofon mc20supermkII .. Idont like bright cartridges. Realising this is a purely subjective topic, I would still appreciate opinions and advice. One can look at graphs till the cows come home...
Thanks
Nick |
I would seriously look at the Benz line of cartridges. They are the antithesis of tipped up hyper detailed MC sound, instead focusing in on a natural midrange that gets close to the music. |
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| duderduderini |
I have read many good things re the benz cartridges.. which do you have?
Thanks
Nick |
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| dmcgown |
| quote: | Originally posted by duderduderini
I have read many good things re the benz cartridges.. which do you have?
Thanks
Nick |
I have a high output Glider, a LO Ruby, and now a LO Ruby 3. I have a friend who has a LO Ace, which he enjoys greatly, and another friend with a L2 (next step up from the Glider) which sounded better than my older Ruby at the time (before I upgraded to a Ruby 3). Also, I have another friend who has a Cardas Heart and Carnegie One, both made by Benz. They all are similar in their characteristics, only increased resolution, better tracking, and lower groove noise as one moves up the line.
David |
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| gary f |
Benz carts seems interresting, but I would never buy a 500$ cartridge from a company that does not even have a webiste.
Edit: I'm not really serious.
By the way, i'm using a Denon DL-103 and love it. As good as a Kontrapunkt A in my system. |
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| analog_sa |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmcgown
I have a friend
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I have a friend who never listened to his Glider again after buying a DL-103 :) |
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| duderduderini |
Hi Fi world describe the dl103 as quite bright?.. This is the trouble isnt it.. the expense of MC and the experimentation required to find the sound one loves.
I have noted a harshness in the mc20 in trumpets, upper register vocals etc... no matter what i try it wont go away. I have also read some mc's have resonances/ peaks that cant be modified.
I may have to go to melbourne and see if there are any hi fi shops with set up decks with a few differing carts on them.. but i dont fancy my chances..
essentially i want an mc which has a flat or slightly falling frequency response not the other way as i have often seen.
Thanks |
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| Conrad Hoffman |
| IMO, your Ortofon is no slouch. Maybe work on the loading and the rest of the system until it sounds right. There's also the issue of the tonearm and the resonant frequency with a particular cartridge. Finally, don't forget alignment- have you got a decent tool for that? I think a lot of things that get blamed on cartridges are really system issues because that cartridge is relying on a host of both electrical and mechanical factors to work correctly. |
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| duderduderini |
Hi Conrad
I have a thorens td125 mk2.. rega 300b arm. I have the ortofon aligner as well as one called the Once setup guide... I have tried everything i can think of... the only thing maybe is that b+ to the 6sl7/sn7 phono amp is too low by maybe 70V dc... I am scratching my head at this point....
Will keep ploddng
The ortofon i have is old and i was looking to get something else anyways. I am not specifically blaming it but was feeling the pond as to what cartridges are percieved to be smooth and natural...
It seems these days some mc's are to much one way or another for that showroom audition
Nick |
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| audio-kraut |
| quote: | | By the way, i'm using a Denon DL-103 and love it. As good as a Kontrapunkt A in my system. |
I use a denon dl 103 as well - I do not know where this idiotic notion of brightness comes from - it is not borne out by the facts.
I tested it with pinknoise from a test lp (one by floyd toole) and found the reproduction as linear as it gets from 20 Hz to 20 kHz - and with tracking ability of up to +12db testsignal.
I sold both my MM shure ultra 500 as well as the V15V xmr.
I run mine on a td 125 with an mg 1 airbearing arm, as well as on a transcriptor with an sme 3009. |
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| duderduderini |
Of what i read in the hi fi mags.. the 103 polarises people more than the linn sondek does.. Hi fi world dont like it so much but describe it as a forward sounding cart as far as i can recollect. The fact that its still in production would indicate it isnt a dud. But the ruler flat response is very valuable indeed.
Then there's the 103 r...
Nick |
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| AMV8 |
Hi duderduderini
I have used the ortofon cartridge for a while and like it. I found that the rega 300 did not get the best from the cartridge. I got better results with the hadcock arm but got the best results with the townshend Excaliber arm.
Don |
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| Conrad Hoffman |
| Understand that I haven't fooled with cartridges in a number of years, but does it respond to loading changes? You can't hurt anything with loads between zero and infinite ohms, so don't tie yourself to preconceived notions about "correct". Same thing with capacitance, and be sure any loading caps are top notch. IMO, the effects of interconnects on the rest of the system are subtle, no matter how people describe them, but the miniscule signal from a MC cartridge needs the best handling of any signal in the system. It seems that's where you can get the most bang for the buck with the best wire and dielectrics. I'm just getting intrigued by diy tonearms and turntables. The best materials may not be those thought commercially acceptable by traditional manufacturers, and we have some things now that weren't previously available, so there's a world of opportunity and experimentation possible down that road. |
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| AMV8 |
Hi
I agree with you Conrad. In rebuilding my audio system I have found that the rega arm was not as good as I first thought. I also found that improving the wire between the cartridge and phone amp and playing with the cartridge loading using better components made a massive difference.
I think your cartridge is worth trying with a different arm and with different settings and better components. I also have a benz micro glider, a couple of audio technicas ( for easy listening )and a few garrott deccas( for when I want to hear the truth). Your cartridge compares well with any of the above.
Don |
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| EC8010 |
| quote: | Originally posted by duderduderini
I am looking to upgrade my Ortofon MC20 Super mkII. I don't like bright cartridges. |
I'll take you literally and suggest how to upgrade the cartridge at minimum expense. Remove the outer body and add a wedge of balsa (buy it at a model shop). It makes it a wonderful cartridge.
The body is secured by two screws. Undo them, then slide the body forwards without fuggering the cantilever. When I did this there were some unnerving cracking noises as glue bonds snapped. You will then have a naked cartridge with a dirty great magnet supported at one end only. It rings at HF because of the mass of the magnet on its support. Cut a wedge of balsa wood to squeeze into the gap between the magnet and the top plate of the cartridge. Rebalance the arm and settle back to a deeply satisfying sound. |
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| duderduderini |
Hi Guys
I have tried loading from 30 ohms to about 100 ohms.. I thought the higher one went, the brighter the mc would get... so i will try this say a pot say 50k lin....and see what happens.
Given the fact that most mc carts are "naked" i probably try EC's suggestion.. what does removing the cover do?
Thanks
Nick |
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| SY |
| It gets rid of a resonant cavity and allows bracing of the magnets. There used to be a similar mod on the Sumiko carts, which Sumiko then adopted as a model change. |
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| EC8010 |
| quote: | Originally posted by duderduderini
... what does removing the cover do? |
Well, first, it frightens the willies out of you (those horrible cracking noises). Then, if you've managed not to break the wires or fugger the cantilever, it further frightens you because the cantilever is horribly exposed. On the other hand, aligning the arm/cartridge for minimised geometric errors is ever so easy and the reduced cartridge mass makes a 10Hz arm/cartridge resonant frequency easily achievable.
It's like the difference between open baffles and box loudspeakers. Corny, but true. |
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| duderduderini |
Hi EC
I didnt mean destroying the sound but the cart!!! Souinds scary but if you say it inmproves the sound i will do it. Can you tell me where the screws are and what else i need to worry about?
Thanks
Nick
ps got any ideas about the value of loading and or capacitance i should try?
Thanks |
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| EC8010 |
The screws are those brass slotted things either side... The body slides off in a line along the axis of the cantilever.
I can't remember what loading I used, but it would have been highish resistance and lowish capacitance. |
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| duderduderini |
Hi Ec
I red yoor othur post re spellink and grammer and promis two trie hardur... I can undertsand what you are frustrated by. It seems that the english langauge is spoken better by those who have it as a second language.
I will mod my ortofon this weekend... Can you remember the R value for loading? Is it correct to assume that increasing R will make the cartridge brighter (as in treble peak?). What would you suggest for Capacitance loading.. I have tried 100pF with no audible difference.
Thanks
Nick |
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| EC8010 |
I doubt if 100pF will have any effect on a source impedance of <10 Ohms; 1nF might do something. Do bear in mind that playing with electrical loading has more effect on a generator with significant resistance and inductance (moving magnet cartridge) than a moving coil. I've always found that mechanical changes are more effective. I once had a Decca Gold that was a bit spitty, but it turned out to be more the fault of the arm and damping the arm tube with a little insulating tape tamed the problem. Likewise, heatshrink sleeving on fingerlifts can be useful.
You are absolutely right; people speaking English as a second language were taught the rules of grammar and spik it bettre than what we do. |
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| audio-kraut |
| quote: | | people speaking English as a second language were taught the rules of grammar |
didn't know there were any..
When it comes to loading: I had converted a stanton 310B with a 50 kohm pot (stepped) so I could easily change the preloading for MC cartidges. Measured resistance for each step and made a table.
Except for changing levels of output I could not hear any quality difference of the sonics. Below 100ohm there was big distortion, the best setting - output at max - was about 150 ohms. |
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| Panicos K |
| duderduderini try for the sake of experience removing all input capacitance from your phono stage,you might not want to put it back again.It is said that MC's are not so sensitive to capacitance as mm's.Personally I've removed input caps from the phono stage I was using then.The result was a less compressed and hard hf sound.One of the cartridges I was using at that time was ortofon MC20supermkII.You have nothing to loose.Input load was around 100 ohms. |
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| audiobomber |
| quote: | Originally posted by duderduderini
I have noted a harshness in the mc20 in trumpets, upper register vocals etc... no matter what i try it wont go away. |
| quote: | Originally posted by duderduderini
The ortofon i have is old and i was looking to get something else anyways. |
As soon as I read your description of the sound, I suspected your cartridge might be getting old. If the stylus is still OK, then I suspect the suspension has dried out.
| quote: | Originally posted by duderduderini
ps got any ideas about the value of loading and or capacitance i should try?
Thanks |
I don't believe in playing around with different loadings. The manufacturer specs an optimum load for his cartridge. Why second guess the manufacturer? If the cartridge doesn't sound right, I say leave the loading alone and look elsewhere (alignment, VTA, cartridge wear, etc). |
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| duderduderini |
I suspect you might be right re the age of the cartridge.... i had a good look at the cantilever and it does seem to sit to one side wrt to the long axis of the cartridge body.....
Panikos.. when you say remove all capacitance from the input stage you mean all capacitance in parallel (to ground)?
Thanks to all for help
Regards
Nick |
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| Panicos K |
duderduderini,yes remove the input caps(signal to ground and give it a listen.It may at first sound a bit strange,or diferent than you are used to,so be patient.In the end I think you will appreciate the lack of compression and hardness.Besides,if it is for a little capacitance we are after,all modern arm cables offer it.To my opinion,a moving coil cartridge is much more sensitive to load impedance than capacitance.And for the ortofon you may go lower than 100 ohms(try around 50-60 ohms if you can).Try one thing at a time so that you come to more accurate conclusions.
Regards |
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