| Tino |
...why my beloved SA-3 amp which to me sounds very good, just sounds a touch more lifeless and less detailed than my T-amp which I purchased more as a joke to see what its all about after all the hype. I really wanted to hate it...crappy plastic thing but it sounds good. Really good. A bit bass shy vs my SA-3 but better everywhere else by a small margin.
Now my system is modest so maybe that has something to do with it. My source is a Squeezebox which is playing files ripped from my original CD's using Exact Audio Copy (EAC) and encoded in FLAC lossless codec. Preamp is an older rotel unit which to me actually sounds pretty good (tried swapping it with an adcom unit as well as an older bryston one 0.5 someting or other).
My speakers right now are a set of old Celestion DL8. ...so back to my amp. Is it possible that at lower to moderate volumes, this little plastic amp can sound as good as my older but wonderful SA-3 and maybe even better? One thing to note, when using the T-amp, since its essentially an integrated amp, I dont use the rotel. I feed the amp directly with the squeezebox. I have tried the rotel in the chain but I couldnt tell if anything sounded any different so I left it out. BTW the listening room is only a 9x11 room so its quite small. Maybe thats why I can get away with such a low wattage amp and have it sound good??
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| Stefanoo |
it's obvious!
Your stereo chain is not the best on air...i'm sorry to say that!
A good amplifier reveals the imperfections of your equipment.
Moreover by getting past the fact that you don't have a decent source, and that your speakers are old but your pre-power amp interfaced is really bad.
That power amp needs a good preamplifier.
Therefore it's truly possible that a plastic T-amp would sound better than a monster like the SA-3 over this condition.
I suggest you to plug the two of them on a goon stereo chain (with good cd player or even better a good turntable, nce pre and speakers and good cables and supports) and see if you have the same impression!
Sorry to have been so hard with my reply...
:cool: |
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| Tino |
Thanks for the reply :) Ok I get what you're saying but the problem is that the little plastic amp is using the same source too. The only thing that is different is the setup between the two is the preamp but note that I did try using the preamp with the small T-amp as well and it did not in any way degrade the sound...IMO it was still slightly more open and detailed than my SA3.
The only thing I wonder is if its possible that because the T-amp is a bit more bass shy, it gives the illusion of being more detailed. Thats also possible but I have no way of trying that.
regarding the speakers...not sure but what does the age have anything to do with the sound? I know one things for sure, I preferred them over the Axiom's they replaced :) (I know they are not high end but are supposed to sound pretty good). I found the axioms too bright and forward and sometimes people sounded like they even had a slight lisp. LOL
The squeezebox is actually quite a decent source...at least as good as a mid-level CD player such as a NAD or something like that. I'm definitly not into vinyl and as far as digital sources go such as CD players, I'd say this one is not a bad alternative to a CD player. Once I get an outboard DAC it will be even better :) |
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| Stefanoo |
i wasn't enough clear.
If you are using a low quality chain and you introduce an high quality part the end of the result might be worse than if you were using a T-am or adequate componet for your chain.
The negative aspects could be highlited from the sa and hiden from the T-amp.
If you have a ferrari and you use small and old tires you won't have the control and you will probabily loose the control of the car and the drivability will be horrible.
Viceversa if you are using a small city car with an engine of a ferrari ....ehehehe you will distroy the car at the first turn....ehehe!!
The same concept can be applied to your case!!
The only way to find out...and it's not always easy to prove anyways...is to use an high quality audio chain and in this way you will probabily be able to catch the sonical differences in between the two of them!!
Tell me if for some reasons i wasn't clear.
Stefano. |
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| Tino |
See the problem is that the little amp doesnt sound better because its more warm or friendly but because it sounds like even more detail is coming through. If the Threshold I have was more detailed, then it should pass through the harshness and thus revealing it. It sounds like more stuff is being revealed with the T-amp.
anyway I'm going to go back to listening to the two amps. This time I'll bypass the preamp and use the volume control on the Squeezebox as the preamp...so it will be Squeezebox -->Threshold -->Speakers. |
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| Stefanoo |
boooohhh.... i don't know how else i could explain it....
anyways....enjoy your listening....
:cool: |
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| Tino |
I definitly am enjoying it. I think I'll do the mod that extends the bass as it rolls off a bit early the way it comes (t-amp that is).
Also I'm not the only one thats noticed the very high quality sound of this little thing. Read this review :) I'm pretty confident in what I've heard so far...
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1148777
Time for modding soon... |
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| Giaime |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tino
See the problem is that the little amp doesnt sound better because its more warm or friendly but because it sounds like even more detail is coming through. |
Did you ever see the frequency response of that plastic thing? I'm not surprised that you hear more details, in fact I tried it myself.
http://www.michael.mardis.com/sonic.../5066-freq.html
PS if you decide to trash the Threshold, I'll pay the shipping :D |
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| Tino |
Well if you read the graph, you'll see the steep slope upwards is for an amp with no load. At most with a load, the bump between 20 and 25K seems to be 1.5db on loads > 6ohms. The slight slope downward would assumingly be on a 4ohm load which is the min the amp can take.
So looking at that, I wouldnt say its a huge bump being 1.5db for a 6 or 8 ohm load and that bump is above the threshold of human hearing. I certainly cant hear much above 16-17K anymore.
Also if I did ever get rid of my threshold, it would be me selling it :) |
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| Stefanoo |
well....i guess....that the graph here is clear.
The frequency response is no flat at all.
That's why you might here somethig that you don't hear with your thereshold.
But, is that what a real instrument would sound like?
...never mind ... i don't want to open this infinite subject :) .....
As i stated above, not to repeat my self thought, but, If you would plug in that thing on a neutral and high end stereo chain you would be able to discover its real sound or lack thereof!!! :cool:
Be carefull, build up and tune up your ears and by the time you will get more experienced on audio equipment listening (which is a job on itself therefore doen't need to be underevalueted at all!!!), you'll be able to easily discern from a nice thing like the thresold and a piece of ccrr..... like t-amp.... believe me.....it doesn't take that much!
I'm not talking here of knowledge on circuit design...not talking of knowlege of equipment misurements......just talking about correct and fair listening though!
have fun with your listening!! |
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| GRollins |
There are several problems here.
--One is the assumption that human hearing hits a brick wall at some arbitrary frequency. Fortunately, that's not the case. Decreasing sensitivity is not the same as a complete loss of hearing.
--Hearing is a more complex process than simple sine wave perception. Waveforms are exceedingly important. If you want to do some homework on this, look up the Fourier analysis of square waves, triangle waves, sawtooth waves, etc. then spend some time contemplating how they might relate to, for instance, a saxophone.
--As a corollary, it's not particularly difficult to demonstrate that listeners can hear changes in frequency response up into the 30-50kHz range (I've seen reports of careful listeners able to tell differences up to 75kHz). Note that this is not the same as saying they can hear sine waves at those frequencies; they hear the changes in waveforms.
(And people wonder why I advocate such wide bandwidths...)
--It has long been known that even slight (tenths of decibels or even less) rises in the 5-10kHz range are perceived as "detail." All that is necessary to burst this particular fantasy is to listen to real music in a real room with no PA. In real life, fingers just don't make that much noise on guitar strings. It's not "detail"...it's a graphic equalizer.
It's bad enough that we have to tolerate speakers with +-3dB frequency response--there's no reason to tolerate an amplifier with the response this thing has. Tube circuits do better (my main R&D tube amp goes well over 100kHz). Solid state circuits do better (it's trivial to get 100kHz out of a solid state amp). Even car amplifers do better...and that's pretty sad.
Grey |
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| Tino |
If you can show any concrete test done to show people being able to detect 50Khz and up, I'd love to see a link or document :)
Anyway I did a lot of listening last night, switching between the amps, taking breaks then coming back..etc. I dont think the little plastic amp sounds better anymore. Its pleasing and sounds nice but the sound is different more than anything. I find it being a bit more inconsistent and the sound quality seems to vary depending on the material being played. Also its slightly bass shy so the lack of bass might make it seem like its got a midrange thats more present but I think if the listening room was a bit larger, then I'd probably find it sounding a bit too thin. Still all in all, its a great sounding little amp but I think I'm sticking with my Threshold. One thing thats for sure is that its more silent. The threshold has a very small amount of background noise if you put your ear very close to the speakers......
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| lumanauw |
Hi, Tino,
This is not about comparison between your two amps, and this is not the reason why you have comparison results like you wrote, but about what frequencies above 20khz can affect sound. I believe your comparison results is caused by other factor(s), not by what I wrote below.
Once I found out that my experimental amp oscilates (slightly) at 25Mhz (not Khz :D). Then I eliminate the oscilation and it turns out the sound reproduction that I hear is different.
Another time I test myself with frequency sweep. It turns out I can only hear up to 18khz, and 19khz-20khz are disappearing from my hearing.
So why I hear different reproduction when the amp oscilates at so high frequency. It turns out it is not because I can hear 25Mhz, but it is caused by intermodulation problem. The 25Mhz signal is "riding" the audio signals below 20khz. It makes new frequencies (from add and substraction of frequencies) that is not in the original music signal. That's why I can perceive different sound reproduction. Also, that's why we need to pay attention to what happens <20hz and >20khz, not because we can hear them, but because they will affect the sound. |
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| Tino |
| Hmm interesting. I wouldnt have thought such high frequencies would have altered the sound reproduction at much lower frequencies. Interesting. I have to look into this :) |
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| GRollins |
The 20Hz to 20kHz limits to human hearing are pretty simplistic. The reality is far, far more complex.
I used to keep URLs to places that had information like that. Three disk crashes later, that file is long gone. Silly me, I pretty much assumed that--if not everyone--then most people were aware of such things.
Google James Boyk. Seems to me that he had some information along those lines. I think he is a pianist, but I recall the theoretical work as being oriented towards brass instruments. There will be other things if you search.
Grey |
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