| mashaffer |
I was thinking that it would be nice if a tube newbie had a comprehensive list of useful tubes that one could use when dumpster diving and skulking about the yard sales in search of bargins. There is a lot of information out there but I have yet to find a nice printable skulker's guide. I envision a list with one line per device listing
- American Designation
- European Designation
- Russian Designation
- Type
- Original Purpose
- Possible Uses
- Strengths
- Contraindications
If anyone knows of such a list I would be interested. Otherwise I propose that I make an email address available for a period of time to which people can send their suggested entries which I would compile into a list for peer review. My intent would be to post here and a couple of other boards with heavy concentrations of knowlegable tubeophiles.
What do you think of my proposal?
mike |
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| kevinkr |
I think this would be a useful idea, and would suggest people post them here, and you could edit/collate them into a useful list.
Even better would be to take the list and put together something like "Promising tubes for Audio Apps" or whatever.. ;)
My little list would include:
6SN7/6N8C Description highly linear, medium mu, low rp, dual triode, octal base often used as a driver
6SL7/6N9C Description highly linear, high mu, medium rp, dual triode, octal base suitable for input stages, phono pre-amps.
Etc.
Many types not commonly considered for audio probably ought to make the list. Obviously all commonly used tubes, and any exotic types should be included. As a tube newbie about 20yrs ago I passed up on something like 15 NIB!!! WE300B 1950's date codes for a set of 16 6AS7GA also from the 1950's. The cost for those 300B - $3.00 each..:cannotbe: Had I known what I know now I would have snapped them up.. I never used the 6AS7GA, (I was thinking OTL amp) and today I have two sets of amps that use 300Bs... This is an experience nobody wants to have.. :D
If you are looking for additional recommendations I would be happy to make a few, I just didn't want to clutter up your thread with recommendations if putting them here is not something you wanted to do. |
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| mashaffer |
Thanks for the reply. My intent is to put the list in a spreadsheet for easy sorting and maintenance. I have an email already setup and if interest seems to be high I will post it in disguised form. The email would have the advantage of not using up server storage here. I could post periodic updates for comment.
The list would be compiled and maintained in an as time allows fashion.
mike |
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| mashaffer |
BTW keep in mind applications where linearity is not necessarily the prime factor (e.g. guitar amps, effects, CCS etc).
mike |
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| kevinkr |
I'd certainly go ahead and post the disguised email address, I think the usefulness of this idea is a no brainer, and I would be delighted to send along a list. Being the week-end and all it might take a couple of days for this thread to catch on.
I would find such a list in phamplet form to be quite useful, something hopefully that could fit in a pocket. |
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| dsavitsk |
I used to deal in used cameras, and the same thing is an issue there. There are cameras where two different models may only vary by a single letter (and look almost the same) yet one is worth a fortune and one isn't - and you usually find the one that isn't valuable.
It seems like a good idea, but I think the list would simply be too long. I recently was given a bunch of tubes, and there must be 50 types I had never heard of, but that turn out to be useful - 5879, 5963, 6201, 6ak5, ... etc.
Moreover, there are some really misleading things in there too -- Amperex, Made in West Germany, 6dj8's that turn out to be Tungsram -- not terrible, but not as exciting as they seemed.
You could certainly make a list that says 6sn7, 6sl7, 300b, 6dj8, but beyond that, it is either going to get really long and become a book full of minutia, or it is only going to be useful in really rare cases. I don't think there is a substitute for experience here. |
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| mashaffer |
mikes tube list (no spaces) at maplenet little period thingy net.
mike |
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| andrew_whitham |
Just my kind of topic. :) - If I can suggest that this 'uber list' might give some indication of what the particular tube was useful for,
for instance you might want a pre-amp tube > look "here" or a power tube > look "here"
For sure it's a long list, but useful,
my 2cents are:
5703WA - sub mini thing AKA the trivistor
5977 - sub-mini triode
6397 - pentode but linear as a triode
EC91 - lots and LOTS of gain
6AT6 - 7 pin triode with 2 diodes
EL37 - £$€
Fact is that some tubes just aren't a lot of use. (what possesed me when I was buying the 1AD4 for instance :bigeyes: )
KevinKR I sympathise I also passed up valuable tubes, NOS Mulard E88CC, for free, I could cry
Andy |
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| mashaffer |
Though one could sort according to uses sorting by designation seems the most helpful for my initial intent since when you are looking at a chassis or box of tubes it is the designation that you have right there on the tube.
mike |
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| kstagger |
I'll add some DIY favorites of mine
small signal tubes:
EF86/6267 - classic small Euro pentode
PF86 - 4.5V filament version of the EF86
6J32P - Russian version of the EF86
EF40 - B8A base - EF86 equivalent
E80F - another audio pentode, not to be confused with the EF80
C3m - german post tube - pentode
C3o - ""
C3g - ""
5687/7044/7119 - high current driver tubes
6N6P - Russian goodie
6N1P - ""
6N2P - 6V version of the 12AX7
Power Tubes :
EL38 - 25W power pentode / 8W screen - has a top cap
12E1/CV345 - beam tetrode
13E1 - what a beast - beam tetrode
807 - the grandaddy
1625 - 12V filament version of the 807 |
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| mashaffer |
Thanks for the input guys. Keep em coming. Please be verbose concerning what you like and dislike about each tube.
mike |
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| HollowState |
Some less then popular types I like.
Power:
1623 triode. A low mu version of 809 or lower Vp & Rp 812.
6394 dual triode. A 26V/1.25A version of 6336A & easy to light several.
VT52 triode. A special 45 on steroids.
6CK4 octal base triode. A nice driver or lower power output.
Medium & Small signal:
8233/E55L pentode. Very high mu even in triode mode and quite similar to WE437A.
10 watt plate and high current makes for a great driver. Requires special 9 pin socket.
7788/E810F pentode. A smaller version of above. Very low noise & high gain.
Series pass regulator & control triodes in one envelope:
6EW7
6FD7
6FM7
6GF7
6LR8
6LU8 |
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| ilimzn |
If I may offer a suggestion:
There are many versions of basically the same tube, different bases, different heater voltages, halves of dual triodes, suals of single triodes etc. At the risk of causing an extra peak in eBay prices :) i think it should be prudent to sort of bunch together all tubes of the same family under a single list heading (perhaps with footnotes for subtypes). A notorious example: 6DJ8, ECC88, E88CC, 6922, CCa, PCC88. One might also add a 'similar to' column to the list. |
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| richwalters |
I use quite alot and away from exotic types.. staying with INT octals #B9 #B7 sockets. My favourite is UX4 for 807.
I dislike those white ceramic sockets made in FE. They are mechanically too sloppy and silvering isn’t necessary. Some composite plastic types are far too stiff for fat NOS pins..risking damaging and cracking around tube pins The NOS old phenol McMurdo or Amphenol were by far the best.
Looking ahead to the future designs.. I’m staying with 6.3 Volt heaters and my preferred selection for audio.....
KT88... Expensive RR- I use’em only when absolutely necessary.....in most cases I use 6550 series for all modest voltages with long life. Most 6550‘s perform with lower o/p stage thd than KT88‘s. I think the Ra is often lower than it really is, i.e a better o/p tranny match....
EL34 MI.....bit dull sounding for HiFi, good LoZ in parallel pairs. Someone always making them.
807 MI ....Best config in tetrode for my trumpet and other brass.. Nice raspy when overdriven.
6L6/5881 octal brother to 807. Prefer 5881.That extra MI bit.
6SN7....Best med mu pre-amp driver around.
6SL7.....Good sounding octal oldie low noise preamp.
12BY7A.....TV video /HAM driver....the best tube small power pent ever made.. good gain as AF triode excellent attack....... brilliant bandwidth. Glows impressive in dark. On performance, I rate this tube 10/10 but like the EF184 also sim for lower powers it will eventually get scarcer and dearer.
ECL82 # 6BM8....budget power driver....consistent performer.....low gain as power triode...slopes bit curvy.
ECC83...Use as cathode follower and MI preamp. There will always be a market for this.
ECC88...My favourite preamp LoZ cathode follower for parafeed.. Lots variants about.
OA regulator series. Bomb and spike proof. Bit noisy. Relatively cheap Loads about..
EF86 despite being out production....why ? best as triode.
7199 was my favourite in 1960‘s but now getting scarce & overpriced. Some versions sound dull. I’m now using ECF series ..best substitute triode/ pent for concertina p/slitt. Fraction priced. Non cutoff types sound better for digital music bandwidths..Can be microphonic and some designs require careful layout.
The bad ones:
The whole darned high voltage power triode group. I hate'em.. Far to pricy for performance.
KT90 Bad idea...clay pigeon target ....Bin-it. Unreliable.
ECC82 Isn’t popular with me... sounds dull. Ok as non fussy analogue use. Alot of computer tubes sim to this about.....
What about good and bad transformer manufacturers ? |
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| kstagger |
| quote: | Originally posted by richwalters
EF86 despite being out production....why ? best as triode.
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I thought I would just add that EH currently makes an EF86 - it looks like a vintage silver Telefunken. As far as sound goes (connected as triode) it sounds a little 'black n' white' but is very detailed in an 'audiophile' way. JJ has also come out with a new EF806 that I haven't heard yet. Obviously both of these tubes are targeted for the guitar market.
The 'old' Svetlana EF86 sounded a bit bright to my ears and so far I'm preferring the vintage stuff. |
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| kevinkr |
Here are a couple of my choices since others are posting here and I have not had as much time to think through a list and email it.. ;)
D3A/7721: This is a very high transconductance pentode with excellent linearity in triode connection where the mu is about 77, transconductance about 30 - 40 Siemens, Rp 1.9K and the internal noise resistance is about 65 ohms making it extraordinarily quiet. Typically run at 10 - 20mA at less than 200V on the plate. Most were made by Siemens/Haske and these were also sold under the Telefunken label. Excellent for input stages in phono pre-amps. Even in pentode mode this is a very quiet tube with an equivalent internal noise resistance of just 150 ohms. Other uses include dht drivers, and spud amps.
5842/417A: This is a moderate mu (40 - 43 depending on vendor) high transconductance triode. Also very quiet, transconductance around 25 Siemens, Rp around 1.7K. Typically run at 10 - 20mA at less than 200V on the plate. (Do not exceed 200V in normal operation.) Suitable for use in phono stages, driver stages, and spud amps.
5651: Gas reference based on neon gas. very stable operates around 3mA and provides a very stable reference voltage in the range of 86V-88V. Virtually no tempco, holds initial voltage. Good zener replacement in active tube based regulators.
6BY5G/GA: Dual damper diode suitable for small amps, low impedance, long warm up delay, separate rectifiers can be used for doubler service or conventional center tapped fullwave. Operates on 6.3V filament and filament insulation good to about 450V. Economizes on filament windings.
171/71A: Low mu 5V/250mA dht power triode, mu 3, transconductance about 1.5 Siemens, Rp about 1.9K, plate voltage up to 180V. 500mW- 700mW out into 5K, ideal headphone amplifier tube. Inspect filament alignment relative to grid. (short potential) |
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| Zibi |
| kevinkr : russian 6H8C=6N8S, 6H9C=6N9S, not 6N8C and 6N9C |
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| kevinkr |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zibi
kevinkr : russian 6H8C=6N8S, 6H9C=6N9S, not 6N8C and 6N9C |
I'll make a note of it, I can't keep this straight anyway so I had quoted the numbers from another site - obviously one that suffers from the same problem I do.. :D |
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| richwalters |
| quote: | [i]
D3A/7721: This is a very high transconductance pentode with excellent linearity in triode connection where the mu is about 77, transconductance about 30 - 40 Siemens, Rp 1.9K and the internal noise resistance is about 65 ohms making it extraordinarily quiet. Typically run at 10 - 20mA at less than 200V on the plate. Most were made by Siemens/Haske and these were also sold under the Telefunken label. Excellent for input stages in phono pre-amps. Even in pentode mode this is a very quiet tube with an equivalent internal noise resistance of just 150 ohms. Other uses include dht drivers, and spud amps.
[/B] |
Relooking at the 12BY7 spec,.....this video RF tube posesses descaled similarities although I'd admit I destroyed a pair of 7721's due to recklessness with g1. These high transconductance tubes like 12BY7A are brilliant to work with but one needs to be careful.
richj |
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| Jim McShane |
| quote: | Originally posted by kstagger
I thought I would just add that EH currently makes an EF86 - it looks like a vintage silver Telefunken. As far as sound goes (connected as triode) it sounds a little 'black n' white' but is very detailed in an 'audiophile' way. JJ has also come out with a new EF806 that I haven't heard yet. Obviously both of these tubes are targeted for the guitar market.
The 'old' Svetlana EF86 sounded a bit bright to my ears and so far I'm preferring the vintage stuff. |
There is the EH and there are two tubes in the Tung-Sol reissue line, an EF86 and an EF806.
Before you ask, I don't know what they sound like, sorry. But the few reports I've seen have been quite good. |
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| Jim McShane |
| quote: | Originally posted by richwalters
The bad ones:
KT90 Bad idea...clay pigeon target ....Bin-it. Unreliable. |
This is a bit of a moot point as the supply is gone, but did you ever hear a properly made KT-90 Ei tube? I think the Ei KT-90 type II is the finest sounding power pentode or beamie ever made. But after the NATO action in the Balkans the tube quality at Ei dropped way off. Virtually every KT-90 made after that had misaligned screens.
And FYI, back when the tube was available you would get people who just raved about the tube, or you'd get people that just thought it was awful. I found a couple things about the "hate 'em" crowd that might be of interest...
1. They ran them too cool. They'd bias them at 40-50 ma with a 450-ish volt power supply. That's far too cool.
2. They seemed to prefer the "warm" tubes. The lack of any top end energy was seen as a virtue by this group, so the extended top end of the KT-90 was often described as "harsh".
If it was me and I was lucky enough to have a chance to obtain type II or pre-NATO intervention type III EIs I'd grab them and never let go. They are particularly wonderful in triode BTW. :) |
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| kevinkr |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jim McShane
This is a bit of a moot point as the supply is gone, but did you ever hear a properly made KT-90 Ei tube? I think the Ei KT-90 type II is the finest sounding power pentode or beamie ever made. But after the NATO action in the Balkans the tube quality at Ei dropped way off. Virtually every KT-90 made after that had misaligned screens.
And FYI, back when the tube was available you would get people who just raved about the tube, or you'd get people that just thought it was awful. I found a couple things about the "hate 'em" crowd that might be of interest...
1. They ran them too cool. They'd bias them at 40-50 ma with a 450-ish volt power supply. That's far too cool.
2. They seemed to prefer the "warm" tubes. The lack of any top end energy was seen as a virtue by this group, so the extended top end of the KT-90 was often described as "harsh".
If it was me and I was lucky enough to have a chance to obtain type II or pre-NATO intervention type III EIs I'd grab them and never let go. They are particularly wonderful in triode BTW. :) |
I used EI KT-90 and the even earlier VTL KT-90 in my heavily modified Citation II, I thought they were about the best sounding tube I had encountered for this application, and the early ones were fairly reliable. I have a friend who still runs a Citation II based on my redesign and he absolutely swears by the EI KT-90. When I went SE I sold him my remaining stock, and afaik he is still running them - good ones are definitely long lived. |
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| 7N7 |
I have spent a lot of time fooling around with valves...
Suggestions?
6SN7 - not much to say here, a super valve but the loctal 7N7 is quite often better and cheaper and the PTFE Loctal sockets are better (low leakage) Dont forget 12SN7 and 14N7 - cheaper also
12AY7/6072. The best of the B9A dual triodes - low distortion and very linear
2C51/WE396A another good dual triode, mu = 35 or so
E282F Frame grid high quality pentode. Strapped as a triode has high gm and unusually, medium mu (28). So low Ra and very low dstortion - I tested it)
D3A - super pentode, used as a triode offers mu of 80 and gm <40. Ca-g is quoted in triode mode (2.7pf - not bad)
E810F/7788 makes a super triode when trapped; mu 60, gm <50.
WE416D A nightmare to install and run, this was the ultimate valve in many ways, with mu of 250 and gm of 65. I made curves for this, it's insane - bias with an IR LED and use a current regulated filament supply. Gold-plated all over - Exotic! Designed to run at 3GHz...
A2134 Obscure GEC 7-pin 9W Pa pentode. Makes a super triode - ideal as a driver. I used it many times in different circuits. Low Ra.
For power...
Look at the dual beam tetrode transmitting valves:
829, 832, QQVO3/20, QQVO6/40, QQVO7/50 and YL1071. The last is the best. Strap them as triodes (I have the curves). YL1071 offers 60W Pa (but really with a fan) and only 11W heater. Ra 600 ohms...
YL1150, super, but rare beam tetrode (Mullard/Amperex) 75W pa. A pair in Class AB1 offers 200W at 2% THD as beam tetrodes, would make a super triode
813 does make a super triode: but the HT is expensive (1kV). Easy to drive, and ra is like 845 - about 1800 ohms. 50W to light it up though.
13E1, another very high gm and attractive-looking beam tetrode. Designed for regulator service, has very low ra. I have tested these at 500V as triodes running 100mA and never blew one up - got hot though... I made a good amplifier with a pair. It delivered 33W with only 290V HT.
(Edit) Finally, looking for a high-current decnt pentode sink? Try EL822, a bit pricey, but has lovely curves and works (I have used it) A good alternative might be the Russian 6P15P
Loads more if you want!
Paul |
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| richwalters |
Perhaps the "wish list" needs requalifying. i.e biassed towards tubes that are still around in sufficient quantity that are worth using and not just exotic types. Try searching for the D3A or 7721 and 7199 are examples that are becoming so rare and pricy that any development work is unjustified as they will never be manufactured anymore. Can one be honest in getting an unused tube ?
Daresay the above comment applies to scores of obscure tubes manufactured that never found a home in projects. If I can't get a decent quantity of one particular type then hunt for others that can work in lieu. So that implies I'm staying with more recent versions.
If one finds a box of 50 up of a particular brand (as was in my case) in a disused cowshed then one is in xxx luck. Over 60 years the mice had the packaging well and truely sorted out..
Comments welcome.
richj |
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