| double horn, bib or angular spiral horn? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Scottmoose |
I don't know the spiral horns. Re the BIB pipe-horn the FR is nothing like as bad as it looks -most of that ripple is flattened by the room.
Onur's design is a big vent reflex box. Dave & I have done a cabient of this kind: see the Bruce enclosure on http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn.html -an update of this cabinet with an improved response & lower group delay is being drawn up at this moment (the design revisions themselves are complete) However, both for this, and Onur's, you'd be better off using the FE207E. The 206 will be happier with a long-path, higher gain design like the Sachiko cabinet also shown on the above link. |
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| OzMikeH |
I've never seen anything like the Helix before. Thanks for sharing that one.
The BIB looks better with a Fostex 207.
Unfortunately I have no direct experience with these. I have some 207 in a Singular (plans available on BD design) But I am wanting to build some of the Spawn of Frugal-horn Bruce which might also suit the Fostex 206. Another cabinet that is worth considering is the Standard Fostex cabinet for the 208 sigma.
I think you should try the Helix, that looks quite easy to build, uses very little material and does not take a lot of space. Then keep researching and build something else as well because the Helix would have been so cheap. |
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| testarossa2k |
well I already built the 208 sigma cabinet for the 206:D no words for it, every person that comes to listen is shocked, also rockers a and techno boy for the amount of bass. Beside the girl, that the listen a while and say "oh it's good" but in reality they don't care, also the music for them is or funny or boring, if it has not a drum with a lot of basses, and then the girl's ears are delicate so I can't turn up the volume too much because the highs hurts. Anyway girls in most cases has very nice body....
There's good design in that page, now I have to read everything... |
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| testarossa2k |
ok I'm very interested in Bruce and Sachiko horn.
Bruce horn is less expensive to build because it has less pieces, but it's more difficult to build because of the angle of pieces. Looking at the FR, is it more full at 100hz region thant Sachiko but it goes less down?
Sachiko have more pieces but it's easy. It has a dip around 100hz, so how il it sound?
I have fe206e in 208e sigma cabinet, and looking at FR on fostex pdf it seems to have a dip around 100hz, but in reality when you listen you have a full deep voice. The male voice at his lowest point I think goes donw to 100hz, right? so... |
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| Scottmoose |
...and these are Tuomas's stunning Bruce's, with the FE206E. He used our dimensions / plans, but (obviously) being more than just a bit good at the old woodwork, he decided to build them with curved rather than flat panels. There shouldn't be much difference in the sound (the curved ones might be a bit smoother). His comments on the build are here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...951#post1242951
Both Derek & Tuomas have done absolutely stunning jobs. There have been several other builds of both, plus the other designs, but these are the most recent.
Generally speaking, Bruce will go a touch lower, a bit more smoothly, but Sachiko has more gain, and controls the driver better, so it will go louder without distorting & have superior dynamics. A lot of the higher ripple in the response will be reduced in practice compared to the sim due to the multiple bends. We just offer a choice, and let the builder decide which suits them best. ;) |
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| testarossa2k |
With the Sachiko I read that you could use a flat panel instead of this:
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I hope you understand what I mean.....
difference in sound?
Let's talk about BIB
With the Bib the fe207e it's better suited than 206e because if the highet qts, right? But looking at the FR the two driver have the almost the same response
anyway driver with lower qts and qes, such fe206e haven't a more controlled bass?
Do you know any other 8inch driver with the same quality as fostex around the same $$? |
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| Scottmoose |
Yes, you could use an angled panel rather than build it up out of multiple layers. In fact, the angled panel is strictly closer to the original Olson inspiration for the cabinet layout.
Within reason, the BIB pipe-horn isn't espeically bothered about the driver, if you design it for the driver parameters. The 206 will work just as well as the 207.
There's the Audio Nirvana range of speakers which are a similar price to the Fostex units, but don't really offer anything the Fostex drivers don't. The Visaton B200 is a superb driver, but best suited for OB use, or stuffing in the recently revised Loreena BVR box. Other than that, there isn't much else for the same money. The little Jordan units are stunners of course, but very small, so they're limited in terms of how much air they can shift. |
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| OzMikeH |
| quote: | Originally posted by testarossa2k
With the Bib the fe207e it's better suited than 206e because if the highet qts, right? But looking at the FR the two driver have the almost the same response
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Have a closer look at the freq response of the 206 and the 207 before you buy anything. The 207 needs a helper tweeter unless your high end hearing is particularly bad. If I had my time again I'd use the 206. The 207 is useless above 12kHz, Phase plugs help a lot, bit it's still not really a "fullrange" driver. With phase plugs I suggest the surprisingly cheap FT17H with about 0.68 uF to start with. Did I mention Phase plugs? They really are mandatory.
I think the steps of the Sachiko are some of it's charm, it's a little boring without them, a plinth and top in the same style with 2-3 layers would make them more visually balanced, It's a good way to hide the wheels too! And you will need wheels if you need to move them about. |
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| Scottmoose |
| I emailed Dave about a possible tweak to Sachiko last night re the strike-plates oddly enough, which should reduce distortion in the final expansion stage. Adding an oval false driver-mounting baffle to inject a little extra visual interest might be a good move. |
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| testarossa2k |
thank you Scott, but there you are very gentle an helpfull.
| quote: | | Have a closer look at the freq response of the 206 and the 207 before you buy anything. The 207 needs a helper tweeter unless your high end hearing is particularly bad. |
no I was refering to the simulated FR of the BIB enclosure of 206e and 207e, it's almost indentical.
But yes I have to take in account that using the fe207e needs a supertweether. I was reading the raccomended enclosure by fostex and they always raccomend a tweether for any the driver. But looking at the FR of the 206e it isn't really needed. It's because they want you spend some $ for their stuff?
Anyway I did an interesting A/B comparison with my old B&W DM302 bookshelf. At first sight b&w appear and they really have a "closed" sound in comparison with fe206e, but I think, if my ear is good, that they go a little bit higher in FR, you can hear it just in some music for example in some cymbals the fe206e sound a little bit closed. The Fe206 brings you more medium frequencies. Anyway are things that can be only heard in a/b comparison and in specific circustances.
BIB vs HORN? |
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| Godzilla |
That curved speaker pic was saved into my folder of speaker designs called Inspiration. It's wonderful.
I also have a pair of B&W bookshelf speakers (model 610 something or other) that i hook up occasionally to compare to my BIB and other full range speakers. Even tho i always liked their reticent sound after spending years building my own i'd basically describe the sound of the B&W's as 'kah kah'. |
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| Scottmoose |
They are nice aren't they? When he gets around to it, Dave's drawing curved versions of the BVRs (don't hold your breath though -I've innundated him with cabinet ideas recently... ;) )
Why do Fostex recommend a tweeter with most of their large FR units? Simple: they're honest enough to acknowledge that FR is a bit of a misnomer. There is no way on God's green Earth that an 8in FR driver will do high treble as well as a good super-tweeter. They can sometimes get up there, but they don't do it with much grace, so adding one to help out with the highs is useful. It's quite a cunning ploy really: use a driver that can cover the region from an octave below to an octave above our most senstive hearing regions (see the Robinson - Dadson curve) and then add a tweeter to take some of the workload off the main unit in the upper-treble, and, if sub-bass is required, dedicated woofers to handle everything below ~40Hz. The XO points are thus pushed well outside the critically important zones, to places where our hearing naturally isn't great, and they are therefore relatively innocuous, unlike most multi-way designs, where the XO is located slap-bang in the middle of the vocal range and the discontinuity between the different drivers is usually very (painfully) obvious.
As for the BIB v. the horn; it's like comparing chalk & cheese really. They're very different. The horn is technically a far more advanced design, and if you don't have corners or a rear-wall to load the pipe-horns (BIBs) properly, then they should have the edge. They're a heavier & more complicated build though. In terms of presentation, I think you'd find that Sachiko will sound similar to the 208ESigma cabinet, but 'this one goes all the way up to 11' as they say on Spinal Tap. And then some. It'll be a (much) larger sound, with more gain, & should go a little lower. The BIB OTOH will sound like nothing you've heard before. They have a dipole-like presentation to the bass, and they go amazingly low. They sound like horns, but don't sound like horns. You'll hear a bit more ripple, though it's not as bad as the FR plots suggest, as I mentioned before. |
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| Crossblade |
Angular spiral :) nice
I have a pair of the smaller brothers :o replaced them with frugels :smash: Happy with the result :) My advice is ... "bigger is better" :D - go for a horn
| quote: | | I think you should try the Helix, that looks quite easy to build, uses very little material and does not take a lot of space. Then keep researching and build something else as well because the Helix would have been so cheap. |
Very good advise! |
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| testarossa2k |
| quote: | | , but 'this one goes all the way up to 11' as they say on Spinal Tap |
what do you mean? Spinal Tap is the metal Band?
I have corner to load the BIB and the room is very "gainy" because it has wood floor and it isn't very furnished, and it has some echos. BIB has full deep voices as horn? the fe206e is suited of BIB and don't need any filter circuit?
With Sachiko horn I should have planty of bass to, because having two mouth you have one mouth near your ears, right?
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| testarossa2k |
ah fantastic. it goes to eleven.
But how is it important for the music to go to 20/30hz, for my experience it isn't very important because the real bass of music is all around 50-100hz. Under this there just the movie effect. Am I right? |
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| Scottmoose |
| Generally you're quite right, there isn't a great deal of action below about 40Hz, unless you're into organ music. There are sometimes LF effects -the 25Hz heartbeats in DSOTM for example, and some sweeping keyboard / synth effects in progressive rock. Yes & King Crimson used this a bit. Otherwise, it's more a home cinema thing. Either way, such things are best left to dedicated woofers IMO. A couple of the new 15in CSS Subduction drivers in tapped horns would suit me very nicely. Can you tell I'm a bit of a prog. rocker at heart? :D |
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| testarossa2k |
The Sachiko horn should be better than 208e sigma cabinet?
The BIB goes deeper, but it has the same "fast" and controlled bass?
thank you |
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| Scottmoose |
As I said before, it's chalk & cheese -you can't really compare them because they are so different. Pipe horns like the BIB don't sound anything like the Fostex cabinet. You'll get very deep, taught bass from it, with inherently low distortion, but with far less directionality -they have a real dipole flavour to the LF.
Sachiko will have a similar presentation to the Fostex cabinet, but considerably larger & more efficient. I'd probably prefer that, but whether you would or not, only you can say! |
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| testarossa2k |
I decided to do the Sachiko for the fantastic look and because if it's a little better than 208e sigma cabinet is fantastic...
The cut list, is correct? or am I missing something?
A 2 298x298
B 2 298x102
C 2 298x273
D 2 298x368
E 2 298x330
F 2 298x152
G 2 298x127
h 2 298x241
baffle 1 298x 1029
Def1 2 298x264
Def2 2 298x221
Def3 2 298x179
Def4 2 298x136
Def5 2 298x93
Def6 2 298x50
Back 1 298x1791
Top/Bottom 2 298x457
Sides 2 457x1829
One thing I don't understand is the panel A. It should touch the driver magnet with a tongue?
Look at attachment, what is tht thing( indicated by me with a black arrow)
thank you |
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| Scottmoose |
Panel A has the option of extentions to brace the rear of the magnet if you feel so inclined but it's not critical, just a tweak for people if they fancy trying it.
The angled piece you indicate is a strike panel to help angle the airflow into the bifurcated throats. There isn't currently a specific size. Personally, I'd probably take a 1in square-section, and cut it on the diagonal. Good luck with the project, and do keep us up-to-date on how it progresses.
Best
Scott |
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| testarossa2k |
Tomorrow I'm going to big city so I also did a plan of BIB in case I don't find 19mm material.
do you think is correct? I mean the numbers of measures. all numbers are in inch ''
Material:
for horn: pine is good? chipboard better than MDF because it stores less energy, right?
for BIB: pine, poplar, chipboard, mdf? how they are?
why in the suggested cutplan of sachiko there are 4 BAFFLE instead of two? |
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| testarossa2k |
| my plan for bib are wrong. Whed I converted the inch to cm something it wan't right |
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| Scottmoose |
Er, yes. ;)
You don't want a Zdriver location of 1/4 the cabinet length. If you're wanting a 70in tall box, then I'd be using 9in wide x 12.75in deep (internal, not including the baffle), Zdriver 30in. A+B+C = 6.25in.
Pine is nice (Terry Cain was a fan) but it needs to be well seasoned otherwise it's not such a good idea. That pine-board you can sometimes get might be quite good, if you can get it in the necessary sizes. Poplar is also supposed to be good -same thing applies though; needs to be properly seasoned, with a low moisture content and as few knots as possible. I suspect chipboard (particleboard) would be better than MDF for horn cabinets like these. A chipboard box with a pine / whatever baffle laminated to the front would likely work & look good too. Birch ply is generally the stuff to use if possible though, as ever.
No idea about the cutplan -I didn't do it. Which baffles are you refering to? The fronts? One sheet is an alternate layout, that might be it. |
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| testarossa2k |
| I mean the fron the baffle on wich the driver should be mounted. Now I understood, that is for altarnate sheet using a single angled piece instead of deflectors.... |
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| testarossa2k |
I don't want to spend too money so BIB.
But I would like to understand how
Fostex FE206E
L = (Line length) 174"
Zdriver = Driver 35" down from sealed end of cabinet
Sm = 133.875"^2
Zdriver= ok 35 inch from the top the only thing i understand
If I want to build the cabinet as raccomended on BIB site what are the measures? |
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| Scottmoose |
| 87in tall, 9.75in wide x 13.75in deep (internal). |
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| testarossa2k |
| Thank you. now I changed the project. Is it correct? It is in centimeters now |
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| Scottmoose |
Looks OK to me. Good luck with the new project & do let us know how you get on.
Scott |
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| testarossa2k |
The room where I'm going to put BIB is 13squaremeter and is high about 3 meters. It's ok for loading ?
But looking at BIB FR they have a hole at 80-90hz of 10db. I know that it doesn't sound bad as it looks. But in my previous bass reflex boxes they had also a hole at 100hz but just 3db, and the voices and bass sounded thin also if I put them in the corner, I think it's because the bass of the pop music is around 70-100hz.
So why they shouldn't sound thing also the BIB?
Sorry for the many question but I don't want to waste money and time, I searched the forum but I didn't found opinion of people that used the fe206 with BIB.
thank you |
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| Scottmoose |
The room fills most of it in. It's one of the compromises you have to accept though. Bass as a general rule is the last thing you need to worry about with these boxes.
I'm still not sure what's wrong with your existing cabinets though? |
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| testarossa2k |
| nothing. they're sounding great in another room...... |
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| Scottmoose |
:D
Space for two systems. I'm deeply envious.
Compared to say, an MLTL, a pipe-horn will kill it stone dead in the LF, so I wouldn't worry too much... :nod: |
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| testarossa2k |
tomorrow night I will build one.
Where would you put the blinding post? On the front it isnt' good looking since you see the cable. On the backis nicer but you need long cable an it isn't good because it will increase the resistence( but I think it's impossible to hear the difference in sound, it can be only measured with instrument) Putting them nn the side it sucks....
Should I put absorbing material inside? |
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| Scottmoose |
I tend to prefer placing the binding posts on the rear panel, near the base. To be honest, my main reason is simply so I don't have wires hanging in mid-air, which doesn't look so hot to my eyes.
The additional resistance will be small -depends what wire you're using. Ideally, it wants to be the same as the external speaker cable (although if you use 8AWG wire per channel, it might be a trifle tricky to solder it to the driver... :D ) but YMMV as always.
Another way is to place the binding posts on the rear panel at the same height as the driver, drill a small hole through the internal baffle to feed the wire through, and then seal it with plenty of sillicone sealent, caulking or similar.
For the damping, I'd either a) lightly stuff the point above the driver, place some felt behind it, and place a nice layer of stuffing about 1in deep on the base, or b) line the front of the internal baffle, and one side-wall, to just below the driver with stiff fiberglass if you can find it, and place the same on the base. Because they use the room a lot, it's pretty much a case of getting them in position, and then stuff / damp to taste. |
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| testarossa2k |
I'm finishing one today. If I like it I'll do another one....
Is absorbing material needed to eliminate unwanted HF coming out from the pipe? If so I can put it, to my taste, from the high, there's no need to remove the driver... |
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| Scottmoose |
| Generally speaking, yes. Just do as 'Zilla did & stuff it down with a broom-handle. Make sure there's a piece of felt or similar behind the driver though. |
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| testarossa2k |
for dampig I have this: the inside of pillow, wich is 100% acrilic material. And thin layer of acrylic.
So I go for option A: I lightly stuff above the driver to the closed end of the pipe. Then I place a thin layer behind the driver. Then I also have to put a layer on the bottom? for base do you mean bottom?
PS
I had delay because one blinding post broke into two pieces while I was triying it. Never seen before a thing like that. They were empty inside, that's why they're so weak. |
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| Scottmoose |
| Well, that's different, having a binding post break. Not happened to me either, although I've seen those plastic terminal cups (shudder) crack before now. Yes, that damping sounds about right & a good starting point. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by testarossa2k
PS
I had delay because one blinding post broke into two pieces while I was triying it. Never seen before a thing like that. They were empty inside, that's why they're so weak. |
I've broken quite a few with a bit of a heavy hand with the nut driver... the ones with the least metal tend to sound better...
dave |
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| testarossa2k |
yesterday I finished.
Listening impression:
Too much midrange
The bass isn't lauder as with horn, but it's present.
With some cd you get a lot of bass other cds sound thin.
Bass is very directional, because if you don't stay in fornt and at same height of the driver you hear less bass with some cds.
I'm to put more absorbing material. I putted very little, just 3mm leayer behind the driver and some above the driver. |
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| testarossa2k |
now I addedd a lot of abosrbing material. I stuffed the closed end of the pipe. Plus 2 layers, about 1 cm behind the driver. And a thin layer on the internal baffle. This changed the sound completely.
No more screaming highs, and a lot a lot of bass from all the cds.
Before putting it I was hearing just some bass in the very low frequency, but now the sound is rich.
Very happy about it, never heard a bass so low in frequency. The high aren't quiet as with horn, but I'll add more absorbing, if it do that well to the sound... |
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| testarossa2k |
I added a lot of absorbing material(polyester) under the driver and another layer behind. Result? Bass now is less less lauder, not really a good thing (that's what about this enclosure is all about) and highs are like before, they are unforgiving in some recordings.
What can i do?
other place to put absorbing?
resistor? |
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| Scottmoose |
Cabinets don't really affect the HF. The highs are lunforgiving because that's the nature of the driver: it's not an especially smooth or forgiving listen up-top. A pair of phase plugs from Dave P10 would help.
The further down the line you stuff, the more LF you'll absorb. As I mentioned before, a good compromise is to stuff the point above the driver, place a layer of felt or similar directly behind the driver, and then place a thick layer of stuffing on the internal base, which should absorb the unwanted higher frequencies (over about 350Hz) & prevent most of them leaking out of the terminus, while preserving the LF. |
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| testarossa2k |
More pics
Shot with hp photosmart 720 at 2007-08-01
Shot with hp photosmart 720 at 2007-08-01
The cabinet is mad of fir wood. Inside I glued the nodes.
Now I solved the problem with highs. It was fault of a bad speaker. I tried with another FE206E I have and now the highs are normal. The speaker has some light scratches on the wizzer cone. They are my friend's speaker(previuosly they were in BR boxex but now he has 2 horns and he don't know what to do with them).
A lot of people do this
http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?...osemirowlm0.jpg
It has an acoustic advantege or it's just for the look?
I seen on this forum that some people inverted the pipe, should I try or I have a sufficiently ceiling height? |
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| testarossa2k |
I'm building the second one... Does it matter if there's some millimiters from the plan? or it's irrilevant?
thank you |
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