| TonyE |
Hi all
someone can help me to choose between these very expensive driver:
Supravox 215-2000 exc and Fertin 20ex, they are similar for dimension and many other things, price included !
Thanks. |
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| TonyE |
| nobody have experience on that fullrange drivers? |
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| el`Ol |
| For the more expensive gear the high sensitivity speaker forum at audioasylum.com is probably the better place. |
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| Scottmoose |
| We can't really help you much until you give some more information. What are you intending to do with them? How are you planning to load them? What sort of music do you like? What sort of musical presentation are you after? How big is your room? Is it live or dead, in its resonant character? What's the rest of your system like? Are aesthetics important? How large can you go? |
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| TonyE |
Ok scottmoose,
I know wath you mean, but I need only a objective opinion, like a comparative test with all same condictions in terms of pure pleasure of listening the sound, keeping in mind the very hi-hend. |
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| tinitus |
There was someone in here posting that he had ordered the Fertins
There is also PHY, not with electromagnet but should be nice drivers - it has lower moving mass and still lower Fs, and the advantage of being 15ohm(?) |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by TonyE
Ok scottmoose,
I know wath you mean, but I need only a objective opinion, like a comparative test with all same condictions in terms of pure pleasure of listening the sound, keeping in mind the very hi-hend. |
Problem with that is the chosen 'objective' physical criteria may (almost certainly) suit one driver better than another, when under different conditions, be they subtle or dramatic, the results could be reversed. In reality it's not objective at all. Also remember that what one person enjoys for their 'pure pleasure of listening' might not be what you like. That's a purely subjective thing, which tends to increase, not decrease with price. The high end of audio has always been about extremes, while the budget end usually sounds much of a muchness. That's why I asked a) what you personally prefer, and b) what you're planning to do with the drivers, because one is not automatically better than the other: they'll offer different things, suited to different setups, rooms, methods of loading, personal taste etc. I'm not trying to be difficult here, or scupper your plans -quite the reverse. What I'm simply asking for is for you to give us something to work on, so we're in a position to make a sensible suggestion, rather than just randomly saying 'the x is best' because in this particular room, system, method of loading, & programme material it happens to suit one person's preferences better than the other.
FWIW, as a rule, Supravox drivers, as raw units, tend to err slightly on the warm side of neutral, and hang images back in a deeper soundstage, while the Fertin drivers, as raw units, are slightly on the brighter side of neutral and project them forward more vigorously. But these trates will be radically affected by all the aforementioned criteria, so I wouldn't set much stock by it. |
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| TonyE |
Sorry for the big error : hi-end.
Hi tinitus, I know PHY-HP , I have considered also (h21lb15 for ex.) but
I think that driver don't have a good exstension to the upper audio frequencies, so I think it need help by some supertw and I wouldn't to add it. |
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| lrntglls |
Go to audio circle and read the thread- blast from the past:
fieldcoil speakers. This will give you an idea of the
Fertin 20EX sound. |
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| TonyE |
yes, you are rigth Scottmoose, but, by my experience, never make questions like : which music you prefer or what kind of sound is ideal for you because what I'm thinking is this moment can be untrue to oneself just by a new experience, listening new things/configuration, however I never had the possibility to hear that components, so, I hope I can collect more informations by who,in this forum, had a direct experience. For example your last infomation can be enough useful for
me, you know this is the same problem that someone have when have to buy without try, at this price! |
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| Scottmoose |
Tell me about it. I know the feeling well. :eek: Just remember the provisos attached -a general description of the unit in a raw state or in one cabinet, or one system, or one room, won't really tell you much & I wouldn't want to spend a lot of money based purely on that, or even a number of them. That said, with mega-price units like these from relatively small companies, there isn't a great deal of option, as for obvious reasons you're unlikely to ever be able to hear the things in advance.
In a spirit of curiosity, what are you planning on doing with them? Vented box? Horn? OB? |
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| TonyE |
I'm planing OB or TQWT load,
thanks Tinitus, however he talking about the right driver fertin model that I had mentioned, but don't talk about the exact supravox model,
of course he can give good informations on fertin since he is a fertin user, but he know about supravox 215-2000 exc? it go up to 20khz by graphics available on the site, another my question is : why the frquencies response of the fertin is so secret? hwever I don't have doubt regarding the quality of 20ex, but here I look for "details" |
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| TonyE |
| "ibook---->iTunes"???? |
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| FlorianO |
Tony,
If one really means "objective" then the published T/S params for the 215-2000 vs 20EX should get you going. AFAIU they are relatively accurate (others pls correct me if I'm wrong). While Supravox publishes the CSD, impluse response etc. you should rember that both (maybe especially Fertin ?) are small niched companys that do not have the resources to do hand-holding for a DIYer going through a life crisis before forking 1000 Euros for a driver. One either wants a 20EX or not, is that simple.
So, if one really knows how to interpret them, take a look at the Sd, Mms, Fs, Qts, Xmax, Ls, BL product etc. for the two and you would be able to figure out what fits and what not. The 20EX freq. response should be avail if you ask the right persons, but I'm not so sure how much that will help you.
I for one I know I'm a dummy and far away from being able to do that "objective" judgement based solely on published/avail data (i.e. without more details on specific setup and intended use). As such I strongly recommend following Scott's advice -- and others -- that _do_ have experience with those drivers in specific setups and their subjective impressions on those |
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| TonyE |
| Hi Floriano, my question regarding the fertin curve response is just a curiosity, but I think, we can take in consideration all T/S parameters, analyze it, compare, put it in some simul soft, talk about it, but if you can't ear your tchnical considerations, I think, remain in doubt, simply I looking for rumors on the net and like first on this frequently and important forum. We are talk about two most similar driver. |
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| lrntglls |
I think that you're on the right path , going for a field coil
driver. Maybe you should try open-baffle first. You have
now, many simple plans for open-baffle that are easy to build.
Ounce you hear open-baffle , you probably won't go back
to close cabinet. |
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| TonyE |
I'm thonking so also, but which deriver? There is only one thing that tend me to the fertin, the max power rate of the supravox is only 20w,
my actual power amp (two) are 30w rms, one tube and one fet, I never would damage that driver! |
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| peterbrorsson |
Hi TonyE!
I'm no expert who can explain in detail what/how/why! But what I do know, is that at 94 db sensitivity, even 15 W will make more noise than you would stand. There are issues maybe with bass heavy tracks, however I suspect every fullranger will have these problem.
Cheers and good luck! |
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| Zoran |
hi,
You are considering to employ one of the best drivers in the world...
I think that fertin has no permanent magnet (need for the external power supply, also possibility to choose Qt...)
Supravox have the two versions Alnico magnet and one with external bias magnetisation...
One member said that he used supravox with external (not cheap) power supply, in the bipole plate only, and there is some significant heat behind the driver...
that leads to the notion that might be a problem to use drivers with not permanent magnet in the cabinet requireing stuffing material behind the driver unit because of the heat...
personaly I am for the alnico permanent magnet and supravox model...
Because it is open to fit in different cabinets constructions...
One is positive, booth drivers are the ultimate central unit...
also presence of bass is depending on type of music You consume...
note the angle of listening position, material and weight of membrane which defines the chaacter of sound rather than electric datas... |
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| Zoran |
off course the power is not the issue for those units,
2-3W will rock the house... |
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| alain_online |
Hi,
I just finished my OB with these drivers and had a listen. No long time necessary to realize the Fertin 20EX is the best driver I ever heard.
It replaced a "Magnificat"speaker, according to KYW's naming (axiom 80 & axiom 201). OK, the OB has less bass, but with one driver alone, it is making quite nice bass with a 162X100X1,5cm panel.
It has a sound closely related but better than the axiom 80: dynamic, detailed and smoth. Timbres accuracy is great. Just now, it has a so-so DC supply just for breaking in the drivers and because I could not wait more ; batteries later.
So, without any refinment in the setup :rolleyes: (well I mouted it flush both panel sides, not easy with this guy ...), the potential is there without doubts.
Never heard a Supravox unit.
All the best,
Alain |
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| hardcore |
Hi,
Have you tried the OB plan recommended by M. Semblat. IIRC it's about 32" X 48" with small movable wings?
That design gives sufficient bass in a medium size room |
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| lrntglls |
Alain, glad you like your Fertin 20ex. They take a long time
time to breake in....
If you want the Fertin open-baffle plan just e-mail me
and I'll gladly send it to you. gilles. |
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| alain_online |
Hi hardcore,
as I have just enough room for large panels; I prefer large panels for bass extension. My room is 4.6 m wide. I followed dice45's experience about baffle size.(Fertin project - calling all open baffle experts ).
Salut Gilles,
c'est très volontier pour les plans. Je te contacte par email. I just bought a CD with warble tone tracks for breaking-in.
All the best,
Alain |
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| hardcore |
Alain,
Please keep us posted on your experience between battery as power supply
I currently use a 20amp power supply choke filtered feeding both drivers. I have close to 12V and 1 amp draw each driver. Sound is great and the best I've heard so far.
How are you toeing in? I have mine pointed straight ahead which seems to have the best tonal balance
HC |
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| lrntglls |
One thing to mention about using a battery as a power supply;
since the charger, charges the battery at 15v and the
Fertin 20ex are max 12v, then you need to cut off the Fertin
when charging. Some people use a switch; but I think
you already know this.......gilles |
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| alain_online |
Hi,
about toeing in, yes: to my understanding, at high frequencies the radiation is quite directional. So I have aligned the driver axis with the listening position (see picure).
Of course, I'll tell you about batteries. I googeled a lot about batteries and found only positives reports about it.
Gilles, I don't understand why you say the FC is max. 12V. At Fertin website, the values range is 5 to 15V (20EX curves ).
About the FC power supply I use (constant current regulated):
12,9V - 1.19A (R=10.84) at start
12,9V - 1.10A (R=11.72) after 2 hours.
I choose 12.9V as I read in this forum that at this value the magnetic circuit is saturated. But dice45 had 12.9V/1.5A (R=8.6). Does anyone knows whether the FC design has changed ? I'll also ask Mr. Semblat. A little OT, sorry.
All the best,
Alain |
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| alain_online |
| Picture here ! |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by alain_online
I choose 12.9V as I read in this forum that at this value the magnetic circuit is saturated. But dice45 had 12.9V/1.5A (R=8.6). |
It's best to experiment with PS voltage. When I was using previous version of 20EX, I settled on 11.5V as this worked best in my setup. Increasing voltage above that value seemed to degrade the sound. The PS was based on adjustable LT1086 regulator.
Now, that I have the new version of 20EX, it appears that the driver works better with higher supply voltage (12v and up). I still didn't do any serious comparisons, as I was waiting for a complete burn in. |
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| Peter Daniel |
I finally managed to complete PS for my Fertins. After months of using the new drivers I settled again for 11.5V supply which consists of 2 x 7.2 Ah 12V Panasonic cells in parallel. The charger is connected permanently and described here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...594#post1390594
I couldn't use batteries alone as there was too much current draw and the voltage couldn't be kept steady. Connecting charger in parallel has rather negligable effect for the sonics. So the charger is connected permanently and set for 11.5V, which keeps the batteries at the same voltage; batteries are being disconnected from the speakers overnight only. |
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| nicoch46 |
HI Peter
Any news from fertin ? How sound? |
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| levinsje |
Hi,
I have the Supravox 215EXC field coil driver in open baffle and the sound is amazing. It is sent a full range signal but drops off at 70Hz. They are powere by Welborne Terraplane 300B monoblocks. A ribbon supertweeter is used with a single M cap to send it 10Khz and above. The bass (70Hz and below, 2nd order) is augmented by a separate active crossover which goes to two 300 watt Keiga plate amps powering four Hawthorne "augie" 15" open baffle woofers. I can't be happier with the sound. I do not have any experience with Fertin. |
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| nicoch46 |
Wow ,great !
I'm new on fullrange side ,only scanspeak |
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| levinsje |
Another option I would recommend looking into is the new Hawthorne Sterling Silver Iris. It may sound as nice as my Supravox filed coils at about $735 each. It is a 15" driver with a Radian compression tweeter. The crossover is the best quality using M-caps. I probably would go with this if I had not already invested in the Supravox drivers. This product is strictly for open baffle.
Jim |
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| nicoch46 |
Thanks
but no xover- no tweeter ,fullrange , (only for supravox at 10k.....)
my idea 18-22 o'clock scanspeak 22-01 fullrange
Any news about Fertin?? |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by nicoch46
Any news from fertin ? How sound? |
What you mean news? I've been using them for last to years and I'm not looking for replacement;) |
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| el`Ol |
Peter,
do you still have the FAL drivers lying around? I know someone who is developing an isodynamic midwoofer and is considering to use the FAL as a reference. |
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| HermanG |
Hello all, my first post concerning Fertin speakers 20EX model7.
Afther severall contacts with Mr. Semblat JM I visited him last week in France too listen his new model 7 20EX with copper coils in his OB panel.
I've taken my integrated SET amp (2W) with me, to be sure it match his speakers.
Afther a few hours of playing in (new speakers) I can confirm the match with this integrated SET amp (8ohm) and was delighted to compare it with his PPT amp. There was something going on frankly spoken. Emotional communicatief and very open and naturall sounding, detailled without any stress. Thanks to Mr. JM Semblat for the very nice listening session and YES I bought those FR 20 Model seven because it works fantastic with only 2W. in OB! Ask him, maybe he prefered that little SET that day? |
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| nicoch46 |
I have jumped on FR-OB trend with a "cheap" supravox 215 SB .
I never come back to box-xover speaker !!! |
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| hornophile |
hello hermanG,
Your experience with Fertin and SE is interesting.
Do you need a subwoofer for this fertin ?
Is it possible to listen to big orchestral works ( like symphonia in classical music) without having the driver congested ?
Thanks !
Guillaume |
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| levinsje |
Hi Guillaume,
A subwoofer for the Supravox 215 EXC is not needed if it is used with a TQWT enclosure. Mine went down to 40Hz.
Last week I listened to my brother's system and he uses the 215 EXC drivers in a "big fun horn" which is flat to 20 Hz. The sound is simply amazing but the horn is about 2' wide by 5' deep by 4.5' high.:devilr: It was the most accurate bass I have ever heard.
I still recommend the 215 EXC in open baffle with several subs also in open baffle.
Jim |
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| HermanG |
Hi Guilliaume,
Personally I feel not the need for adding a subwoofer with the Fertin 20EX model 7 anyway, and it is difficult to answer that question for you and others. The reason I bought these speakers is namely there homogenity and musical envolvement and I prefer not to distroy that qualllity by adding subs or supertweeters. Simply I was looking for one pair of full range speaker that will make music with only 2 or 3 watt. And yes for me it has enough low end (bas) amazing for a OB.
They are new and my baffle plan is not ready yet, so the only thing I can tell you I taked my amp to France and the Fertins compli musically my SET integrated!. There are maybe severall other good optons like Supravox, Phy etc., but the potential of the Fertin full range drivers and the synergy with my SET was essentially there. For the second question I can not comfirm for orchestral works but you will need more than 1 or 2 Watt. With EML45 Mesh (1W) the driver congested on peaks. I changed to the 2A3 mesh and there was no problem on classical work "amazing"
Contact Mr. JM Semblat or make an appointment, give it a try and you will enjoy a great day!
Herman |
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| lrntglls |
The Fertin 20ex model 7-surroundless
will do 25hz in a bass-reflex cabinet
with great dynamic ( acc. factor of 732) .
Even the small Fertin AP13 will get to 25hz and with
an acc. factor of 1332. Surroundless technology has its own
characteristics that are difficult to find in a driver with a
surround. We don't find many surroundless drivers and
it will take a bit of time before audiophiles get to know it.
Comparing is sometime not the best way to go about;
as taste in audio are very different from one person to another
and the system as a whole can make a huge difference. |
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| lrntglls |
...and I would ad that the Fertin 20ex model 7 do
look nice... and the design to keep the cone centered
using carbon wire works well too. |
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| HermanG |
I agree completely, but I don't like the looks! (shiny and all that blinkery gold) but I trust my ears and thats wat count for me!
Herman |
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| lrntglls |
Do you have your drivers or are they being built?
I'm sure that Jean-Marie could do something about
what you don't like in the design.
I was surprised by your 2w amp driving the 20ex model 7;
I was told that a 10w amp or more with an 8ohm output
impedance ( a current amp) would be require to drive them.
But here again , what you heard is what counts. |
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| lrntglls |
HermanG;
Jean-Marie Semblat's comments when I asked
him about what 2w amp you use:
(Translation from french)
''It's a Techtron SE, that does music, a lot of music....
I'll look into it...''
You surely impressed him.... |
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| HermanG |
Hi Gilles,
Thanks, for your reply, I've got answer from Jean-Marie.
The SE I use is an integrated Tektron from Italy that can be used with different triodes. "2A3, 45, 50 etc". (You can also look for a test at 6moon) I was surprised to read somewhere the need of high current amps (min 10W) with those new Fertins 20EX. So i
I took the cow with the horns and went too France and come with the conclusion that only 2W give me the answer in spite off that PP. mono amps and so on. (so Alise in wonderland)
Figure's do not explain everything I gues. I went back home with two Fertins, so hopefully between a few weeks I'm ready with the construction off the OB. I thinking for ps about two batteries or in meantime Tentlabs modules.
Supravoxs makes also a very good 215 / 2000 EXC for OB Series. |
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| deadlyvj |
I can vouch for the Fertin ... its the best, if not one of the best single drivers I've heard .... bar none. I've had it for 2 years and love it more everyday. It does everything right ... music, the flow and the way it presents it .... less strain to your ears ... I was moving and thought about selling these jewels ... but my wife (who initially threw a fit for buying these) refused to do so .... that speaks for itself
I've heard that the new model is a big improvement over the old .... thats very hard for me to believe
Best,
VJ |
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