| diyninja |
Hi all, new guy here. Stephen from the Denver/Boulder area. I recently acuired a pair of 8" full range University drivers and have been looking for a cabinet to build for them. I ran across the frugal horn site and found the Sachiko cabinet and was wondering if anyone has built it and or heard it? I am considering other cabinets as well. As far as visually, I like front facing horn openings, and tall and thin as opposed to short and fat for placement on either side of a rather large projector screen. Bottom line though is sound. I may get better drivers down the road and would like to use the same cabinets. Soif anyone has an opinion on the Sachiko cabinets, I would like to hear from you. Any other cabinet plans and thoughts are more than welcome as well. Thank you!
Stephen |
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| planet10 |
Sachiko is going to work best with a driver that wants a horn... Bruce is more tolerant... do you know the University's specs?
dave |
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| planet10 |
| PS: i don't yet know of anyone that has build Sachiko, but at least 1 Hiro exists |
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| Scottmoose |
If they're vintage drivers, I reckon Bruce or Loreena might be better bets, but if I had some specs, I could tell for sure.
It does look good, that Hiro build doesn't it? Real TC flavour to the lines, aside from the final mouth flare. |
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| paba |
Hi Planet,
how does that Hiro sound? Strengths / Weaknesses? I'm thinking of it for my Fe166-ESR. Any tweaking/stuffing required?
It's between the Hiro and the Fostex cabinet for this driver. I haven't heard either so I'm looking for input.
The only Fostex cabinet I heard was for the Fe103e and it was very good.
Thanks
paba |
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| Scottmoose |
We don't know yet -neither Dave, nor I built it. I recieved the picture some time back in my Frugal-horn email account which I unfortunately wasn't able to access until I shifted to the Thunderbird email program (I hate Microsoft, and all their works :headshot: Also, to be fair, I made an error in the input) last week. I asked the gentleman about it as soon as I got active, but I haven't heard back yet. He did say though that even without any damping /'it sounds good.' Hope we get some more information from him -Andy, are you out there?
FWIW, the ES-R with probably need some reticulated foam in the twin throats to lower the upper cut-off / absorb the unwanted higher frequency information in the horn. I designed all the Spawn cabinets as generic boxes, so some user tweaking is needed depending on the driver used: as we can't set an effective upper cut off, I decided to go for more gain, and run them wide, as you can always damp down what you have too much of. A specific ES-R design is possible, but we haven't done one for the site, as the driver is a limited edition, the userbase would be very small, & so it's best left to the custom design service P10 offers while wo cater to a broader range of users with the open-source designs.
The 103 horn is a bit odd IMO -it's mismatched to the driver. The 126 would probably do better in it. If you liked that cabinet, which is mediocre as horn designs go, I bet you'll love a better optimised cabinet, |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by paba
[how does that Hiro sound? Strengths / Weaknesses? I'm thinking of it for my Fe166-ESR. Any tweaking/stuffing required? |
Don't know. Those aren't mine, the picture was forwarded to me. I expect will get more feedback as that project continues.
| quote: | | The only Fostex cabinet I heard was for the Fe103e and it was very good. |
My experience with the 103 cab was th eopposite of yours... Chris did such a good job on the cabs i haven't had the heart to burn them.
dave |
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| diyninja |
| Talked to the guy that sold me the speakers again. He says the specs are approx 30 watts, 14khz - 40hz. |
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| diyninja |
Hi again,
So far I haven't been able to come up with the actual specs of the speakers. They are ev/university SP8C 8" drivers. I guess the same speaker has been unchanged for 40 or so years. The guy i got them from said he got them new in the 90's. He says he has the specs in the original box somewhere, although seems uncertain where the actual box actually is. They are quite heavy I did find a pic on the net, but can't read the specs. They are 8 ohm. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by diyninja
So far I haven't been able to come up with the actual specs of the speakers |
From a post on the Full Range Forum
dave
| quote: | SP8C from E-V data sheet :
Z = 8ohm
Fs = 55Hz
Response : 41 - 12,000 Hz ±6dB
SPL = 95dB/W/m
P = 25W RMS
Qes = 0.49
Qms = 5.2
Qts = 0.45
Vas = 1.0 cu ft (28.3 litre)
Sd = 30 sq in (193.5 cm2)
Recommended enclosure :
Vb = 1,2 cu ft (34 litres)
Vent : 4.3 sq in x 2.6"
F3 = 50Hz (-3dB) |
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| diyninja |
Thanks for the actual specs. When will I learn to search group archives instead of just google? No need to answer that.
So, according to those specs, will those speakers work in a horn cabinet?, and if so, what would be a good choice, preferably something with a front horn, or two?
Thanks!! :cool:
Stephen |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by diyninja
When will I learn to search group archives instead of just google? |
I actually found it with a google...
| quote: | So, according to those specs, will those speakers work in a horn cabinet?, and if so, what would be a good choice, preferably something with a front horn, or two?
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Scott will need to check, but from what i see in the numbers, a Bruce or Loreena variant looks like it will be most suitable...
dave |
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| Scottmoose |
| It might go into Sachiko passably, but Bruce would probably be the best bet, with the back-chamber suitably damped. |
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| diyninja |
OK, thanks guys. This is very helpful to me.
:)
Stephen |
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| John L |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
PS: i don't yet know of anyone that has build Sachiko, but at least 1 Hiro exists |
Just what IS the difference between the Sachiko and the BIB/Chang? I went to your site and looked at them, and all I see is size difference basically. |
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| Scottmoose |
Er, everything.
The BIB is a pipe-horn. No chamber, vents upward, intended for corner placement. Not a Frugal-horn cabinet (but a real favourite of mine).
Chang et al are BVRs; large back-chamber, short waveguide[s]. Sachiko etc., are a classic type of BLH, albeit using stepped expansion in an Olson-inspired folding scheme. Have a look at the plans: http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn-plans.html click on the driver names to bring up the CAD drawings & you'll see the radically different internals. Most will eventually have curved fronts. As yet only Chang and Chili-Chang (I don't like that name much) have curves; the latter hasn't been drawn yet. Not enough hours in the day, sadly. |
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| JeremyB |
Ninja,
I am actually in the process of building some Sachiko's right now. I am planning on the Fostex206e drivers.
Good luck on whatever you decide to build.
Jeremy |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scottmoose
Chili-Chang have curves |
Chili has a flat front, KimChi has curved
dave |
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| Scottmoose |
| Curses. I'm loosing track. Age, that's what it is, age. I decay visibly. :bawling: |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scottmoose
Curses. I'm loosing track. Age, that's what it is, age. I decay visibly. :bawling: |
Balderdash... you are half my age :)
dave |
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| John L |
You guys are correct: there is a big difference.
But let's say the drivers being equal, is there much difference in the sound, and how different with the two?
I ask all this because I am somewhat new to this single driver side of the speaker building business. |
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| Scottmoose |
Well, one type of cabinet is really designed for one type of driver (low Q), and the other is designed for other types of drivers (mid-Q, with low Q + added resistance as an option), so direct comparisons are difficult.
FWIW, the small-chamber, long path designs provide more gain over a wider passband, theoretically control the driver better at high SPLs, and will sound a little more immediate; a little more dynamic if you prefer, sacrificing a little smoothness in the response to do so. The BVRs; large chambers with short waveguides, are intrinsically smoother / flatter in their response, are an easier & less complicated build, but they won't go quite as loud without distorting as the small-chamber types. |
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| ronc |
Sorry, i am losing track of whats what? KimChe? Chilli Chang?
In engineering you normally designate a name or first letter after the function, then include Rev. status with ADCN notes (Advanced Dwg Change Notice, witch are revs not folded into the current rev level).
Example:
PUTES-01 (Plate ultrasonic edge scan) first drawing
PUTES Rev A Plate ultrasonic edge scan) Rev A
PUTES Rev A, ADCN 001 (same as above but i saw a better way to do something minor/cheaper)
PUTES Rev B incorporated all recent ADCNs
PUTES Rev B Redline Changed something on the current Dwg during Mfg. (We NEVER get it right the first time) Most i ever Redlined was the hardening of computer enclosures for EMP.
All this helps define what the current status is. And gives a reason for my boss to ask " Mr. Ron ,why didnt you see this problem during design....are you ever going to finish the project?
Yall are confusing an old man.
ron |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ronc
[B]Sorry, i am losing track of whats what? KimChi? Chilli Chang?
In engineering you normally designate a name or first letter after the function, then include Rev. status with ADCN notes |
Ahh, but the names of the Changs, and all the Spawns for that matter, is more about wimsy
In the case of these two... spicy dishes
dave |
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| John L |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scottmoose
FWIW, the small-chamber, long path designs provide more gain over a wider passband, theoretically control the driver better at high SPLs, and will sound a little more immediate; a little more dynamic if you prefer, sacrificing a little smoothness in the response to do so. The BVRs; large chambers with short waveguides, are intrinsically smoother / flatter in their response, are an easier & less complicated build, but they won't go quite as loud without distorting as the small-chamber types. [/B] |
Got you there. makes sense. The smaller the back chamber or more restriction, the less easy to move the cone mass, due to air pressure. |
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| Scottmoose |
| Right, though in practice, the difference can often be smaller than you'd think -I've seen BVRs control the driver better than a mediocre BLH. Incidentally, although the term BVR has come to refer to a large chamber / short waveguide combination, in reality you can argue that it is applicable to most chambered BLHs (arguably compound horns aside). |
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| IowaDave |
I have a set of Sachikos. If anyone is around the Iowa City area you are free to take a listen. As for comparing them to other designs, I cant help you out. I have no time under my belt listening to any other FR designs.
Sachiko sitting next to my Dual 15" HWK (decware design)
The day I first wired them up, they have been moved as they are leaps and bounds larger than my previous speakers (8" JBL Decades)
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| Scottmoose |
| Ah, but do they sound good, that's the question? :cloud9: |
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| hornophile |
Hello everyone,
I bought a pair of LOWTHER EX 3 driver recently and intended to make a voigt pipe with them ( I considered realizing "classical" lowther design but I 'm a bit afraid of the work ; I prefer design only involving right angles).
But recently I have discovered the SACHIKO horn and I was seduced by the concept. I was wondering if this easy to build design will fit an EX3 ? I read all I can about sachiko on the forum but havn't found yet the answer....
1° Is SACHIKO has good result with lowther ? Does anyone as already build a SACHIKO horn with lowther driver ?
2° I consider too building the recommended fostex enclosure for F208sigma as it has good comments on the sound and the construction only involve right angles. What about the result with Lowther ?
Thanks for your advices ! |
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| Scottmoose |
| Should be fine with the EX3. It won't have quite the LF gain as the 206 because the Lowther doesn't have as much motor-power. Should still be good for 40Hz though at about 90db 1m / 1w. |
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| hornophile |
ok thanks for the quick answer scotmoose !
Do u think I will get more dynamic and bass with the SACHIKO than with the fostex BLH for F208 sigma ?
Right now I'm still hesitating between those two designs...
Thanks ! |
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| Scottmoose |
| Yes. These things are relative -they're not going to match a pair of 15in woofers per channel XO'd at ~500Hz to compression-loaded mids & tweeters. But it'll do a good job & be better than the Fostex box. |
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| IowaDave |
| As for my opinion of them, yes, they sound great! Good enough that I have no plans on building any other designs to even try. what i think i have been most surprised with is how large the box sounds. music and movies fill my room, like an array of sorts. Highs are clearer than the JBLs and the lows are about the same (slowly getting better). I like the 'big' feeling, the full wall of sound coming at your face. These fit in just great for what I am looking for. |
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| Scottmoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by IowaDave
Music and movies fill my room, like an array of sorts. I like the 'big' feeling, the full wall of sound coming at your face. These fit in just great for what I am looking for. |
In many ways, that's exactly what they are, or have much in common with anyway. Closest to some of the nearfield line-arrays with a single central tweeter. Glad you like them -scale & dynamics was a priority with these boxes, so it's good to get more feedback confirming that people are finding they're working as intended. :)
You should find the LF will steadily improve over the next year. Thing is, excursion with these boxes is pretty low / well-controlled, so getting the drivers to Xmax & loosening up the suspension is tricky without cranking them to ear-bleeding SPLs. |
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| sn7gta |
| Hi Scottmoose, This is Andy, I sent you those pictures. I got sick and was away for a period. I will post pictures and finding. I have them hookup to my 45 home brew tube amp. A few people just drop their jaw and admire the sound. It is one of my favorite speakers compare to ALK Cornwall, Lascala, Altec A7, Edgarhorn, and others. Thanks for the plan and advice. I am in Southern Cal; you're welcome to visit! |
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| thetubeguy1954 |
Although I didn't build them I have a pair of Sachiko aka Madisons made by Jeff Carder of CarderSound. I absolutely love them. They have the transparency of speed of the best electrostatics & ribbons, the wall of sound from loading the floor and ceiling of a linesource, the efficiency of horns and the bass of a dynamic driver!
Really what more could anyone ask for?
Thetubeguy1954 |
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| John L |
| Nice Santos Rosewood. My favorite wood. |
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| NickC |
i too am using the sachiko horns first with the fostex 206. I felt the fostex was a limiting factor.
Currently i am using one with a pair of AER md3 drivers.
Doing more tweaking to get the right balanced AER has a lot more resolution than the fostex |
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| Scottmoose |
| It will do, & I'm not surprised it's a more revealing driver. It's also one of the better replacements for the 206 from a technical POV. However, it was designed for the Fostex unit, so while there are other options (like the AER) they will need some tweaking to get working properly, as noted above. |
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| thetubeguy1954 |
| quote: | Originally posted by NickC
i too am using the sachiko horns first with the fostex 206. I felt the fostex was a limiting factor.
Currently i am using one with a pair of AER md3 drivers.
Doing more tweaking to get the right balanced AER has a lot more resolution than the fostex |
Hello NickC! Besides the AER having more resolution what other differences are there with the AER driver installed in the Sachiko vs Fostex FE206E driver?
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Scottmoose, do you think I'd be better off installing my FE206ES-R vs the AER driver? I've heard the FE206ES-R also has more resolution and better bass than the stock FE206E does but, I wonder if will sound better than the AER will? I could be wrong but isn't the FE206ES-R closer to the FE206E specs than the AER is?
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John L. Thanks for thumbs up on the Rosewood veneer. I ordered it as an upgrade simply because I love how Rosewood looks! I also upgraded the internal wire with a gold/silver/copper alloy that's 24K gold plated. Obviously the wire upgrade was for improved sound quality!
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For all Sachiko users. I have a tweak I'd like to share that costs absolutely NOTHING to try for yourself. I've raised the front of my Sachiko/Madison cabinets 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch off the floor ---{while leaving the rear of the cabinet on the floor}--- this effectively caused them to lean backwards, which in turn greatly enhanced soundstage depth while helping slightly with more centerfill. It also subjectively smoothed out the frequecy response very nicely as well!
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism, It's An Acquired Taste. |
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