| Davet |
There was a thread a year and some months ago regarding input coupling caps in the T-Amps.
Original Coupling Capacitor Thread
I have been in contact with Michael Mardis regarding testing circuitry and I will be testing a number of capacitors over the next few months.
The circuitry will have stereo (two gang) switches on each channel. Therefore, the cap under test will be the only cap in the circuit. There will be no parasitic influences from other capacitors with this arrangement. All other capacitors will be electronically removed from the input circuitry. Using two sets of switches will provide the capability to compare one cap on channel A and another on channel B.
It is my intent to have the various capacitors listened to by musicians, music lovers, and audiophiles, but not anyone who really has an electronics background beyond myself will be listening to the caps under test.
I would appreciate any other consideration that comes to mind that may be employed as I undertake this task.
The proposed testbed will be a modified SI T-AMP with the forementioned switches in each channel. At some later time I will undergo the test with a 41HZ Amp6 and possiby a TA-10.1.
The Caps I currently have at hand are:
Obligatto Copper Case 2.2 MFD
Obligatto Paper In Oil (PIO) 2.0 MFD.
Auricap 2.2 MFD
Blackgate 2.2 MFD
Russian PIO 2.0 MFD
I have a number of Russian Teflon 0.1 MFD caps which I may use at some point to bypass PIO caps. |
|
|
| BWRX |
| A 16V 2.2uF electrolytic (Panasonic FC) and a 50V/63V 2.2uF MKT film cap. |
|
|
| Conrad Hoffman |
| I just spent some time comparing caps in a similar fashion, but making a high gain differential measurement between two channels, each with a particular cap. It was not possible to get a good null across the audio band unless the caps were matched in value to a high degree. IMO, if one can hear anything, one can hear slight differences in the frequency response caused by mismatched caps. When the caps were matched, little difference was measured or heard between various film types. I don't have any Black Gates or other exotics, but no electrolytics could produce a good null, leaving some obvious hash in the audio band. I believed I could hear the difference as well. Thus, my advice is to only compare caps that measure close to identical in value, say 1-2%, and never try to compare a cap to a wire- they don't result in identical signals for obvious reasons. There may also be mismatches between the channels of your amp, unless you confirm them to match with a high gain differential measurement. Just comparing outputs on a scope isn't good enough. Without these precautions, the results of the listening tests lose a lot of meaning. |
|
|
| serengetiplains |
Davet, if your Russian caps are hermetically sealed, and if you send me some, I'll inject them with Fluorinert and send them back to you. I've been experimenting with Fluorinert lately and find it to have premium dielectric qualities. Teflon/Fluorinert caps are better than anything I've heard (I've pretty much bought/heard/measured everything out there).
And if you have any hermetic sealed Russian caps you care to get rid of, I'll take them off your hands! |
|
|
| panomaniac |
Dave, are you going to build the burn circuit I sent?
If you don't burn them in, you know you will get a lot of "these caps don't sound good until after 500 hours" type of thing. ;)
Just want to insulate you from an obvious complaint. It might also allow you to compare a fresh cap with one that has some "miles" on it.
Looking forward to your findings!
BTW, I second Brian's vote for Panasonic FC. 2.2 or 3.3uF
And maybe some generic electrolytic and film cap. |
|
|
| Davet |
Michael, I plan to build and use your burn in circuit.
I don;t have the Panasonics on hand; unless they are the ones that came with the Amp6. At this point I do not plan to purchase all the various caps available. Maybe over time I will test a great number of them, but initially I will test those listed above. In addition I do have some 5 MFD Polycarbonates, Solens 3.3 MFD, and some Dayton films that I may try as well.
The Auricaps have been in my SI T-Amp for the past 5 months. I swapped out the Auricaps for the Obligatto PIOs today. The PIO seem to provide fuller bass and smoothed the highs a little. My initial impression was the PIO don't have the focus/definition that the Auricaps yield. The PIOs provide a broader soundstage, but the musicians do not seem to have the air around them of the Auricaps.
This initial impression is based on 3-hours of my listening. |
|
|
| BWRX |
Dave,
I can send you a bunch of 2.2uF Panasonic FCs and some of the 2.2uF MKT films caps. Send me an email with your address and I'll mail them to you.
My ears have led me to like no coupling caps the best - this wasn't with any Tripath amp though ;) With Tripath based amps I like the Auricap the best. The MKT was my next favorite. |
|
|
| soongsc |
| quote: | Originally posted by serengetiplains
Davet, if your Russian caps are hermetically sealed, and if you send me some, I'll inject them with Fluorinert and send them back to you. I've been experimenting with Fluorinert lately and find it to have premium dielectric qualities. Teflon/Fluorinert caps are better than anything I've heard (I've pretty much bought/heard/measured everything out there).
And if you have any hermetic sealed Russian caps you care to get rid of, I'll take them off your hands! |
Better than V-caps? Isn't Fluorinert some sort of coolling liquid? |
|
|
| Alastair E |
Unfortunately, Doing this modification, In Some Cases, where the source equipment has, for some reason Not got O/P coupling-caps, and has a voltage-offset , then the tripath will amplify this and produce a large DC voltage offset at its O/P....
This could easily ruin a speaker or the tripath chip, blow-fuses etc...
Not a good idea to remove the coupling-caps at the I/P.... |
|
|
| serengetiplains |
| quote: | Originally posted by soongsc
Better than V-caps? Isn't Fluorinert some sort of coolling liquid? |
Fluorinert is essentially liquid teflon with a very low dielectric constant (1.75) and probably correspondingly low DA, which is a function of dielectric constant. My paper/Fluorinert caps (despite the paper!) handily bettered VCaps---no contest. My Russian teflon/Fluorinert caps seem to me, after several days' listening, even that much better. |
|
|
| panomaniac |
Remember those experiments a few years ago where they had rats breathing an oxygen bearing liquid?
That was Fluorinert, IIRC.
So what are you dong with the stuff? Just injecting it into caps? So that it mixes with the dielectric? Doesn't that change the capacitance? |
|
|
| serengetiplains |
It was indeed Fluorinert.
Yes, I drill a small hole in the hermetic seal and inject Fluorinert until the cap is full. Fluorinert, because a form of teflon, is evidently chemically compatible with teflon, as after being injected, slowly seeps into the tight teflon windings. After four days, capacitance increases 4-5%. The increase is evidently from displaced air, which can be heard, several days post injection, if the cap is shaken.
The end result is a PIO cap ... without the paper, which is a terrible dielectric, and without the oil, which is but a moderately good dielectric, while theoretically retaining all the advantages of a liquid dielectric (reduced microphonics? self-cancelling DA?) with the superiority of teflon. Match made in heaven. |
|
|
| Davet |
I have received a number of capacitors inclusion in this test from contributors to this thread. Have built a HZ41 AMP6 Tripath based amplifier for the testing. In addition I have built a test bed just for the ability to switch between the capacitors.
Currently, I am burning in a series of capacitors based on a circuit provided by Michael Mardis. I plant to let the caps burn in for a minimum of 72 hours.
The first test I will conduct is to compare caps that have been burned in to the same cap that hasn't been burned in. I then plan to move onto comparing various capacitors against each other.
At some later point I will test various bypass caps on the coupling caps.
At this point I would like your input. The proposed test will be subjective for those not consumed by the hobby. Music of their choosing will be played through my system and I need criteria for them to rate in.
PRAT is not going to get it for them. I thought descriptors like lifelikeness; bass sounding like a acoustic bass; a piano sounding like it is in the room and proportioned to a piano; breadth of soundstage; air around performers, depth of soundstage; etc. Anything else you can think of that should be included please post or email me.
I will use terms measuring categories such as: really like: somewhat; like; dislike like somewhat; dislike; and hated it.
Once I get your imput and the test are underway I will start a new thread with the testing and results
TIA |
|
|
| Davet |
Scenerio: Compare Panasonic to Backgate electrolytics
I burned in a group of caps for at 336+ hours using a circuit provided by Panomaniac. I wanted to hear for myself if there was a audible difference between burned in (BI) and non-burned (NBI) in caps.
The first thing tested were Blackgate (BG) to Panasonic 3.3 MFD electrolytic caps. I compared (BI) BGs to (NBI) first and there is a definite difference in the sound of the BI BGs to the NBI BGs.
The BI BGs have a lot of body depth and width of soundstage compared to the NBI BGs. The NBI BGs sounded thin and the soundstage sounded compressed from front-to-to rear and from side-to-side.
I hear very little difference between the BI Panasonics and the BI BGs. The difference seems to be in the air around the performers. The BGs get the edge here.
The NBI Panasonics are tubby in the bass and the highs sound recessed.
Overall, the BI Panasonics and BGs are a wash to my ear. There is a subtle difference in the BGs, but for this application there is not a pronounced enough difference that would warrant the effort and expense, in my opinion, for the boutique cap.
Jan's inclusion of the Panasonics in the 41HZ kit is a winner once burned in.
The caps are the MKT films, BGs, AMP3, and AMP6 Panasonics. |
|
|
| Davet |
The test bed for these test are as follows:
Input is from either a tweaked Samsung HD-841, or a Bobwire Tweaked Samsung 709 with a SuperPro Dac.
A 41HZ AMP6 T-AMP with a RS ALPS VR.
CAT5 wire is run from the input capacitor pads on the PCB to a 5 gang 11 position Russian Switch (Currently 4 gangs and 8 positions are being used.) Each switch position has caps for left and right channels.
CAT5 wire runs to European terminal strips. This allows for quick substitution of caps in the test bed. Current capacity is for 8 different caps that may be compared at the same time.
Only the capacitors under test are in the circuit at any time. The caps do not share any wiring aside from the CAT5 wire that connects the switch to the PCB.
Note: I have to use the mute switch(sleep) on the AMP6 to switch between caps. There is a horrendous click that comes from the speakers if I try to switch directly.
I will post a photo of the test bed and AMP6 in a subsequent post. |
|
|
| panomaniac |
Good work, Dave!
Nice to know that you did find a difference in the burned in caps. Over 300 hours is a long time. I don't know of any other AB test of BI vs NBI caps. Well done.
There also seems to be a change in sound with butn in of power supply caps, too.
Looking forward to reading your opinions of the other caps. |
|
|
| toolkit |
| quote: | Originally posted by Davet
I have a number of Russian Teflon 0.1 MFD caps which I may use at some point to bypass PIO caps. |
I am also experimenting with various input caps and I've just come across this mention of bypassing the input caps if PIO - could someone explain why this might be necessary? |
|
|
| Davet |
At this point I don't have a definitive answer for you, but this is one of the test that is planned. I have a number of PIOs which I will A/B with .01 flourinert .01 caps, regular Russian .01 caps, .01 Russian PIO caps, and generic Radio Shack film caps. However, there will be some time before I get to it. I have a lot of caps to test prior to getting to bypassing.
Outside of formal testing I have used the Russian .01 mfd caps for bypassing on any number of caps and I have always heard a positive difference.
I would suggest you give it a shot and let us know what you hear. |
|
|
| serengetiplains |
| Dave, I think the Fluorinerted Russians are 0.056uF which, with the Fluorinert, come in at 0.06uF thereabouts. |
|
|
| Davet |
The following is the first of a series of test of coupling caps to be used in T-Amps. The music selections are many and varied. My overall approach is to listen to thirty seconds of a selection on each capacitor under test unless otherwise stated.. This allows me to maintain some degree of aural memory. At some point I will list all the selections that have sampled for these tests.
This specific series of tests were prompted by a post made by RajaCat. I had the Blackgates most recently in my test bed. So this is the cap that I tested against the Obbligato PIO. The capacitors under test all have had at least 370+ hours on them before testing. This will be the case unless specifically stated otherwise. This specific test took more than 16 hours of listening and the following is a sample of the music to which I listened.
The Blackgates played much louder than the PIO Obbligatos. The Blackgates had a broader (wider) soundstage, but sounded much more two dimensional. The Obbligatos had more air around the performers and the soundstage sounds much deeper. The highs of the Obbligatos sounded a little muted, but sounded more lifelike than the Blackgates. Cymbals when not as piercing with the Obbligatos compared to the Blackgates. The Obbligatos provide the shimmer of the Cymbals and not as edgy or pronounced as the Blackgates.
The bass from the Obbligatos is not as full or pronounced as the Blackgates.
On Sly and the family Stone's - Everyday People the musicians sounded as if they were standing on top of each other. On complex passages there is smearing with Blackgates. The air around the musicians in the Obbligatos presentation makes the performance much more intelligible. The Horns sound brassy with the Blackgates more so than the Obbligatos.
On Wynton Marsalis’ - New Orleans Bump from the album Mr. Lord Jelly Roll the tuba sounds contextually more like a tuba with the Obbligatos. The musicians are spread across the soundstage with the Obbligatos. Beneath the second saxophone solo the bass is bowed twice rather than plucked. This is subtle but one can clearly discern the difference between the bass drum, tuba, and bowed bass with the Obbligatos. The bowing is discernable if you are listening for it with the Blackgates, but it sounds to be more of an overtone to the various sounds in the bass register rather than a distinct instrument.
Although the Blackgates yield a wider soundstage the presentation has no depth and sounds more analytical than life like. The Blackgates yield a perception of more power than the Obbligatos. The Blackgates clearly play louder than the Obbligatos. The Blackgates are most enjoyable when the composition is of a small combo or solo where there is not a lot of complex passages. Solo piano and piano trios the Blackgates are excellent.
On Tony Bennett’s - Steppin’ Out With My Baby the bass from the Blackgates was overpowering. The Blackgates have a larger presentation of the piano – larger than life. Conversely, the soundboard of the piano is broad and percussive with the Obbligatos.
The brush work on Roy Hargrove’s - My Foolish Heart provides a level of detail to focus on. The Brushes on the cymbals allows you to hear the contact withy the various cymbals and the brushes can clearly be distinguished between that and the rivets on the cymbal. There is no etched cut through of the cymbals, but rather just the ring one associates with an accomplished accompanying drummer with the Obbligatos. The brush work with the Blackgates is not as lifelike.
On Bobby Darin’s - A Nightingale Sang in Barkley Square – The violins have a smooth woody tone. There is a harp in the midst of this orchestra and it can be heard if listened to closely. All the instruments of the orchestra are easily distinguished. And the sound comes in layers from front to rear with Obbligatos. With the Blackgates the violins get lost in the mix, because of the complexity of the composition; the violins sound more akin to a synthesizer than strings.
On Dinah Washington – Nice Work if You Can Get It there is no sibilance in her solo and Clifford Brown’s trumpet solo sounds brassy and is separated in space with plenty of air about it with the PIOs. The Blackgates really shinned when it came to the trumpet solo, but the air around the instrument isn’t there. However it certainly sounds like a trumpet.
On Sweet Honey and the Rock’s - I Hear a Knockin which is an A cappella performance of four women. Both sets of caps do a find job of reproducing the performance. The women seem to have bodies with the Obbligatos, there seems to be a life like presence. Whereas, the Blackgates create every nuance of the music, but the liveliness is not there.
On Jon B.’s - They Don’t Know the closely miked bass drum is forceful full bodied. Backup singer voices are clearly spread across the soundstage. The various percussion instruments can clearly be heard with air about them with sharp attack where appropriate with Obbligatos. The Blackgates reproduce the music, but the voices sound like one rather than separate voices.
Zubin Metha's - Pictures at an Exhibition the acoustics of the venue are clearly replicated. There is depth to the soundstage. Power of the tympanis is felt and the various strings can be heard and distinguished. Percussion is sharp and not smothered in the overall orchestration with the Obbligatos. This distinguishing quality is lost with the Blackgates, although the bass is not lacking in the least.
To insure what I was hearing wasn’t biased based on my selection of source material, I listened to The Doobie Brothers Greatest Hits, James Taylor Hourglass, and Led Zeppelin IV. I listened to these albums in their entirety using both caps. The Blackgates provided the broad soundstage and on a few of the Doobie’s tracks there is some interplay between left and right channels and the separation was most pronounced. The loudness is a factor when listening to these albums, but to a lesser degree with James Taylor.
When I switched to the PIOs everything just sounded more life like. I was truly surprised that Led Zeppelin’s - Stairway to Heaven and Black Dog sounded better with the PIOs. The PIOs yielded a new level of enjoyment to these rock classics. There was more separation and definition amongst the performers. For the first time it sounded more like I may have been in the recording studio rather than at a rock concert. The timber of the acoustic instruments is just uncanny with the PIOs. The performances have depth front to rear as well as from side to side.
If power (volume) from the T-AMP is a primary concern the Blackgates provide a much louder performance than The PIOs. A major benefit of the Blackgates is their size. They are small and compact and will easily fit on any of the T-Amp boards taking up minimal real estate. Another bonus is the Blackgates are relatively inexpensive from less than a dollar (US) up to $4 (US) which does not include shipping.
The Obbligatos PIOs are huge and are radial. They require either separate enclosures or a custom enclosure that will encase them with the T-AMP. A draw back is that these caps generate a slight hum which I have not been able to isolate to remove. It has been suggested that this problem goes away when they are enclosed in the chassis; this is not the case for my test platform. The hum is not noticeable unless you are within two feet of the speakers, and this is at a relatively high volume setting. The Obbligatos cost $5.50 (US) each including shipping.
In this shoot out I give the edge to the Obbligatos PIO over the Blackgates. |
|
|
| Davet |
These Russian PIO caps sound very similar to the Obbligato PIOs. The Obbligato PIOs play a little louder, otherwise, I hear very little difference between these two PIOs. There is no variance in the volume settings between the various caps being tested. The volume is set at about 10 o’clock on a scale from 1 – 12. These Russian PIO caps have very little hum compared to the Obbligatos PIOs where this has been a problem.
The soundstage is equally as deep and as wide as the Obbligatos. These Russian PIOs are somewhat smaller than the Obbligatos but not compact enough to easily fit inside a TA-10.1 chassis.
These caps cost $2 (US) each including shipping. Where the Obbligatos cost $5.50 (US) each including shipping. The cost of shipping was to the USA. The Russian PIOs are a value for they perform the same as the Obbligatos at 36% the cost delivered of that of the Obbligatos and are in a slightly smaller package.
When cost and size are taken into account The Russian PIOs are the winners in this round. |
|
|
| serengetiplains |
| quote: | Originally posted by serengetiplains
Dave, I think the Fluorinerted Russians are 0.056uF which, with the Fluorinert, come in at 0.06uF thereabouts. |
My error, the caps are 0.1uF varieties. Not that anything is riding on this difference whatsoever. |
|
|
| recca |
| Any chance you can throw some 2.2uF Jupiter caps in the mix? I'm using them on the passive output of a DAC I have and think they sound great! |
|
|
| Davet |
| quote: | Originally posted by recca
Any chance you can throw some 2.2uF Jupiter caps in the mix? I'm using them on the passive output of a DAC I have and think they sound great! |
Recca,
I still have quite a number of caps yet to test. I started down this path based on the caps I had on hand. I do not have any Jupiters on hand, but I may have some before this is all completed.
As to films that I have on hand are: Radio Shacks, Solens; Auricaps; Obbligatto; and MKPs. In addition I have a number of caps that I need to test as bypasses.
So at this juncture the answer is no, but I have some parts I have to order for a few projects and I may pick some Jupiters up. |
|
|
| recca |
| No problem. I guess I should have phrased it more like, hey Jupiter caps sound pretty good! Try them when you get a chance! I'm still very interested in your project regardless. Its great for all of us! |
|
|
| Davet |
I have been listening to burned Blackgate (BG) and Panasonic FM (FM) caps for this segment of testing. These electrolytic caps have better than 380 hours of burn in time on them. The FM caps are the ones supplied with the AMP6 amplifier kit from 41HZ. Testing these caps took a lot of listening, for these caps are very close in sound and the differences are very subtle, to my ears.
The volume control was kept at the same 10 o'clock position for all tests. I tried to listen to 30 second slices of selections, but occasionally I got caught up in the music and played the whole selection through.
__BG__________________________________________________
The BGs are not as forward and in your face as the FMs. The BGs have a more relaxed presentation and the bass is not as full as the FMs. The BGs are not as fatiguing to listen to long term. I did not detect any pronounced sibilance on female vocals. Cymbals - not being as prominent make for more depth of sound stage.
The bowed bass On New Orleans Stomp has somewhat more air around it than the FMs, but not the life likeness of the Obbligatos. Plucked bass has air around it and sounds more percussive.
The acoustic guitar in the beginning of Stairway To Heaven has the rich sound of the wooden body of the guitar. The vocalist and the flutist have air around them. There is a sense of the sound of the studio.
On James Taylor's Line 'Em Up there is no doubt there is more than one vocalist. You can clearly hear the lead and the background singers.
The BGs provide some depth of sound stage, although it is somewhat shallow. There is less body (presence) to tom-toms which sound more life like. The snares on the snare drum clearly denote that it is a snare drum. Percussion sounds such as triangles, chimes, etc. sound more life like. Cymbals sound more "bell-like" with air around them.
The sound stage is clearly centered between the speakers. There seems to be little sonic information emanating wider than the speakers. The ambiance of the room is better captured by the BGs.
The BGs sound good on solo piano, but the body of the instrument sounds "light". The presence is more restrained - distant.
__FM_________________________________________________
The FMs yield greater presence, but at the expense of detail. The highs are pronounced and forward. There is more sibilance on female voices than with the BGs.
The bowing of the bass on New Orleans Stomp is "muddy". You can hear it but it is not really clear that there is a bass being bowed. You hear the tone, but it is not clearly discernable a bowed bass. Plucked bass sounds "tubby". I would surmise the bass to sound "fat". The attack or lead into a bass note is rounded and smeared not as percussive.
The acoustic guitar in the beginning of Stairway To Heaven sounds almost like a steel guitar. The tone of the strings is pronounced, but the sound (overtone) of the wooden body is lost. The vocalist and the flutist sound like they are playing into the same mike or they are standing atop of each other.
On James Taylor's Line 'Em Up the multiple voices sound like one. It is hard to discern there are multiple vocalist.
The air around the performers is virtually non-existent compared to the BGS. the sound is very two dimensional. I would attribute this to the forwardness of the treble which seems to place cymbals on the same plane as horn players. Percussion such as triangles, chimes, etc sound as if there is a blanket between the performer and my listening position. The muffling I attribute to the more prominent bass.
The FMs Yield a somewhat wider sound stage. The sound on orchestral works seem to be in a much larger room, but the strings sound "tubby".
The FMs really sound fantastic on solo piano. This forwardness places the instrument clearly in the room, and you seem to "feel" the soundboard when the performer blocks chords.
_Bottom_Line__________________________________________
Overall the FMs sound good right out the box (or kit as it were). For rock, electronic music, or heavily engineered recordings the FMs would be my choice. This places the performers right up front and in your face with a broad sound stage.
The BGs are bettered suited to acoustic instruments and female vocalist. The BGs place the performers in the room with with air around them. There is a subtle amount of control to all the instruments and a more life like presentation.
The BGs get the nod here, but only because of the A/B. The FMs are more than adequate if you have not heard any other capacitor. |
|
|
| Davet |
I regret that I haven't had the time to update this thread with new tests. Too much to do, and too little time to get it done. Although, I haven't conducted any new test I have been burning in film caps.
I have a set of Solens and Radio Shack films that have been burning in for more than 600 hours. These will be going up against The Obbligatto, MKT, and Auricaps film capacitors.
If all goes well and I don't get swept up in the music I should have the first round of this shot out completed this week.
Thanks all for your patience. |
|
|
| Davet |
I have listed the music which I use to evaluate the various capacitors. I have quite a few compilation CDs (NBA, Williams-Sonoma, etc.). I have found these CDs expose me to music selections I wouldn't normally purchase.
I have mad selections and burned a Test CD. This allows me listen for specific details and to move on to the next selection with little distraction. This is why I have selections from the same CD are in various places and not back to back.
Most of the selections are acoustic. I know, first hand, what most band instruments sound like. My preference is Jazz and I have included a classical piece and some rock. The following list is the track title; length; artist; and the CD title.
- Excusions (2:49) - Abdullah Ibrahim
Capetown Flowers
- Old Country (5:04) - Diane Reeves
The Grand Encounter
- The River (5:37) - Monty Alexander
The River
- Better Than Anything (4:55) - Nnenna Freelon
Soul Call
- Georgia (6.38) - Charles Lloyd
The Water is Wide
- Thank You (Falettimme Be Nice Elf Agin) (4:46) -
Sly & The Family Stone
I Still Love This Game (NBA)
- New Orleans Bump (3:44) - Wynton Marsalis
Mr. Lord Jelly Roll
- Steppin’ Out With My Baby (2:52) - Tony Bennett
I Still Love This Game (NBA)
- My Foolish Heart (7:36) - Roy Hargrove
Oscar Peterson Meets Roy Hargrove and Ralph Moore
- A Nightingale Sang in Barkley Square (3:01) - Bobby Darin
Dinner Is Served (Williams-Sonoma)
- The Good Life (5:44) - Winard Harper
Winard
- Nice Work If You Can Get It (2:34) - Sarah Vaughn
Dinner Is Served (Williams-Sonoma)
- Once Forgotten (5:44) - Roy Hargrove
Roy Hargrove Quintet with the Tenors of Our Time
- They Don’t Know (4:34) - Jon B.
I Still Love This Game (NBA)
- You Don’t Know What Love Is (5:41) - Winard Harper
Trap Dancer
- Rosewood (2:43) - Wynton Marsalis
Reeltime
- Stairway To Heaven (8:00) - Led Zeppelin
Led Zeppelin IV
- Pictures at an Exhibition - Zubin Mehta NYPO
Mussorgsky & Ravel – Mehta
Track 1 (1:40 – 3:52)
- Line ‘Em Up (4:42) - James Taylor
Hourglass
- Takin’ It to The Streets (3:36) - Doobie Brothers
Best of the Doobies
- Old Devil Moon (5:45) - Cassandra Wilson & Jackie Terrasson
Rendezvous
- After The Dead (2:36) - Wynton Marsalis
Reeltime
- Honeysuckle Rose (3:38) – Jane MonHeit
Taking a Chance on Love
|
|
|
| Finnegann |
| The Obbligato caps are actually Metallized Polypropylene film in Oil, not paper in oli. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi Dave,
Thank you for all your effort. It will be years before I will have the ability to do all this, so your work really helps guys like me.
I have two questions. First, have you ever tried the Wima MKP10s? Supposedly close to the sound of the Auricaps in a different shape and footprint. These are just hard to get in the US. I went to one of the three US importers and they sent me a sample pair recently because none of their didtributors had any in stock. The Inter-Technical Group in Elmsford, NY is where I went. Give them a call and maybe they will send some samples. They are wondering why these don't move here.
Second question, do your impressions and info also apply to the analog output stage of a CD Player too. I know that you are doing these tests with an Amp.
Conrad's point of a more controlled environment is true but I think there is also a much needed place for subjective impressions like these, as well, to narrow down the field of choices for our applications and listening preferences.
Keep it up! And Thank you!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Davet |
Keith,
No, I don't have a set of the Wima MKP10s. I will try to contact them for a set to test.
Based on a suggestion from Panomaniac I no longer use the independent DAC. All the test to date have been from the analogue output of a heavily modified Samsung HD-841 DVD player which feeds into the 41hz-AMP6. The capacitors are switched in the AMP6 circuit.
Conrad's observations may have great validity, but I am not in search of the Holy Grail. I started down this path based on the caps I had on hand. Fellow DIYers have contributed caps for testing. I would gladly attempt to validate Conrad's observations if someone were to provide matched caps.
That being said, I am willing to measure and post the capacitance of the film caps I am currently testing. If such data would be of interest to the community. For the moment my subjective listening will have to do.
This subjective listening does take one helluva lot of time. Going back and forth between caps to try to isolate things I hear and then try to reduce that to words - is a daunting task. I just hope my subjective rantings help the DIY community. |
|
|
| Davet |
| quote: | Originally posted by Finnegann
The Obbligato caps are actually Metallized Polypropylene film in Oil, not paper in oli. |
Thanks for the information regarding the Obbligato. Thus far I don't hear a pronounced difference between the two Obbligatos. The Russian PIO sounds very much like the Obbligato.
There may be criteria for picking the FIO (Film in oil) over the PIO, but my subjective listening matches them as damn near the same. This far I just like the sound of the Obbligatos.
Maybe once I get other ears to listen; they may be able to isolate differences between FIO and PIO. |
|
|
| panomaniac |
Great work, Dave, keep it up!
A couple of questions:
Which Blackgate are you using? There are several types.
I"ve used the C series and the E series (red).
Are you sure the Panasonic are FM series? The 41Hz kit's I've gotten all had FC series input caps. But Jan does switch parts around, so maybe he is shipping FM caps these days.
I'm surprised that you preferred the BG over the Pannies for input caps. Just goes to show it's not always what you expect. I didn't care much for the BGs I heard, but they did not have the long break in period that yours have. Must be something to it!
Again, great work. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi Dave,
Thanks for responding!
When you call for samples talk to Andrew. He was great to work with.
I should have asked this differently, when you test these input caps for the Amp would the evaluations for them as input caps be applicable for them as output caps of a CD Player? In other words, you say the Obbligatos are warm, etc. in the amp, would they would have the same effect as output caps in a CD Player.
I am asking because most recommend the small Wima MKS2 caps for output caps between 2.2uf and 10uf because they sound better than the electrolytics installed and are small enough to fit into the 5mm spacing. But I have both MKP10 4.7uf and Obbligatos 4.7uf film/oil (both are supposed to sound better than the MKS2s) and hope that what is true for your input caps will also be true for output caps! Although I will have to get creative with how to mount them (they are big as you know).
Now about all that listening time... Too bad you didn't live closer, I would enjoy being some of those extra ears! I would bring beer (or coffee) but not both and tough it out along side you! I think this is one of the best parts but not when you're always doing it alone. It is always more enjoyable with several others that are into it too! We all like validation!
BTW, this is great! Thanks!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Davet |
| quote: | Originally posted by panomaniac
Which Blackgate are you using? There are several types.
I"ve used the C series and the E series (red). |
I am using the PK series BGs. You have aroused my curiosity I will get a set of the C series for a future test.
| quote: |
Are you sure the Panasonic are FM series? The 41Hz kit's I've gotten all had FC series input caps. |
My error! The Panasonic caps from Jan were all FCs. I will get a set of FMs and run a comparison at some later date.
| quote: |
I'm surprised that you preferred the BG over the Pannies for input caps. Just goes to show it's not always what you expect. I didn't care much for the BGs I heard, but they did not have the long break in period that yours have. Must be something to it!
|
There is something to the burn in for BGs. The FCs are more than adequate unless you are A/B'ing them against the BGs. |
|
|
| panomaniac |
| quote: | Originally posted by KP11520
when you test these input caps for the Amp would the evaluations for them as input caps be applicable for them as output caps of a CD Player? |
Should do. They serve the sam purpose and are in the same place in the signal path.
FWIW, the tube guys say the red Wimas are on the warm side. But not super detailed. YMMV.
| quote: | Originally posted by Davet
I am using the PK series BGs. You have aroused my curiosity I will get a set of the C series for a future test. |
Don't know if it's worth the bother. IIRC, the C series is the cheapest of the BG. The E series in non polarized, but with orientation. I used 2x1uF connected in opposite directions. I like film caps better. =) But the E series might be worth a listen. They are small, so can go in tight spaces.
| quote: | | The Panasonic caps from Jan were all FCs. I will get a set of FMs and run a comparison at some later date. |
I don't think the FM series comes in small values, that's why Jan ships the FC. FM is supposed to be a better cap, lower ESR. But don't know how it would sound as a DC blocking cap. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Thanks Pano and Dave!
I will stay tuned in!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| sharpi31 |
A while ago I built an integrated gainclone with different coupling caps on each of three different inputs. The three caps are 4uF Russian square paper (in oil?) mbgo type, 2.2uF K75-24 and black gate N 4.7uF (two connected in parallel in different orientations).
With a modified moodlab dac, the black gates are clearly better in my system. More bass weight and definition (maybe related to the 9.4uF total capacitance..?) but also clearer mids and HF.
The K75-24 sound congested and HF sounds detached and aggressive.
The mbgo caps push the performers back but the overall effect is a bit distant and lacking in drive.
I've used other black gates (standard, type C and type Nx) but the parallel N and Nx types are far better than the any of the polar types.
I recently bought some of the obbligato oil caps and have installed these in my bedroom amp - really impressed so far. I haven't done a direct comparison between these and parallel black gate N yet...
I think this would be an interesting comparison, considering how much better the non-polar black gates are compared to the polar ones. |
|
|
| Davet |
The EPCOS MKT Film capacitors, initially, came across sounding a little light. The “fatness” of the bass compared to the Obbligatos is lacking. The bowing of the bass on Wynton Marsalis' New Orleans Stomp is easily identified, but it is not as full bodied as the bass from the Obbligatos.
The highs are balanced compared to the rest of the presentation. The highs are not overly pronounced or “in your face”. This gives the sound stage good depth. The detail of brushes on cymbals and snares is accurate even if a little subdued compared to the Obbligatos. The soundstage is broad and the sound seems to come from well beyond the bounds of the speakers. The ambience of rooms for live recordings is well reproduced.
The overall presentation of these capacitors is low key. The presentation is more like a late night set where the musicians are not trying to blow you out of your chair. There is air around the musicians. The sound from the brass instruments is not as brassy as live horns. This would not be a negative if I had not listened to other capacitors.
I would summarize this capacitor to be clean or relaxed. None of the detail is lost on this cap and you do not have the sense of the musicians standing atop each other. The bass is clean and precise, but does not have that extra body/fatness. Female voices have no sibilance. The sound of the EPCOS MKT films grew on me as I played them. There is absolutely no listener fatigue from listening to these caps.
This capacitor is lacking very little and its strength is its size and cost. This capacitor is small and compact. It will fit easily on the AMP6, SI, and TA-10.1 PC-boards. The bass body may well be filled in with more capacitance if you desire more presence.
These EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors were provided to me by BWRX. These were his favorites capacitors after Auricaps. These caps cost $1.27 (USD) from Digikey.com the Part Number: 495-1127-HD. The cost of this cap less shipping is 7% the cost of an Auricap.
I will test the Auricaps next, but at this point cost and size make this Capacitor a keeper in my opinion.
Capacitance Measurements are 2.23 and 2.24 MFD. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi Dave,
You have good ears and the time you spend putting it to words is not a waste of time. Here is a place that will offer validation!
Have you seen this web-site:
http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html
Were you able to get the Wima samples from Inter-Technical?
Thanks!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi Michael,
You sent something to Dave to build or use as a "Burn in circuit". Is it easy to build? Are you able to share it with others? If so, I am interested in making one!
Thanks!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Davet |
| quote: | Originally posted by KP11520
Hi Michael,
You sent something to Dave to build or use as a "Burn in circuit". Is it easy to build? Are you able to share it with others? If so, I am interested in making one!
Keith |
The circuit is very simple. I use a FM tumer for the signal source. Below is the Mardis burn-in circuit.
The Film caps I am testing with the exception of the MKTs will have better than 600 hours burn-in time on them. I noted the MKTs seemed to get better the more I played them. I suspect they will get better with more time. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hey Dave,
Thank you!
Do you use a 1.5 volt or 9 volt battery or a DC power supply @ how much voltage? How long do batteries last if thats what you use?
Also for the signal, analog RCA output from an FM Tuner?
I guess this is how you "burn in" up to 4 Caps at the same time! That's exactly how many I want to do!
I'll go find a small proto/breadboard so I don't have to solder any of the leads from the Caps!
Great!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| panomaniac |
Well Dave, those EPCOS MKT sound like a great find. Excuse the pun.
From you description, I'd call them "neutral - without loss of detail."
As for the burn-in circuit, it's simple. Put as many caps in it as you like. The idea is to mimic the input circuit of the T-Amps. That's what the battery is for - DC bias. About 3V (2 cells) should be ideal, but as long as it's 2V or more, it shouldn't matter much. The 22uF cap blocks the DC back into the radio.
The radio is just a simple source of line level musical signal. Again, just meant to mimic the input of an amp. I use the earphone jack, but the RCA should do just as well. Don't forget the resistor! Otherwise you'll have an AC short. Any value from 10-50K will work. |
|
|
| BWRX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Davet
This capacitor is lacking very little and its strength is its size and cost. |
Your description of what the Epcos MKT caps sound like jives with what I've heard as well. Great sound at a fraction of the size and price of boutique caps is what they'll get you. The Auricaps were slightly better to my ears but their price is pretty hard to swallow. After all is said and done you should compare your favorite cap to no cap (DC coupled) and see which you like better. I've already made up my mind ;) |
|
|
| rajacat |
| quote: | Originally posted by BWRX
Your description of what the Epcos MKT caps sound like jives with what I've heard as well. Great sound at a fraction of the size and price of boutique caps is what they'll get you. The Auricaps were slightly better to my ears but their price is pretty hard to swallow. After all is said and done you should compare your favorite cap to no cap (DC coupled) and see which you like better. I've already made up my mind ;) |
Hi Brian,
Do you have a link to a source for the EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors?
Thanks,
Roy |
|
|
| Lostcause |
| quote: | Originally posted by rajacat
Hi Brian,
Do you have a link to a source for the EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors?
Thanks,
Roy |
| quote: | | These EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors were provided to me by BWRX. These were his favorites capacitors after Auricaps. These caps cost $1.27 (USD) from Digikey.com the Part Number: 495-1127-HD. The cost of this cap less shipping is 7% the cost of an Auricap. |
;) |
|
|
| Davet |
| quote: | Originally posted by Davet
These EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors were provided to me by BWRX. These were his favorites capacitors after Auricaps. These caps cost $1.27 (USD) from Digikey.com the Part Number: 495-1127-HD. The cost of this cap less shipping is 7% the cost of an Auricap. |
See the above the link is DigiKey |
|
|
| rajacat |
| It's odd but I paste the part number into the search function at Digikey with no result forthcoming. I did get a message that they were having trouble with their site. |
|
|
| rajacat |
| quote: | Originally posted by Davet
See the above the link is DigiKey |
The correct DigiKey part # is 495-1127-ND not HD.
--Roy::rolleyes:
Here is the link:http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...ame=495-1127-ND
I think I will get the 3.3uf version so that perhaps there will be more body/texture to the sound and since they are so small anyway. |
|
|
| BWRX |
| quote: | Originally posted by toolkit
This one in the UK? |
That's the one. It's quite a bit more expensive from Farnell, although still much less than most boutique caps.
There may be 2.2uF MKT's from other manufacturers that sound fine too. I decided to try the one from Epcos way back when because it was the cheapest and had dimensions similar to an electrolytic cap of the same capacitance. You can look for 2.2uF MKP's (polypropylene film) of the same voltage but they will be a bit larger physically than MKT's (polyester film). |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi All,
Dave and Michael,
I have all the parts and I am building the Burn in Circuit. I have a 4 AA battery holder because I intend to use 6 volts. The output from the op amp to the output cap is 6 volts. This is OK? I shouldn't have to change the Cap or resistor value at this voltage , should I?
Thanks for the help!
It's about time I made something that actually did some work around here!:smash: :smash: :smash::whip:
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Davet |
You should not have to do anything else. I use 6 volts as well. There is negligible voltage drain on the batteries during the burn in process.
I used barrier strips with bus strips/bars to connect the caps. You could use wire to tie all the caps together if you so choose in lieu of the bus strip. This allowed me to burn in multiple sets of caps at the same time, and it only takes the turn of a few screws to change caps in or out.
This has been my experience with the circuit. If Michael has something to add I am sure he will chime in. After all it is his circuit. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi Dave,
Beauty!
I bought a bag of insulated black and red aligator clips. I am having 4 pairs wired to the stripboard with 6 inch leads coming out of the hobby box. I could add more if I need in the future, there is a lot of room on the stripboard and room for more holes in the box for more wires too. I am also using a DC connector 2.1 x 5.5 mm panel mount female, so I can change battery holders (3v or 6v or 12v) with the corresponding male DC plug for other projects (lower or higher voltage burn in applications), and I can unplug it when not in use! And finally a panel mount RCA jack for easy hookup to the output of an FM tuner with an IC.
I'll take pics if I ever get a digital cameras!
Thanks again for the design and help!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Davet |
Keith,
It sounds like you have taken the circuit to another level of flexibility. I have a picture of my crude burn in circuit, somewhere. I will try to locate it a post. I will try to post it fairly quickly, for my circuit is utlitarian and looks as if it were built by a cave man.
No, I don't have GIECO insurance at present, but I have slept in a Holiday a some point in my life.:D |
|
|
| Davet |
First let me put forth a disclaimer. I was first introduced to Auricaps about 5 or 6 years ago. I had replaced a set of film caps with Solens which were replaced by Auricaps in a Bottlehead Foreplay I tube preamp. I have never looked back. Based on the unexpected results I subsequently replaced all the caps in my speaker crossover network with Auricaps and I have applied them in various tweaks to DVD and CD players. Prior to these test Auricaps were my boutique capacitor of choice. They just seemed to add a level of audio clarity in my system wherever they were employed.
So, in light of the foregoing I will venture to put forth a critique of the Auricaps compared to all the capacitors that have gone before with special focus on the EPCOS MKTs. The Auricaps seemed to have given me a little fuller bass, but not the presence I got from the Obbligatos. The Auricaps sound ever so right. They have the laid back clean attributes of the MKTs, yet they yield a life like presence.
There is plenty of air around the performers and there seems to be a genuine 3-D texture to the soundstage. Not only do the performers seem to be placed on the soundstage from left to right, but they sound as if they are layered front to back. That is the Bass player in a Jazz group sounds as if he is a few feet behind the vocalist/soloist.
Surprisingly the Auricaps provided the “umph” for rock and R&B performances when called upon to do so. The bass is there and palpable when need be, yet is not overwhelming in acoustic bass performances. When the bass is being bowed; you can sense the rosin flying. Tom-tom drums sound just like that – they are round and full with an air that makes a tom-tom sound like a tom-tom.
Cymbals are not etched or overly loud. This attribute they share with the MKTs. They are well balanced in the overall scheme of sounds, and when the bell of the cymbal is hit it literally sounds like a bell – more so than the MKTs. Female vocalist sound so life like that I feel I could reach out and dance with them. The piano in combo sets sound like they are in the room to the extent I can just feel the power of the instrument. The Auricaps yield much more body on this and other instruments without placing the performers in your lap. The Obbligatos have just a little too much presence for my taste.
The Auricaps propagate a wide soundstage when one is called for; and a smaller one when the performance is smaller. Never is the performance compressed. The air and lightness of the upper register of the piano, and brushes on cymbals and snares is there in the proper balance and composition. The strokes of brushes on drums and cymbals is “spooky” – in that they sound so life like.
All of the films to date seem to pick up details and present them with little effort. There is no smearing and percussion is just more so. Nothing seems to be lost on complex passages with the Auricaps. The MKTs are just light in a good way. The Auricaps just seem to be well bodied and just right in all ranges. They don’t have as heavy a footprint as the Obbligatos. Some would prefer the Obbligatos for their warmth. Obbligatos are more like hot fudge and the MKTs I liken to a cup of green tea. The Auricaps are like hot Chocolate with whip cream topping. To me just right!
Auricaps just have the life like sound of a live performance to me. This is the cap I prefer and these test to date have done nothing to alter that preference. The cost of this cap makes it in my opinion exotic and the cost excessive. You get so close to this cap with the MKT for pennies by comparison and a more manageable package. The Auricaps will fit in a TA-10.1 with no problem, but the MKTs will fit in everything else with little if any jockeying for space.
Based exclusively on sound and sound alone I would pick the Auricap. When sound, size, and cost are taken into account the MKTs are the best value. If you prefer rock or more presence the Obbligatos are more likely to “rock” your boat (pun intended).
The Auricaps measured 2.26 and 2.24 MFDs 200 volts. Cost MSRP $22.56 (USD) Audience (Manufacturer of Auricaps).
These caps may be purchased at varying prices from a number of vendors. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hey Dave,
Nice articulation and review and placement of where your best performers stand. This can help narrow down choices to test for modding anything that needs a better coupling cap, based on budget, the desired effect and improvement (warmth, presence, exact details, etc.).
A few of the guys that do a lot of mods here that I admire, also put the Auricap very high on their list, so that is nice when separate paths reach the same conclusion. There are some reviews about the Obbligatos and they are also all strong, but they haven't gone mainstream in the marketplace yet, so reviews will continue to trickle in slowly (all similar to yours).
It seems that the Oscon MKT and Wima MKS2 are an incredible value because they do sound better than anything installed from the factory (except for some models) and have a small footprint to fit in a small space and usually are just plain cheap compared to the rest!
I just hope you get to try the MKP10s. So far you are echoing what I have read from other modders with a lot of experience and reviews from all over the internet (other forums). The MKP10s should fall in just under the Auricaps. The contest for second and third place will be between the Obbligatos and the MKP10s. I am interested in your impressions. The MKP10s are great for coupling caps in Solid State and the MKP4s are better in Tube applications according to some opinions I read.
Nice work (and very advanced) for a Caveman! LOL
Geico Insurance doesn't matter, there are other possibilities. Do you have long stringy hair, a pronounced forhead and brow bones, scraggly beard and bad rotting teeth? There might be a future in TV for you! There is a new TV show you know! Send the picture of the burn in circuit with your resume, you will be interviewed immediately! (I am just kidding you)
Thanks again!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Dave,
One more quick question. The 22uf electrolytic cap, which way do you put the polarity? I would assume the + side goes towards the caps! Don't want to hurt my tuner!
Thanks!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Davet |
You are correct. The negative lead of the 22 MFD capacitor is attached to the RCA jack. The positive leg goes to the caps.
Maybe the plus leg of the cap should be marked on the schematic which would provide some greater clarity for this one detail. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
DAVE,
You Da MAN! Thank you, now I can finish this little project and burn baby burn! Disco Inferno?
I agree with marking the schematic for newbies like me. I guess some of that reading is starting to pay off. I wouldn't want to send all that DC upstream into my Tuner (I think that's what would happen if the polarity was reversed or maybe the A/C wouldn't flow down, it's time to investigate that)! I am glad I checked first! It's looking good, I am taking pictures but not digital. CVS will have to put them on a CD for me when I make prints! Thanks for all your help!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Radian |
I will run a test tonight with my favorite combo (BlackGate N 4.7uf with silver mica bypass) against the auricaps taken out of my tube pre. Both are well run in by now. The only thing that is a problem is that the auricaps are just 1.0uf, so ultimate bass performance will not be considered. The test will be run on an Amp11 as Charlize could not be brought back to life. :bawling: Her organs will be donated to new creatures arriving soon.:D
Greets,
Klaus |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi All,
So I finished my "Cap Burn In Circuit" Saturday Morning and put it right to work!
I promised pictures of how I built it! I call it the "Cap Burn Crab." It is nice with butter but it hurts my teeth! LOL
Take a look!
Regards//Keith
Complete: |
|
|
| Davet |
The Burn-In Crab looks like it has tentacles more like an octopus, squid, or jellyfish. But, I believe you are more biologically correct for Crabs have six appendages and of course the hard body.
I must say your crab looks a lot better than my stone tablet. ;) |
|
|
| Davet |
The first thing I noticed when switching from the Auricaps to the Solens is the highs. The cymbals sounded ever so more metallic. The brushes on the cymbals and snare on Roy Hargrove’s Once Forgotten is most telling. The sound is not etched, but this is an initial impression. I will have a better sense after listening to the entire test suite.
I noticed a pronounced sibilance on female vocals in the tests suite. On The River the piano has a “tinny” quality to it and not the rich full bodied tone I associate with a grand piano. Horns sound exceptionally good and have a certain brassy openness; this from one who played trumpet at one time. So, I think I have an excellent sense of how brass instruments sound.
The bass is full and not over powering. It seems tight and controlled. The tom-tom don’t sound quite as full (drum like) as the Auricaps. The bowing of the bass is discernable, but is closer to the MKPs in sound. The Auricaps just makes a bowed bass sound like a bowed bass is in the room. The overall sound is balanced with a litle more clarity of the highs.
The soundstage has some depth, but is not as holographic as some of the other caps tested. There is air around the performers but the overall depth is rather shallow and two dimensional. The soundstage has acceptable breadth. These caps reproduce all the inner detail I have heard to date. Despite their lack of depth they sound exceptional on symphonic works and large bands. The ambience of the recording venue is well reproduced.
The Solens make for a more forward sounding performance. I listened to the Bill Charlap Somewhere CD to test listener fatigue. The performance was acceptable and I was able to listen to the entire CD with no regret. This CD features a violin, trumpet, guitar and female vocalist.
I would like to try smaller value Solens as bypass caps. My hope would be the beautiful reproduction of horns and percussion would be captured in the bypass cap. My concern would be the overall sonic balance.
If I had not heard the lack of female sibilance with other caps this cap would be a keeper. I really enjoy the sound of horns and percussion from these caps. For those who prefer rock or R&B these caps sound louder than the MKPs and the Auricaps. They have the presence of the Obbligatos but the highs are more pronounced. This extra presence is probably due to the extra capacitance 3.3 MFD rather than the 2.X MFD. The only major knock is the lack of soundstage depth.
These caps are reasonably priced and available from multiple vendors. The Auricaps and the Solens are physically about the same size, but will only fit comfortably on the TA-10.1 PCB. The cost of the Cap less shipping from Parts Express is $3.07 (USD).
The Solens are 400 VDC metallized polypropylene and measured 3.31 and 3.30 MFD. Solens Capacitors |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi Dave,
Just think, we could use your stone tablet to crack open the crab when the time comes to eat it! Or we could use a screw driver! (Did they invent those yet, we just learned about fire, here in the stone age).
When burning in Caps (non-polarized) for 2 weeks, will it accomplish anything to reverse the contacts after one week so it spends one week with the current/voltage flowing each way?
Obviously the polarized electrolytics only go one way. The leads on the Crab are polarized, the reds are on the + rail with the positive side of the battery and the blacks on the negative (past the resistor). I would assume the electrolytics go the same way.
Thanks!
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Davet |
I love your sense of Humor. I will post a picture of Ye Olde Stone, hopefully sometime today.
I never considered reversing polarity. I just made sure that electrolytics were appropriately connected. The films I just made sure that I had them connected the same way for both caps. Some caps (i.e. Auricaps) have instructions as to which lead should be negative and positive.
I as a rule I orient the film caps so I can read the writing. The lead to the right of the writing I use as the positive lead, and the lead to the left I use as the negative lead.
Once hooked up I just leave ye old stone on and functioning until I need caps for the next set of tests. This last time took 3+ weeks.
Stones are pretty inanimate while crabs by nature consume things. So, keep an eye on your caps. |
|
|
| Davet |
| quote: | Originally posted by Davet
T
The Solens make for a more forward sounding performance. I listened to the Bill Charlap Somewhere CD to test listener fatigue. The performance was acceptable and I was able to listen to the entire CD with no regret. This CD features a violin, trumpet, guitar and female vocalist. |
I erroneously posted the wrong CD. The correct CD was Mark O'Connor's [I]Hot Swing Trio]/I]. In addtion to the instruments listed in the report there is an acoustic bass. |
|
|
| berthej |
Hi Davet
My compliments, it is really a very thorough and insightful test you have undertaken. Also, I am very content with your conclusions so far, as I have invested in several Auricaps for my Amp6s and for the preamp that I have in construction. :cool:
One question: A part from the input caps, is the rest of your Amp6 test board the standard 41Hz kit, or did you insert other modifications?
In my next Amp6 project I plan to change the signal pathway resistors to something, hopefully, better. I found some Soshin resitors from diyclub.biz, that due to their radial layout fit perfectly into the very limited space of the input and feedback resistors. Maybe resistors can be the next hot shootout test. However, due to work, family and other distractions it will be some time before I get my next Amp6 going. Sorry for OTing. :smash:
Again, thanks for your efforts. |
|
|
| Davet |
The only modification to the Amp6 other than input caps and the switching device is the Radio Shack Alps volume control (VR).
I opted to use the stock Amp6 over the other Tripaths (TA-10.1, modified SI, Amp3, etc.) because of the 25 watts of power available. The extra headroom made it easier for me to hear the nuances of the various capacitors under test. That, and I already owned one and wanted a second.
I am curious about the possibilities with resistors in different places in the circuit. The permutations of resistor possibilities is mind boggling.:xeye: In some cases the resistors could easiy out cost the amp (ala Auricaps).
Your query is not really OT. I think the test bed is a crucial part of these test and you should understand what is there or not there, so, you can make an informed decision as to what will work for you in your T-AMP. |
|
|
| dweekie |
I posted a couple times on Shinkoh, Riken, Caddock MK132, and nude Vishay resistors in a couple places on the Trends Modding Potential thread. I'm just finding it a matter of balancing the sound between the caps and the resistors right now. There really isn't a best since it changes depending on the other parts. I've even replaced the Schotkey diode with a slower diode on the outputs and heard some noticeable changes. There's too many parts to tweak, and I'm about ready to just call it quits and be happy with what I have.
However, I still enjoy all the work that has been done and will continue to follow this thread. It's very nice to have a reference as to how a cap will sound versus another cap. Keep up the impressive work :D |
|
|
| Davet |
The biggest suprise I have heard thus far are the generic off the shelf Radio Shack metal film capacitors. This is the closest sound I have heard to the Auricaps in balance and “umph”. I have switched back and forth a number of times and there is just an overall sweetness to the sound of these caps. If you like the Obbligattos you will love the RS films.
The imposing feel of the grand pianos is right on target. The pianos have body and a balanced presentation that to me is just so much more than I ever expected. There is a beautiful balance across the audio spectrum. These caps are not as laid back as the MKPs nor are the anywhere as in your lap as the Obbligatos. The ring of brushes on cymbals is just perfect. The chimes in Pictures at an Exhibition are beyond description, for they are so life like. Tympanis have that in the gut feel that only they yield. I don’t feel there is any need to bypass these caps to get that brassy sound I referred to in the Solens report.
I detected no sibilance from the female vocals. The performance was so life like I had to repeatedly open my eyes to insure the performer was not in the room. Symphonic works reproduced the woodiness of the strings. The ambience of concert halls is portrayed to the extent that one is transported to the venue. These caps reproduce the sound of French horns with that unique tone. The quality is exaggerated when listening to French horns - compared to oboes.
The bass is full, and precise. The clarity is most obvious to me on Sly Stone’s selection from the test suite, where the bass and the bass drum can clearly be discerned as two separate instruments. On the New Orlean’s Stomp the bass register is full and toe tapping. The tom-toms have plenty of air just as one would expect from a drum kit. As to the bowed bass I put my glasses on to make sure the rosin didn’t fly into my eyes.
The sound stage has depth and is layered from front-to-rear (or rear- to-front if you so desire) very much like the Auricaps. The width of the soundstage is broad with plenty of air around the performers. All the detail I have heard from the various film caps is here with these caps, as well. One can clearly hear the closing of valves on woodwinds and the tell tale moaning of any number of keyboardist as they perform.
I opted to test this Radio Shack metal film capacitor combination, because of their immediate availability to a great number of DIYers. These caps are as close as your nearest store for most. I used two caps per side in parallel to get 2.0 MFD per side.
These capacitors are the best sounding I have heard. They are the closest to the Auricaps in sound that I have heard, and have the added bonus of the Solens “brass and percussion” sound. They are wee bit smaller in size than the Auricaps and Solens but larger than the MKPs. I place them ahead of the Auricaps and Obbligatos on value. Unfortunately they don’t look as sexy as the film Obligattos. To me these capacitors are the true giant killers. For approximately half the price of the Obbligatos or one-seventh the cost of the AUricaps. Just a superb sound ffor the money.
I hope that I am not just enchanted by my find and the sound I hear is real. Maybe BWRX and Panomaniac have an explanation as to why these caps sound so good. Is it possible lower ESR, inductance, or some other factor is the reason? Maybe there is someone amongst you who can tell who actually manufactures the capacitor for Radio Shack.
The Radio Shack Generic metal film caps (part number 272-1055) are readily accessible at your local store. The cost is $1.59 (USD) each (or $3.18 for two) and shipping is either shoe leather or gasoline. For others it may be ordered online.
The measurements for these Radio Shack metal film capacitors in parallel are 2.02 and 2.01 MFD. RS Metal Film 1.0 MFD Capacitor |
|
|
| BWRX |
| I didn't even know RS carried film caps! The voltage rating and physical dimensions indicate that it is probably a polypropylene film. Good find Dave. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Talk about, "Out of left field!"
Dave, I've got to hand it to you! Who would ever even thought to consider them, never mind actually testing and listening?
If you said at the beginning that you were going to test these, I can just imagine the flurry of comments and banter! (Baahaaaahaha)
Now we are all crying because we spent all the extra money we had on exotic caps and now we can't even afford Alcohol to help us sooth our woes!
Well, I heard on the news that shortly after you posted that, all Radio Shack stores reported that they actually had customers buying components and not Cell Phones! (Only Kidding)
But you watch, they will be out of stock before you know it! Keep this a secret!
Nice find! This is truly the 'Coupling Cap Reference Thread!"
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| Radian |
I really want to encourage you guys to try bypassing the caps with silver micas of small value. I got some Russian 2.2nf silver micas from ebay and when I bypassed the BlackGates with them the highs improved noticeably and prat improved also.
I can't do my cap test right now because I installed a new clock and I want to first get aquainted with the new sound before doing any cap swapping.
Greets,
Klaus |
|
|
| dweekie |
Davet, which cap? I picked up 4 but one of them was different. I just wanted to check to see which you had.
Edit: Never mind, they sound too close to be different. Just a new label and an ever so slightly different size. |
|
|
| dweekie |
| I know these caps aren't broken in, if they even need it, but they sound great. It has clarity without any of the harshness that usually comes with it. I see that they sell 0.1uf value as well. Anyone know a way to find the manufacturer of these caps? They're made in Taiwan, and I'd love to get them in more values for cheap. |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Dave,
See.... See what you started! LOL!
Do you have RS Stock by any chance?
Regards//Keith |
|
|
| panomaniac |
I have used these RS caps and like them. Just forgot all about them in the sea of other film caps.
Thanks Dave for mentioning them. If I get a chance I'll compare them to the Obbligoto and the Panasonic metal film caps. The Panasonic film caps are about $2.50 each and not bad, but not terrific either.
BTW, I have some 2.5uF 120VAC caps that look a lot like the Rat Shack caps. Made by Intercap http://www.icc107.com/intercap_productover.cfm which is were I suspect Rat Shack gets a lot of their caps. |
|
|
| panomaniac |
OK, just read back thru a few posts. (I've been away at RMAF)
I still favor the Obbligato caps over the Auricaps, but not by much. Trouble is, the Obbs don't fit well in most boxes.
After the show was over we switched over to one of my old Octopus amps form the Mardis mod Trends we had been running all weekend. Everyone immediately agreed it was an improvement.
Not a really fair test. Different chip, different power supply. But I know the sound of the Obbs and the Auris pretty well - and that was a big part of it. The Obbs in the Octopus amp had much more space, a richer sound. I think a lot of it will have to do with the speaker and the room, as well as your personal preferences.
Best bet is to grab a few that DaveT has given top marks and try them yourself.
FYI - details for the unfair comparison:
Mardis mod Trends
* TA2024 amp chip
* Battery power. 8AH SLA + filter.
* Auricap input caps
* 2x2400uF tank caps. Panasonic FM series
Octopus Amp
*TA2020 chip
*Onboard linear regulated power supply
*Obbligato film in oil input caps
*1X2700uF tank cap (FM) + 10000uF Gold tune.
|
|
|
| Davet |
| quote: | Originally posted by dweekie
Davet, which cap? I picked up 4 but one of them was different. I just wanted to check to see which you had. |
The cap that is on the left in your photo are like the four I have. I purchased 1 cap over a year ago and then purchased the other three about two months ago. Having 1 on hand is what gave me the idea to test them. I guess I lucked out in that they appear to all be the same.
The caps had 600+ hours burn in time on them when they were tested.
For those that prefer more bass or presence, you may opt to add yet another cap to each side (3 per side) for a total of 3.0 MFD and a cost of $4.77(USD) per side.
I will include RS caps in the capacitor bypass test which is forthcoming.
If I had any insight I would have purchased some RS stock before posting my findings. :bawling: Duh! |
|
|
| Radian |
Is there anything special one has to do, to not get totally ignored in this forum?
I feel like I broke into an elite circle that does not want to be disturbed by any outsider.
I let you guys know that I plan a cap test with BlackGates vs. auricaps and there is not even anyone responding.
At least some reply like:
"Great I wonder which is better or we did this already".
Would have been great.
The I suggested to try bypassing caps with silver micas and again no response.:mad:
Can you please let me know the „worthy to be considered process“
Greets,
Klaus |
|
|
| KP11520 |
Hi Klaus,
Please don't feel that that you are being ignored. Unfortunately, I find that emotional needs (and all communication has an emotional element) aren't part of the equation throughout this web-site. But maybe that is necessary to keep it more concise on the subject matter and science. Also, when a subject is full stride in the middle of a test, you might get no response until past that point or not at all because everyone is onto another point immediately after. Later someone new to the thread will scan and see your post and say something because it is something they relate to. This always happens to me two weeks later.
I think maybe another reason might also be that Dave did a very nice comparison of the two and nothing needs to be said until you come back with your results to concur or disagree or add something different. If you want to do it for the experience or because your application is different (maybe for a Preamp, Tuner, DAC, etc.) I can see double checking. Or because you have chosen these two caps (because of what you read here) and want to choose which one sounds better to your ears in your amp, then this is the perfect procedure. And again, we would love to hear your results.
Now about the bypassing caps, that is a GREAT idea and I am surely interested, but that should be another thread after we beat this one to death. Why? Because this info will be the foundation to that one. Ultimately, people will be deciding between finding the right one cap here or finding the right one cap here and bypassing it with the right one cap there. Two different camps and the com | | | |
