| Zen Mod |
yes,I searched ;)
victims...or patients : pair of old Philips AD12100/H8
culprits : hardened surround (cloth probably threated with something bitumen-like ) and somewhat soft whizzers
question one: what can I use to soften surrounds , besides burning in ;) ...... just because they're just sleeping several yrs ;
question two:
what's better for whizzer - diluted PVA wood glue (white one,fer sure) or Dammar ?
I have plenty xperience with wood glue in that purposes,but just recently I found Dammar locally ,and didn't bought and tried it yet......
TIA for any answer......OT post and trolling more than wellcome :devilr: |
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| lovechild |
Hi
a friend once managed to softened the cloth surrounds of his old fullrangers with fine oil (like sewing machine oil). Use a Q-Tip or cotton pad and carefully bring the oil on the surrounds and check if it soaked in, if so be happy! if not it probably wont help:(
He then put the speakers in his oven at like 50°C, so the oil gets even more fluid and spreads evenly throu the cloth...
Then let them cool down and play some bass heavy rock music, really ****ing loud -- the speakers will be done when your neightbours ring at the door... :D :D :D
No idea about the dammar question, I only remember that he sometimes found it helpfull to add a layer of tissue paper to fix soft the whizzers, I'd use cheap wallpaper paste, 'cause it's none destructive -- can easily be removed with water...
cheers,
LC
BTW.
How's the Alep J-X doing?
edit: WOW! the 4 letter word is automatically replaced with **** -- that's america!!! |
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| Frank Berry |
| Caution. Won't the oil cause the glue to let go? A friend did the same thing and after a week or so, the cone pulled loose from the frame. |
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| Cal Weldon |
| quote: | Originally posted by lovechild
edit: WOW! the 4 letter word is automatically replaced with **** -- that's america!!! |
Well, Australia actually, but who keeps track?
We don't like the use of coarse language here. It takes away from the emphasis you are trying to achieve and reflects poorly on the user.
#%$*&!@ Got it? ;) |
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| lovechild |
Hey Cal,
| quote: | | Well, Australia actually.... |
Uhhh, sorry!
otherwise I'm absolutely fine with that politics, the ***** stick out more than any word could ;)
@ Frank, I think it depends on the kinda oil -- maybe on the clue thou, then Choky mightget into trouble :devilr: -- but my friends speakers are still in one peace and working well, after more than a year.
cheers
LC |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by lovechild
Hey Cal,
Uhhh, sorry!
otherwise I'm absolutely fine with that politics, the ***** stick out more than any word could ;)
@ Frank, I think it depends on the kinda oil -- maybe on the clue thou, then Choky mightget into trouble :devilr: -- but my friends speakers are still in one peace and working well, after more than a year.
cheers
LC |
maybe Olive oil............but that's little scary.........even for me ;)
now I have Idea.......I'll ask BudP to look here ;)
"I have a cunnin' plan"......... |
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| BudP |
Zen,
Yikes!
How stiff is stiff?
If you have Elmers white wood glue that is almost good enough for a re coat, after you remove the gunk that is there now. Poly Viny Acrylic is what you really really want and it is available whirled wide.
When I worked at Nestorovic's home/lab/speaker factory, we coated all of the paper cone drivers and foam surrounds with the stuff. True PVA never hardens, is always slightly tacky and flexible. It should be quite useful for maybe the back side of the whizzer, because, of course, you want to EnABL the front.....
I do think I would try to remove what is there now, without disturbing the fabric too much. Maybe try 99.9% pure isopropyl alcohol to see if that will loosen its grip? Would hate to try anything more corrosive, but I would be really surprised to see you get this old unknown chemical back to original form.
Maybe a new foam surround..... ducking and running here....
Bud |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by BudP
Zen,
Yikes!
How stiff is stiff?
If you have Elmers white wood glue that is almost good enough for a re coat, after you remove the gunk that is there now. Poly Viny Acrylic is what you really really want and it is available whirled wide.
When I worked at Nestorovic's home/lab/speaker factory, we coated all of the paper cone drivers and foam surrounds with the stuff. True PVA never hardens, is always slightly tacky and flexible. It should be quite useful for maybe the back side of the whizzer, because, of course, you want to EnABL the front.....
I do think I would try to remove what is there now, without disturbing the fabric too much. Maybe try 99.9% pure isopropyl alcohol to see if that will loosen its grip? Would hate to try anything more corrosive, but I would be really surprised to see you get this old unknown chemical back to original form.
Maybe a new foam surround..... ducking and running here....
Bud |
hey man...tnx to that..........
so -you worked with old Mile .......Mioljub Nestorovic,legend of Yu audio electronics........
I still have letter from him,hand written, where he gives me few tips for his "20W Lab amp" ,which he made for (lemme translate) "Phonetic and Speech Pathology Institute" in Belgrade........
I have Xerox of entire script for that project,along with OPT winding sheet............
Kudos to him ;)
I'll try with alcohol for starters........
what you say for Dammar thingie?
and-can I bug you for EnABLE pattern when ..........I really need it for more than one pair of spks.........various.......
btw-part of day I spent listening one AD1265/M4.............boy......these boyz really were engineers........12" with soul of nice tweet........I can't wait to hear what some tweeks will do for that already unique driver.........
edit:
I really misstracked thinkin' about old man Mile....
I can make tomorrow few pic of real stuff......I'll not hesitate to lay few strokes of PVA on cone,but origigi thing on surround was (I think) semi-sticky kind of tar - bitumen looking goo........or it was just black rubber -cement
it's pretty hard talking about things with ,say, local names ........cement is completelly different thing in my country than in West;
hehe- rubber and cement for us are two totally exclusive things......
anyway.......
PVA whitie is ordinary wood glue ? diluted with water for our purposes?
and......rubber cement is mebbe Tip-Top glue for bike tyres ?
;) |
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| BudP |
Zen,
The Elmer's is not quite as flexible as PVA. You should look around in chemical supply houses maybe. Small amounts can be gotten from Parts Express, as glue for attaching cone plus surround and spider to the metal basket. You will likely need more than those small bottles and I do not know what sort of labor you would have to perform to get it through customs. I do not know what Dammar is so I cannot comment on it.
I would love to have the documents you speak of. Mioljub once told me that my difficulty with hearing words from speakers was a well known problem in his homeland and that he had studied the problem. Did not think there was any help for me except the EnABL process, which he knew about and did not want to use.
He was afraid there would be great legal turmoil caused by this knowledge and would not even allow Ned, his son, to provide the mathematical models I still so badly need. Ned had just finished with studying boundary layer physics, I believe at Stanford, not certain. He was very excited when he discovered what I was doing and taught me all I know about boundary layers.
Truly intelligent and refined people, and Bebe still looked like her famous painting the last time I saw her.
I will be happy to provide patterns for you, though if you have Corel Draw, of any vintage, that would help and if you or a friend has Auto Cad I have a lisp routine that will generate a conic section with the blocks in the proper place, from just four simple measurements, but it needs Auto Cad to run.
Bud |
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| Cal Weldon |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zen Mod
question one: what can I use to soften surrounds |
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| planet10 |
Zen Mod,
I have termed the condition "Stiff Surround Syndrome" -- i have many, many drivers i have been looking for a cure for. No success yet and i have tried all sorts of solvents -- most effective (and that not much) has been acetone.
I did have a trick suggested that i still have to try (waiting for the weather to warm up as this needs to be done outside or under a fume hood). The trick is to mix the solvent with an oil... the solvent dissolves the gunk and then the oil carries it away. Messy i'm told.
As to the whizzer, i have found that damar works well to stiffen a whizzer -- the mamboni treatment -- off which i have seen a number of variations in vintage drivers -- looks to be a good idea too.
The best PVA i have found for cones is puzzlecoat -- the brand i use now is called ModPodge. I prefer the shiny finish.
<http://www.t-linespeakers.org/design/tweeks.html>
These drivers have damarred whizzer, puzzlecoated cones, and Douglas Fir FE167 phase plugs died blue with food colouring.
dave |
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| doorman |
I wonder if the blue phase plugs imparts a "cool" presentation, or??!
Don |
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| Zen Mod |
boyz
tnx for all answers
I'll be back later,hopefully with some pics ;
and with more questions ........
P10 - I know this (your page ) more than well ;)
Cal's pic is worth more than 1000 words....... exact chemical name (proper term?) is exactly what I need ;) ....bingo.....I'll search for that solvent locally
EDIT:
P10.......I still owe you Fried's pics........as soon I manage them from happy user...........;) |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by BudP
Zen,
...................
I would love to have the documents you speak of..........................
I will be happy to provide patterns for you, though if you have Corel Draw, of any vintage, that would help and if you or a friend has Auto Cad I have a lisp routine that will generate a conic section with the blocks in the proper place, from just four simple measurements, but it needs Auto Cad to run.
Bud |
that little book (script,project ,whatever ) is on my native ;
besides complete schmtc for amp, winding sheet for OPT there are also some graphs where Old Man compare various output configurations ......vs. damping factor,distortions etc.
tell me what you need,besides drawings and I'll try to translate (me Tarzan,you Jane) that for you
;)
ZM Weissmueller
ps. Corell Draw and CAD is not problem |
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| Zen Mod |
uff
beeeezzzzzzyyy day.... just didn't manage to make few pics of my Philips beauties........:dead:
anyway - one more question.......
there is thing called "bitulit" in my country.
it's liquid tar , used as primer in construction work ,before applying melted tar or whatever named is.......
I know fer sure that few ppl around used "bitulit" for surround treating ;
one thing is- that dried goo on Philips surrounds looks exactly as sorta tar substance ; is it out of mind thinking that few tiny layers of "bitulit" on these surrounds can bring them to life.......dissolving old goo ?
anyway-what's exactly that semi-sticky goo on nice Altec and JBL and other pro driver surrounds? |
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| Cal Weldon |
My concern with that is that you have to ensure the solvent used is the same as the original. In the roofing business that is what we call resaturating. In essence, all that has happened is the original solvents have gassed-off leaving you with a stiffer goo. Unfortunately, I have never found the surround smelled like asphalt or coal tar and therefore would be a little hesitant using a cut back version of those. See if you can find the butyl cellosolve as I have not had any problems with that stuff until it comes in contact with a foam surround. It wasn't available locally so I ordered it from the States.
I am hoping someone will look in that knows the best solution. Hate to steer you in the wrong direction. I'm a little more brave with my stuff than someone elses. ;) |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cal Weldon
...................... See if you can find the butyl cellosolve as I have not had any problems with that stuff until it comes in contact with a foam surround. It wasn't available locally so I ordered it from the States.
................................... ;) |
I know few ppl in chemistry related jobs......so I hope that with their help I'll find adequate solvent............your pic gives me 'nuff info,I think........
anyway- do you know what's that original sticky drek ,seen on some origigi woofs.....?
:clown:
two pics as present for you..........
:devilr: |
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| Zen Mod |
like I promised (seems mostly to my self ;) ) there are few pictures;
first picture is surround from top........face of spk;
there is little to see of mentioned tar-like goo ,but this goo is actually protruded through pleating from lower side ,where is in fact applied.
ok-1/4 |
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| Zen Mod |
| same view as previous,but closer |
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| Zen Mod |
3/4
view from back side |
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| Zen Mod |
same as previous,but closer
just to mention.....not just this Philips 12" is sorta "painted" with tar goo from back side.........even mighty AD1256/M4 are........ |
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| planet10 |
All the SSS drivers i have, have a separte coated cloth surround. You wil have to be careful as you play with the integral paper surrounds... some isopropanol to clean away the cat hair would be a good start.
dave |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
All the SSS drivers i have, have a separte coated cloth surround. You wil have to be careful as you play with the integral paper surrounds... some isopropanol to clean away the cat hair would be a good start.
dave |
hehe
look better at first two pics .....it is coated cloth surround
cat hair seen from back side is probably residue of originally used damping material.......not asbestos based ;) fer sure.
and- yes .......the other pair of oldies - AD1256/M4 have integral paper surround |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zen Mod
look better at first two pics .....it is coated cloth surround |
You are right... the pictures from the back fooled me (i looked at them in a different session)
dave |
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| Geoff H |
Hi Zen, just saw your request in the other thread.
The bitumen paint I use says to thin it use 5% mineral turpentine, so I figured that would act as a solvent. It did on the little Pannasonics, but not on some old 10" Westwells, which also have matt black paint on/in the surrounds (FS @ 120Hz). So it may help.
That fibrous stuff on your surrounds would not be helping. Acetone may help remove it, but it may also dissolve the cone/surround and surround/frame adhesive.
On the mineral turps. It does creep, and will end up on the radiating surface, which doesn't seem to hurt, but I like the bitumen to flow on the edge of the cone, to reduce edge resonances.
Corrugated cloth surrounds are available in Australia, they might be available in your neck of the woods.
Good luck with them, I think they're worth preserving.
Geoff.
Edit: He should duck'n'weave, BudP that is. Foam, tut tut. |
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| Geoff H |
Zen, a couple of questions.
Are these speakers the ones you posted in the B200 thread?
Now for your thinking cap. Back in 75-76 a good friend of mine was building (commercially) a range of systems, mostly with Philips drivers.
The larger ones were fitted with 12" bass drivers with a butyl rubber surround, rated at 40 watts, and IIRC correctly 27 Hz. I am certain that they had ceramic magnets.
There was an alternative. A bass driver with a butyl rubber impregnated cloth surround. I am sure they were Philips, but they could have been SEAS or Scanspeak.
The weave (similar to that on spiders) on those stiff surrounds looks just like b-r impreg. jobs.
Also, do the spiders feel stiff?
Best check with an industrial chemist type.
Geoff
Edit: What happened to the "eye"? |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Geoff H
Zen, a couple of questions.
Are these speakers the ones you posted in the B200 thread?
Now for your thinking cap. Back in 75-76 a good friend of mine was building (commercially) a range of systems, mostly with Philips drivers.
The larger ones were fitted with 12" bass drivers with a butyl rubber surround, rated at 40 watts, and IIRC correctly 27 Hz. I am certain that they had ceramic magnets.
There was an alternative. A bass driver with a butyl rubber impregnated cloth surround. I am sure they were Philips, but they could have been SEAS or Scanspeak.
The weave (similar to that on spiders) on those stiff surrounds looks just like b-r impreg. jobs.
Also, do the spiders feel stiff?
Best check with an industrial chemist type.
Geoff
Edit: What happened to the "eye"? |
beauties in B200 thread are AD1256/M4 (AlNiCo);condition as written there ;
these ones are AD12100/HP8 , ceramic magnet ; as seems to me surround is main reason for stiffness ,not spider.
and surround is clearly made from cloth .
btw-I have somewhere here just one AD12100/W4 - that's variant with rubber surround,black dustcap and Fs around 19Hz.......
...you lost me with :| quote: | | What happened to the "eye"? |
? |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | | Originally posted by Geoff H What happened to the "eye"? |
It was time for a change...
dave |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
It was time for a change...
dave |
now I figured .........but I'm still puzzled :clown:
btw.......it's really sorta Yes cover ;)
better that than King Crimson one :devilr: |
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| Geoff H |
It does have a "Yes" look to it. I feel sorry for the younger generation. They missed out on Yes, Supertramp, Steeleye Span (not Steely Dan) and Jethro Tull to mention a few.
AD12100/HP8 could be the one with the Butyl Rubber impregnation.
AD12100/W4 sounds like the main one we were using. Rolled rubber surround. OK up to about 700 Hz.
At the time, we were hooked up to the 3-ways, cause that's what sold well. Then we discovered big 2-ways from California.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen the Philips Speaker Design Handbook for a few years.
I might just have to get close to the edge, down by the river. Nice. |
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| BudP |
Geoff,
I have a copy of what is called "Building HI FI Speaker Systems". With Phillips as the presenter and M.D. Hull, C, Eng, A.M.I.E.R.E. listed as the author. Is this the book you are referring to? I would be happy to scan what, if any, data you might want and post it for you.
Bud |
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| Geoff H |
Thanks Bud. That does sound like the book. Not for me though. Zen might want some data from it. We need to identify what the surround is treated with. If it is butyl rubber, Zen could have a problem. Once it goes hard, I think there is little that can be done to restore it without dissolving everything else.
Regards,
Geoff |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by BudP
Geoff,
I have a copy of what is called "Building HI FI Speaker Systems". With Phillips as the presenter and M.D. Hull, C, Eng, A.M.I.E.R.E. listed as the author. Is this the book you are referring to? I would be happy to scan what, if any, data you might want and post it for you.
Bud |
| quote: | Originally posted by Geoff H
Thanks Bud. That does sound like the book. Not for me though. Zen might want some data from it. We need to identify what the surround is treated with. If it is butyl rubber, Zen could have a problem. Once it goes hard, I think there is little that can be done to restore it without dissolving everything else.
Regards,
Geoff |
yes...... (too old for R'n'R........too young to die.......... :clown: )
BudP -can you just look is there any info regarding surround type for AD12100/HP8..........even if Cal's post ( http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...546#post1187546 ) about 2-butoxyethanol seems promising , it's wiser to check things twice |
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| BudP |
Zen,
This particular edition has no reference to the AD12100/HP8. Does refer to AD12200/W and AD12650/W high performance woofers but none of the technical charts throughout the book make any reference to the surrounds or materials they are created from. None of the other catalog data I have goes back past 1992 so no help there either.
Sorry,
Bud |
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| Geoff H |
Zen, BTW, I got "close to the edge" last night, and trimmed the remains of my domes, no river of tears though! while Yes was playing!
Today, shaping plugs, and taking FRs as I go. Interesting stuff. Top end just keeps getting sweeter and sweeter, and still loads of dynamic range. |
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| Zen Mod |
| quote: | Originally posted by Geoff H
Zen, BTW, I got "close to the edge" last night, and trimmed the remains of my domes, no river of tears though! while Yes was playing!
Today, shaping plugs, and taking FRs as I go. Interesting stuff. Top end just keeps getting sweeter and sweeter, and still loads of dynamic range. |
;) |
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| 78_towncar_460 |
BudP,
You worked at Nestorovic Labs? Any info on that?
I have a pair of Speakerlab speakers and I want to know as much as I can about them. I know he had a hand in the design as I have been told by an ex-employee of Speakerlab.
I tried to email you but I don't have enough posts. I usually just read. |
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