Open baffle speakers -
Dual 21" Woofers 45-330 cycles 99 db sensitive
Dual JBL 2123J 330-1400 cycles 105 db sensitive
Heil Air Motion Transformer 1400 up - broad band notch filter 96 db sensitive
Horn loaded subwoofer 50 cycles down
Quad Amped - No eq needed with high sensitivity/QTS bass drivers
Sound is HUGE and natural with excellent bass definition and impact. Dynamics are very good.
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Dual 21" Woofers 45-330 cycles 99 db sensitive
Dual JBL 2123J 330-1400 cycles 105 db sensitive
Heil Air Motion Transformer 1400 up - broad band notch filter 96 db sensitive
Horn loaded subwoofer 50 cycles down
Quad Amped - No eq needed with high sensitivity/QTS bass drivers
Sound is HUGE and natural with excellent bass definition and impact. Dynamics are very good.
Rocky said:U r crazy
How would you rate their performance compared to your various horn setups?
It is very good - lacks the ultimate in dynamics you get with a good 5 way horn systems but still amazing. It is very coherent - I used my Acoustat Spectra 3 fullrange electrostats as one reference when building these. These whipe them up.
Here is a comment from a freind that has heard many of my horn systems:
"i think your current setup ranks up there among your best. that dipole bass was super clean and seemlessly integrated with your subs. i would have to say that i have never heard anything as good."
Others have said pretty much the same
Re: Re: WMTMW Open Baffles
Hello,
I actually had a working system with these woofers and 15" UREI coaxials (PAS woofer and Emilar compression driver- BIG MTM) and although it was very good I went with the 10's and the Heils in the MTM. It's much better to my taste.
The 21" Madisons are great and don't really need any eq on the 24" wide baffle with 12" wings. I high pass them at 50 hz. If you don't they will go lower but at the expense of slight 'boom' or overhang and ultimate SPL.
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Hello,
I actually had a working system with these woofers and 15" UREI coaxials (PAS woofer and Emilar compression driver- BIG MTM) and although it was very good I went with the 10's and the Heils in the MTM. It's much better to my taste.
The 21" Madisons are great and don't really need any eq on the 24" wide baffle with 12" wings. I high pass them at 50 hz. If you don't they will go lower but at the expense of slight 'boom' or overhang and ultimate SPL.
Wow, those are cool! I'd love to hear them.
Double 21s? Now that should move some air.
Those must get pretty loud without the diaphragms moving much.
In the same sort of style, a buddy of mine in California built a double 18 OB last year. 2 Eminence 18s front to back, an Eminence BETA-12LTA fullrange for the mids, ScanSpeak on top. All passive filtered. You can see them on stage in the photo below.
Good work! Keep it up, it's inspiring!
Double 21s? Now that should move some air.
Those must get pretty loud without the diaphragms moving much.
In the same sort of style, a buddy of mine in California built a double 18 OB last year. 2 Eminence 18s front to back, an Eminence BETA-12LTA fullrange for the mids, ScanSpeak on top. All passive filtered. You can see them on stage in the photo below.
Good work! Keep it up, it's inspiring!
Attachments
Magnetar said:
The drivers are PHL 1120s and B&G IB12 subs. B&G was getting out of the IB sub business and blew out those subs for a song. Hardly the last word in SOA bass driver, but the specs and price was right to get my feet wet with OB bass.
They do sound good, the AMT/PHL combo is probably the best I've ever heard in that range. The bass sounds good, actually great, but I think it could be better with better drivers. Perhaps I should look at those Madisons, do they really sound OK up to 330 hz? I have a set of Hartley's here, maybe I'll pull the 24s out of them.
JohnL said:
The drivers are PHL 1120s and B&G IB12 subs. B&G was getting out of the IB sub business and blew out those subs for a song. Hardly the last word in SOA bass driver, but the specs and price was right to get my feet wet with OB bass.
They do sound good, the AMT/PHL combo is probably the best I've ever heard in that range. The bass sounds good, actually great, but I think it could be better with better drivers. Perhaps I should look at those Madisons, do they really sound OK up to 330 hz? I have a set of Hartley's here, maybe I'll pull the 24s out of them.
I like the PHLs! Used the 3451 for a while with the AMT's. They sound very much like the JBL 2123's I'm using now -
The Madison is excellent (not just OK) to 400 Hz if the low pass is steep. Bi-amping is what I like with a 4th order slope. Listen to a string bass or drum set with these on an open baffle and you'll get an ear to ear grin.
Here is what a freind said about a recent gathering at my place --
" Hats off to Magnetar for another great "Ears and Beers"
his system is simply jaw dropping, I had so many big grins during dynamic music that my cheeks hurt. From the obscure to Classical it was all great music, good food, drink and laughs........hats off Mike!"
To say that I am astonished as to what I'm seeing here would be an understatement. Those are dipoles, correct Magnetar? Supplemented by monopoles below 40-50hz (as per SL)?
Just a little reminder (there's more) why I'm rubbing my eyes to believe what I'm seeing LOL : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...09&perpage=10&highlight=Linkwitz&pagenumber=2
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60033&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=3
Can't say things haven't taken a turn for the better LOL. Better late than never I suppose.
cheers,
AJ
Just a little reminder (there's more) why I'm rubbing my eyes to believe what I'm seeing LOL : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...09&perpage=10&highlight=Linkwitz&pagenumber=2
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60033&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=3
Can't say things haven't taken a turn for the better LOL. Better late than never I suppose.
cheers,
AJ
DeonC said:PS. I forgot to add- how about making some open-baffle Karlsons with the 21" Madisons? Just a thought...
Enjoy,
Deon
Hello, the karlsons still are the winner for PURCUSIVE feel it in your chest slam unless you use a big horn - that's with a maybe - most horns I've heard can't do a drum kit as well as a Karlson
- I have a dipole 21 front/rear loaded Karlson slot dipole here for a single 21. It' s really sweet in the bass BUT it's 4 feet deep and doesn't do the low mid and upper bass (150 up) as well as the dual 21's on the OB. Because of my choice of mid drivers I needed a bass system that works higher correctly. The twin 21's are killer to about 400 if you use a 4th order electronic low pass.
AJinFLA said:
The low bass is horn loaded -
Are these better than a good horn? Maybe in a couple of ways but surely not in all. It is a compromise as with all speakers. The main compromises with dipoles have already been addressed in my previous posts you linked to ..
If you knew me you would understand I have built many different types of 'low-compromise' systems - I built the original linkwitz system when he put it in Speaker Builder years ago except I used much better bass drivers- it was OK - nothing like this. Like many other sytems I have gotten tired of I image this will end up becoming just another pile of wood to burn in the fire pit.
I was looking to do something different - as you can see I used a completely different system then the linkwitz baffles most people copy plus I use no eq and high pass the bass drivers. Because of the size of the drivers and the horn loaded low bass it would take more than ten good 12" drivers to 'keep up' in the midbass with these - and maybe 20 12" dipoles to keep up in the low bass
I did this knowing
1) I didn't want to boost the naturul response of the bass driver like linkwitz does and use more power to compensate for using the wrong drivers to begin with.
2) I wanted much higher SPL capability then something like the orion.
3) I wanted less dynamic compression then something like the orion.
4) I wanted the bass drivers to operate to 300 cycles with little compromise.
5) I didn't want to follow in someones 'footsteps'
6) I wanted to try a system that has dipole radiation from the bass all the way out to the highest treble using high efficiency dynamic drivers.
7) I wanted to use a WMTMW format to load the room differently than the orion. I have had the big Dunlavy speakers and they were OK in my room in the bass but very compressed and anemic sounding - I wanted better.
8) I wanted a system that was as cohesive as my full range Acoustats with REAL DYNAMICS and bottom end power and a wider listening window and freindlier load. It's difficult to do this (cohesive) with horns and still have a wide listening area - mother nature is at odds with widely space horns -
Yes, of course. I knew there was a rational explanation. Since the advent of the internet and speaker sites such as these, there has been an explosion of sorts, of speaker experts who once toiled in obscurity (there seem to be dozens here on this site alone, you, Chops, et al), unknown, who can now proclaim their greatness and knowledge, with a computer and a camera, easily surpassing those such as that Linkwitz character. Who woudn't know a good speaker driver from a shoe on the floor, much less know how to properly design a loudspeaker.
Your speakers would obviously handily outperform an Orion in a small room and fit in quite easily with most decors, much less most SAF's. The Orion's, designed for arena sized rooms, is pretty much a piece of crap compared to what you (Magnetar) could conjure up with your enormous technical resources. I'm not sure why you would even bother to mention the Orion in the same breath with such greatness as your design. Now I know the Audio Artistry Beethoven is a shade closer in size to yours, though still much smaller, but again, judging by your computer typed statements, your digital camera and an unamed associate, clearly, the AA's would be absolutely trounced by yours also.
Instead of your buddies, have you considered having Shannon Dickson/John Atkinson
over to listen? For our worldwide audience who may not know who this is: http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/328/
Or better yet, send them in for review and measurement .
Wouldn't it be something to see him write "the greatest single component I have ever heard, since the last greatest, the Beethoven, now relegated to unlistenable, by the mighty Magnetars design". Wow, that would be something. They would of course mention your 30+ yrs as a nuclear? engineer, the white papers, the various speaker technologies associated with you, etc. We could then see with our own eyes, the ruler flat response, on axis, 30, 60deg off, both in the horizontal and vertical planes. I'd be really interested in the vertical. Ditto the no eq dipole response. Some anechoic, as well as in room type response would be fabulous. An accelerometer somewhere for that tiny cabinet perhaps? CSD? (yes I know we already did FR)
Then maybe some SL style (sorry to mention this idiot again) distortion testing of the system. BTW, do you have anything like this? Measurements? Or is it below your speaker genius to perform such trivialities? Sorry to ask such silly questions, but I'm kind of impressed with those fancy graphs and equations on SL's (ooops, mentioned him again), "technobabble" as I once heard it described by another speaker brainiac, it at least gives the "appearance" that he might have a clue what he talking about, even when you (and others) make it plainly obvious that he does not. And back it up with facts of course. Except the graphy, equations type. You know, like "I say it's so" or better yet "several witnesses say it's so", so it is...and so forth.
In re-hashing the old thread (good humor for sure) I almost completely forgot to ask what became of the Magnapole? Was the concept further developed?
I guess I'll just have to wait for the data now. Or more comments from friends. Our European viewers must just be rushing out to make such a small (with suprising output, given its size) design for their living spaces, knowing that it would outperform an Orion
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf http://www.linkwitzlab.com/TAC-review.htm (pleas ignore those ridiculous graph things). Others (like me) might just be jealous that yours is bigger (much) that theirs type thing. In a manly sort of way. Plus you didn't have to copy anybody http://www.legacy-audio.com/2004/whisper.html with that tremendously unique idea of an WMTMW. It must have taken years of research and formulation to come up with such a format.
BTW, any pictures of what must be the worlds smallest subwoofer, capable of horn loading below 50hz and by "sub", hopefully meaning down to at least 20hz, maybe as low as 15hz? Something my 2 cu ft subs can do easily? In quite a few living rooms.
Like I said, I'm glad you've come around on the whole dipole concept now.
cheers,
AJ
Your speakers would obviously handily outperform an Orion in a small room and fit in quite easily with most decors, much less most SAF's. The Orion's, designed for arena sized rooms, is pretty much a piece of crap compared to what you (Magnetar) could conjure up with your enormous technical resources. I'm not sure why you would even bother to mention the Orion in the same breath with such greatness as your design. Now I know the Audio Artistry Beethoven is a shade closer in size to yours, though still much smaller, but again, judging by your computer typed statements, your digital camera and an unamed associate, clearly, the AA's would be absolutely trounced by yours also.
Instead of your buddies, have you considered having Shannon Dickson/John Atkinson
over to listen? For our worldwide audience who may not know who this is: http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/328/
Or better yet, send them in for review and measurement .
Wouldn't it be something to see him write "the greatest single component I have ever heard, since the last greatest, the Beethoven, now relegated to unlistenable, by the mighty Magnetars design". Wow, that would be something. They would of course mention your 30+ yrs as a nuclear? engineer, the white papers, the various speaker technologies associated with you, etc. We could then see with our own eyes, the ruler flat response, on axis, 30, 60deg off, both in the horizontal and vertical planes. I'd be really interested in the vertical. Ditto the no eq dipole response. Some anechoic, as well as in room type response would be fabulous. An accelerometer somewhere for that tiny cabinet perhaps? CSD? (yes I know we already did FR)
Then maybe some SL style (sorry to mention this idiot again) distortion testing of the system. BTW, do you have anything like this? Measurements? Or is it below your speaker genius to perform such trivialities? Sorry to ask such silly questions, but I'm kind of impressed with those fancy graphs and equations on SL's (ooops, mentioned him again), "technobabble" as I once heard it described by another speaker brainiac, it at least gives the "appearance" that he might have a clue what he talking about, even when you (and others) make it plainly obvious that he does not. And back it up with facts of course. Except the graphy, equations type. You know, like "I say it's so" or better yet "several witnesses say it's so", so it is...and so forth.
In re-hashing the old thread (good humor for sure) I almost completely forgot to ask what became of the Magnapole? Was the concept further developed?
I guess I'll just have to wait for the data now. Or more comments from friends. Our European viewers must just be rushing out to make such a small (with suprising output, given its size) design for their living spaces, knowing that it would outperform an Orion
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf http://www.linkwitzlab.com/TAC-review.htm (pleas ignore those ridiculous graph things). Others (like me) might just be jealous that yours is bigger (much) that theirs type thing. In a manly sort of way. Plus you didn't have to copy anybody http://www.legacy-audio.com/2004/whisper.html with that tremendously unique idea of an WMTMW. It must have taken years of research and formulation to come up with such a format.
BTW, any pictures of what must be the worlds smallest subwoofer, capable of horn loading below 50hz and by "sub", hopefully meaning down to at least 20hz, maybe as low as 15hz? Something my 2 cu ft subs can do easily? In quite a few living rooms.
Like I said, I'm glad you've come around on the whole dipole concept now.
cheers,
AJ
AJinFLA,
I read your post above. I read a similar post on one of the threads you referenced. Seems to be a theme in the posts.
I read Magnetar's list of his design criteria and it seemed to make sense to me. He has stretched and built something a little different, at least different from what I have seen. I like it. Having built my first OB system I am interested.
Maybe you don't agree with his approach, but are you offering anything different and better or at least providing some constructive criticism? Why attack his effort? What am I missing?
I read your post above. I read a similar post on one of the threads you referenced. Seems to be a theme in the posts.
I read Magnetar's list of his design criteria and it seemed to make sense to me. He has stretched and built something a little different, at least different from what I have seen. I like it. Having built my first OB system I am interested.
Maybe you don't agree with his approach, but are you offering anything different and better or at least providing some constructive criticism? Why attack his effort? What am I missing?
Hi Martin,
Magnetar and I are buddies from waaay back . BTW, did you read both (highly sanitized from the originals) threads in their entirety?
I guess you just don't see the irony of Magnetars OB's the way I (or some others who may remember the original threads) do Martin.
To quote Rudolf
And Magnetar
Yeah, there's a theme in my responses alright. Why does he attack SL's approach? Then build it LOL.
cheers,
AJ
Magnetar and I are buddies from waaay back
. BTW, did you read both (highly sanitized from the originals) threads in their entirety?I guess you just don't see the irony of Magnetars OB's the way I (or some others who may remember the original threads) do Martin.
To quote Rudolf
And Magnetar
Yeah, there's a theme in my responses alright. Why does he attack SL's approach? Then build it LOL.
cheers,
AJ
Folks -
I built the linkwitz system FIRST (years ago), improved it, then bashed it - I believe after going through all that trouble to find it wasn't worth the parts cost and labor to be a good reason to have the 'right' to bash it.
Has this stalker built anything like what I just did? NO, has he ever had a full range horn system? -NO - How about linkwitz? NO - Why mention his name? - because i am comparing what I wanted to acheive to what I've already built and to a dipole speaker most DIY builders are aware of-
Like i said in my first post to the stalker - I had certain things I wanted to achieve in this speaker project, executed a plan and mostly achieved the goals. That's the way I try do things -
These speakers are EASY to build but require a GOOD sub if you want the bottom end right and seven channels of amplifiers and a good electronic crossover - that's where real cost can come in.
If you don't have the amps, crossover and sub try something like Bill F built - I bet it sounds better than the linkwitz speaker I built and a heck of a lot easier to do.
I built the linkwitz system FIRST (years ago), improved it, then bashed it - I believe after going through all that trouble to find it wasn't worth the parts cost and labor to be a good reason to have the 'right' to bash it.
Has this stalker built anything like what I just did? NO, has he ever had a full range horn system? -NO - How about linkwitz? NO - Why mention his name? - because i am comparing what I wanted to acheive to what I've already built and to a dipole speaker most DIY builders are aware of-
Like i said in my first post to the stalker - I had certain things I wanted to achieve in this speaker project, executed a plan and mostly achieved the goals. That's the way I try do things -
These speakers are EASY to build but require a GOOD sub if you want the bottom end right and seven channels of amplifiers and a good electronic crossover - that's where real cost can come in.
If you don't have the amps, crossover and sub try something like Bill F built - I bet it sounds better than the linkwitz speaker I built and a heck of a lot easier to do.
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