Unless somebody does serious measurements and can recommend a decent crossover and possibly a notch I wouldn't even consider these.I have tried 3 pairs in 5 different boxes with different crossover points and even a notch in an MTM.
All of these lacked air and an even timbre.Every speaker I put them in now has different tweeters instead of these.I bought them last year and have been trying and testing since.
PE claims these are a step above the average tweeter,ok.I could be off but everytime I listened to these it sounded like there was something missing on the top end very similar sounding to cheap paper tweeters.
Weird the domes look good and neodyium is supposed to be sweet hrmm.
Anybody try these and have any results good or bad?
All of these lacked air and an even timbre.Every speaker I put them in now has different tweeters instead of these.I bought them last year and have been trying and testing since.
PE claims these are a step above the average tweeter,ok.I could be off but everytime I listened to these it sounded like there was something missing on the top end very similar sounding to cheap paper tweeters.
Weird the domes look good and neodyium is supposed to be sweet hrmm.
Anybody try these and have any results good or bad?
What crossover point did you try?
It looks very similar to the ND20TB-4 tested and used by John "Zaph" Krutke, and he did a second order at 3.6 khz. If you have a small mid for really low inter-driver spacing, it might benefit from an even higher/steeper slope.
That's the tradeoff with 3/4" tweeters, you know?
It looks very similar to the ND20TB-4 tested and used by John "Zaph" Krutke, and he did a second order at 3.6 khz. If you have a small mid for really low inter-driver spacing, it might benefit from an even higher/steeper slope.
That's the tradeoff with 3/4" tweeters, you know?
I tried at 3.5kz 2nd order and 3rd order in a TM,a 3rd and 4th order paralell in an mtm at 4khz thru 5.5khz and as super tweeter for a semi full range at 10khz using a 1st order filter.I also used a notch at 1.7khz and 2.5khz with the TMs and MTMs.
I also did some blind testing last week (To see if I was nutty or not.)with some cheap mini 2 ways with the wife.And in her opinion she had issues with the sound these little tweets were reproducing.
Also this is not one pair tested this is 3 pairs I have tried.(A bad run lol maybe.)
I'm not knocking PE they sell great stuff,excpet maybe these tweeters but If anyone has thoughts or wants a pair to test I still have an open mind.
I also did some blind testing last week (To see if I was nutty or not.)with some cheap mini 2 ways with the wife.And in her opinion she had issues with the sound these little tweets were reproducing.
Also this is not one pair tested this is 3 pairs I have tried.(A bad run lol maybe.)
I'm not knocking PE they sell great stuff,excpet maybe these tweeters but If anyone has thoughts or wants a pair to test I still have an open mind.
Those are pretty good tweeters. You are not using them correctly.
Power response is what you've failed to consider. It also sounds like you're doing all this without measurements.
When you use small tweeters with large woofers and cross over high, it may measure flat on axis (assuming you took measurements) but still sound harsh and edgy. MTM designs make that issue worse. Using one of these PE 3/4" neo domes with a 6.5" woofer is a recipe for failure. The woofer can't cross high enough and still have smooth off axis response, and the tweeter can't cross low enough without trememdous distortion. So you get a null in the power response.
If you want to see what those tweeters can really do, 1)use them with a 3 or 4" midrange that has extended response; 2)start measuring because in most cases what you come up with using only your ears will be far from optimal.
Power response is what you've failed to consider. It also sounds like you're doing all this without measurements.
When you use small tweeters with large woofers and cross over high, it may measure flat on axis (assuming you took measurements) but still sound harsh and edgy. MTM designs make that issue worse. Using one of these PE 3/4" neo domes with a 6.5" woofer is a recipe for failure. The woofer can't cross high enough and still have smooth off axis response, and the tweeter can't cross low enough without trememdous distortion. So you get a null in the power response.
If you want to see what those tweeters can really do, 1)use them with a 3 or 4" midrange that has extended response; 2)start measuring because in most cases what you come up with using only your ears will be far from optimal.
I understand yes they are 3/4" and 6.5s are a bad idea in a 2way or similar.I however used a 4" aluminum cone in a 2 way with several variations on the cross.And the MTM uses 4.5 Vifa woofers again several variations on the crossover.
I am basing my crossovers on PEs graphs and CLIO.As far as I am concerned if a driver like this can't come close to manf specs it's a bad buy.Why would I want to spend time testing a 3 dollar tweeter especially if it can't give reasonably flat frequency response in a 4" 2way with several variant crossovers and even a notch based on the CLio c'mon now.
I may not measure my designs but I have built maybe 30 pairs of speakers and about 30 subs over the last 12 years I think I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing.I have used 3/4" and even 1/2" and 5/8" tweeters in 2ways and 3ways.
I made a 3way one time using all low-cost MCM drivers based on their specs(Ok ok I found a few that had some.)their 8" poly woofer,5 sealed back and 2 1/2" polymides.Everyone who heard these loved them in fact I sold them after a friend bugged me to death for them.My friend still doesnt believe they cost me $110 at the time (Ok it was sometime ago.)to build.
Point I wouldn't post this unless I felt there was some serious issue with these tweeters.My first thought anyhow was how good can a $3 tweeter be well I guess I found out the hard way.I also point out that I lived with these tweeters everyday on my computer with the 4" 2way.
Can I ask Zaph what makes you think highly of these tweeters?Have you measured these or know anyone who has?Or if you or anyone wants to measure them I'll send a pair and you or they can tell me what I'm missing.
I am basing my crossovers on PEs graphs and CLIO.As far as I am concerned if a driver like this can't come close to manf specs it's a bad buy.Why would I want to spend time testing a 3 dollar tweeter especially if it can't give reasonably flat frequency response in a 4" 2way with several variant crossovers and even a notch based on the CLio c'mon now.
I may not measure my designs but I have built maybe 30 pairs of speakers and about 30 subs over the last 12 years I think I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing.I have used 3/4" and even 1/2" and 5/8" tweeters in 2ways and 3ways.
I made a 3way one time using all low-cost MCM drivers based on their specs(Ok ok I found a few that had some.)their 8" poly woofer,5 sealed back and 2 1/2" polymides.Everyone who heard these loved them in fact I sold them after a friend bugged me to death for them.My friend still doesnt believe they cost me $110 at the time (Ok it was sometime ago.)to build.
Point I wouldn't post this unless I felt there was some serious issue with these tweeters.My first thought anyhow was how good can a $3 tweeter be well I guess I found out the hard way.I also point out that I lived with these tweeters everyday on my computer with the 4" 2way.
Can I ask Zaph what makes you think highly of these tweeters?Have you measured these or know anyone who has?Or if you or anyone wants to measure them I'll send a pair and you or they can tell me what I'm missing.
bickeler said:
Mostly it's the fact that their response and distortion doesn't look like a tweeter that costs $5. I've tested a bunch of them. They are not "awesome" to be sure, but they are definitely workable and a good value.
Frequency Response & Impedence - Dayton ND20TB
Cumulative Spectrum Decay - Dayton ND20TB
Harmonic Distortion - Dayton ND20TB
Frequency Response & Impedence - Dayton ND20TA
Cumulative Spectrum Decay - Dayton ND20TA
Harmonic Distortion - Dayton ND20TA
What modeling software do you use? If you're importing PE CLIO data, did you sum in baffle diffraction sims? With that 4" aluminum driver, did properly notch out the breakup node and cross over below the frequency where the breakup manifests as odd order harmonic distortion? If you could just step through your design process, we might be able to help point you in the right direction.
I did use a notch on the 4" and cross below breakup.
Maybe it's me past tweeters I have used in recent years have always been high-grade Dnyaudio,Scanspeak,Seas domes and various ribbons
from B&G to Pioneer.
Maybe a basic 3/4" just sounds blah to me and it irks me since I have tried many variations with these without any satisfaction.
I can say the VIfa d27tg-35 in place of the PE 3/4"ers is a revelation in comparison.
Did their SPL correspond well with the claimed SPL?To my ears it doesn't sound like it the Vifa seems to have the same if not a slightly brighter sound.
Maybe it's me past tweeters I have used in recent years have always been high-grade Dnyaudio,Scanspeak,Seas domes and various ribbons
from B&G to Pioneer.
Maybe a basic 3/4" just sounds blah to me and it irks me since I have tried many variations with these without any satisfaction.
I can say the VIfa d27tg-35 in place of the PE 3/4"ers is a revelation in comparison.
Did their SPL correspond well with the claimed SPL?To my ears it doesn't sound like it the Vifa seems to have the same if not a slightly brighter sound.
You didn't answer most of my questions.
I've already gathered that you didn't take any measurements.
Did you use any modeling software at all? I think you know what I'm getting at, and I think you're avoiding the issue. You can't push out a poor design and then blame it's failure on the drivers. I'm sorry, there's really no less rude way to say that.
I've already gathered that you didn't take any measurements.
Did you use any modeling software at all? I think you know what I'm getting at, and I think you're avoiding the issue. You can't push out a poor design and then blame it's failure on the drivers. I'm sorry, there's really no less rude way to say that.
Actually I used Lpscad for my 1st incarnation with the 4" aluminum drivers in several modelings.
I'll admit the MTMs still are more of an experiment at the moment.But the 2ways with the 4" aluminum mids as I pointed in a previous post,I went through many hours of crossover variations and compensation circuits.
As far as Baffle step issues granted none of the enclosures were spherical but I did try some mounting techniques to compensate.I considered a few circuits but with the way this driver sounded I don't think the issues I encountered had anything to with baffle-step.But worst case what might be the outcome a bright speaker?Not even close with these tweeters.
Now as for me measuring yes I don't have the hardware to do it at the moment.But again I reiterate I was counting on reasonably accurate information from PE.
I also considered the fact that these would not sound too good using a low crossover frequency or even a low order network hence mainly I tried 3rd order and 4th order crossovers at 3k and above even as high as 5.5k,although I did try two test 1st and 2nd order crossovers.
I also noticed this on your site I quote
"If this article sounds a little biased against 3/4" dome tweeters, that's because it is. In most cases, I see absolutely no reason to use a 3/4" tweeter, particularly with larger woofers. The only 3/4" tweeter I've used on this web site was selected based on cost and the fact that the woofer used with it was small and had a very extended response. Maybe someday someone will create a 3/4" dome that can hang with the 1" boys at the low end, but for now it doesn't exist."
Ah don't seem to care for 3/4" tweeters do we and yet you give a passionate defense of one Zaph?
I'll admit the MTMs still are more of an experiment at the moment.But the 2ways with the 4" aluminum mids as I pointed in a previous post,I went through many hours of crossover variations and compensation circuits.
As far as Baffle step issues granted none of the enclosures were spherical but I did try some mounting techniques to compensate.I considered a few circuits but with the way this driver sounded I don't think the issues I encountered had anything to with baffle-step.But worst case what might be the outcome a bright speaker?Not even close with these tweeters.
Now as for me measuring yes I don't have the hardware to do it at the moment.But again I reiterate I was counting on reasonably accurate information from PE.
I also considered the fact that these would not sound too good using a low crossover frequency or even a low order network hence mainly I tried 3rd order and 4th order crossovers at 3k and above even as high as 5.5k,although I did try two test 1st and 2nd order crossovers.
I also noticed this on your site I quote
"If this article sounds a little biased against 3/4" dome tweeters, that's because it is. In most cases, I see absolutely no reason to use a 3/4" tweeter, particularly with larger woofers. The only 3/4" tweeter I've used on this web site was selected based on cost and the fact that the woofer used with it was small and had a very extended response. Maybe someday someone will create a 3/4" dome that can hang with the 1" boys at the low end, but for now it doesn't exist."
Ah don't seem to care for 3/4" tweeters do we and yet you give a passionate defense of one Zaph?
bickeler said:
Great, that puts aside one major issue. One of my pet peaves is people blaming the results of a crappy design on the drivers.
I've said this many times: Drivers cannot be evaluated in a system. When a driver is used in a system, all you are qualified to evaluate is the system. (and even then, often not without measurements) Of course the drivers are making sound, but what you really hear is the crossover design and the listening environment. Only individual extensive measurements are acceptable in evaluating an individual driver.
Now if you could, please post a picture of the LSPcad schematics for high pass and low pass, and let me know which 4" aluminum woofer you tried. I Probably have data on the woofer. There's a good chance I've tried it myself and I have data available. I won't rule out design issues until I see the actual design and I'm convinced that it works with the drivers. That said, I'm still confident is *is* a design issue.
bickeler said:
Yes. My favorite tweeter is the Seas 27TBFCG, a 1" tweeter with some balls and extremely low distortion. But the 3/4" Daytons are special because of their value and their ability to sound good when used within their limits and crossed over correctly.
Anyway, I won't be back to this thread until I see some schematics and other design information. Until then, this thread isn't really going anywhere. Then, I'll either accept your statement that these tweeters suck, or (if you'd like) I'll make suggestions on ways to improve the design.
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