I am planning on building my first set of speakers. I am fascinated with piano finish, but I have not figured out a way to get there. I don't have an air compressor so I need to use something that will brush on.
My first attempt was with spray on primer and black auto paint. It worked descently on my scrap mdf, but it is way too messy and there is no way I can paint a full tower descently like that.
I went to lowes hardware store and only found one black paint 😡 I gave it a try. It was not bad, but not glossy enough. I tried toping it with a water based polyeurethane, but I don't think they agreed with each other
So is there anyway to brush on a piano-like finish. I am going to make a trip to home depot to see if I have any better luck. I am looking for specific products which would be compatible. I understand there will be more work involved with brushing/sanding. A website for reference would be very useful also. I have done some searches on finishing in the last two weeks, so I don't know anything when it comes to this.
TIA
My first attempt was with spray on primer and black auto paint. It worked descently on my scrap mdf, but it is way too messy and there is no way I can paint a full tower descently like that.
I went to lowes hardware store and only found one black paint 😡 I gave it a try. It was not bad, but not glossy enough. I tried toping it with a water based polyeurethane, but I don't think they agreed with each other
So is there anyway to brush on a piano-like finish. I am going to make a trip to home depot to see if I have any better luck. I am looking for specific products which would be compatible. I understand there will be more work involved with brushing/sanding. A website for reference would be very useful also. I have done some searches on finishing in the last two weeks, so I don't know anything when it comes to this.
TIA
No way. Piano finish (and other super-high-gloss and mirror finishes) absolutely require spraying.
http://www.pc-workshop.net/articles/paint101/paint101-1.shtml
That link details the actual steps involved in getting a mirror finish on a steel case... I imagine that it's exactly the same on MDF, 'cept maybe more primer.
The site seems to be down right now. It could just be my connection... I'm hoping it's just my connection, 'cause that's a really cool site.
http://www.pc-workshop.net/articles/paint101/paint101-1.shtml
That link details the actual steps involved in getting a mirror finish on a steel case... I imagine that it's exactly the same on MDF, 'cept maybe more primer.
The site seems to be down right now. It could just be my connection... I'm hoping it's just my connection, 'cause that's a really cool site.
My experience is that the water-based varnishes are neither attractive, nor durable. But I thought they would be compatable over any finish, except wax.
You might be able to remove it easily (the poly)with any paint stripper and start again with another coat of paint and a better clear finish.
The glossy black piano-type finish might be better bought, in the form of a vertical grade (thin for bending, if it's necessary) laminate like Formica at this point, but if you still want to try paint and clear coat, use foam brushes and read my remarks here .... the comments about making the top of the finish _flat_ is the key to the piano finish.
You might be able to remove it easily (the poly)with any paint stripper and start again with another coat of paint and a better clear finish.
The glossy black piano-type finish might be better bought, in the form of a vertical grade (thin for bending, if it's necessary) laminate like Formica at this point, but if you still want to try paint and clear coat, use foam brushes and read my remarks here .... the comments about making the top of the finish _flat_ is the key to the piano finish.
Look on the PartsExpress discussion page (speaker projects). I believe on of them describes a process for obtaining a piano black finish.
Steve
Steve
Here is the one to which I was referring:
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/daytonmtm.html
Steve
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/daytonmtm.html
Steve
Here's another one.
http://www.lungster.com/l/speakers/pianofinish.html
Check out some of the auto paint places. My buddy got some custom filled spray cans that have a nice fan nozzle on them in place of those awful round ones on regular spray cans. It works beautifully and is a low-cost alternative to buying a compressor.
Here's an on-line source.
http://www.towerpaint.com/carsandparts/
http://www.lungster.com/l/speakers/pianofinish.html
Check out some of the auto paint places. My buddy got some custom filled spray cans that have a nice fan nozzle on them in place of those awful round ones on regular spray cans. It works beautifully and is a low-cost alternative to buying a compressor.
Here's an on-line source.
http://www.towerpaint.com/carsandparts/
The finish your wanting a piano black, is a black lacquer finish or a ebony polyurethane.
To get a good polish finish you will need to buff out the finish out. You will need an auto polisher and buffing pad and some swirl remover 3M and Maguire’s makes it.
A varnish finish like WaterLox will look nice but it will not polish as well as a Lacquer. Check out these sources below they sale these products and will help you out.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
www.waterlox.com
http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/liberon.html
To get a good polish finish you will need to buff out the finish out. You will need an auto polisher and buffing pad and some swirl remover 3M and Maguire’s makes it.
A varnish finish like WaterLox will look nice but it will not polish as well as a Lacquer. Check out these sources below they sale these products and will help you out.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
www.waterlox.com
http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/liberon.html
Piano finish NOT for the faint of heart.
It can be done with a brush but your nuts if you think it will be easy. Ive done it a number of ways. There is one that is relatively easy but requires a spray gun. If you are interested e-mail me via the forum or privately and I will be happy to detail it.
One note is that you cannot put a water borne varnish over everything. And that particular varnish will have to come off if you want to create a quality job.
Mark
It can be done with a brush but your nuts if you think it will be easy. Ive done it a number of ways. There is one that is relatively easy but requires a spray gun. If you are interested e-mail me via the forum or privately and I will be happy to detail it.
One note is that you cannot put a water borne varnish over everything. And that particular varnish will have to come off if you want to create a quality job.
Mark
MDF is a great substrate for enabling a high quality finish.
You should use lacquer. Automotive acrylic lacquer will be fine.
Prepare the MDF well. Any minor imperfections in the MDF will show up ten times worse in a lacquered finish. Trust me, the smallest imperfection will look like the Grand Canyon when you apply a glossy lacquer finish. Fill any imperfections. Sand with fine grit.
The MDF has to be well sealed. Sealers go by different names but you're looking for a lacquer sanding sealer. Apply the sealer. The MDF fibres will fuzz up. Sand these back with fine grit. Apply another coat of sealer. Less fuzz this time. Sand again.
You will notice at this stage that the surface of the MDF is pretty damn smooth--glassy, in fact. This is good.
Check for imperfections at this stage (and at all stages). If they are minor (and they should be by now) just dab on some more sealer with a brush and allow to dry before sanding back.
Apply primer. Primers have certain surface levelling qualities that are important for high quality finishes. So, prime, sand, prime, sand. Use soapy water and wet & dry grit. This is the only way to cut the primer down to a perfectly smooth surface.
Your surface should be close to perfect by now. If it's not simply fix local imperfections with dabbed on primer and sand back.
Apply the color lacquer. I'd apply three coats and let them dry well before giving them a wet sand with very fine grit. Depending on the quality of your technique and your gun you should have minimum orange peel (surface ripple like an orange skin) to sand out.
Use your eye and surface reflections to identify any orange peel.
Want a good finish? Apply another couple of coats of color.
Wet sand again. Go to 2000 grit and free flowing water.
Ahh, smoooooth.
When it dries you'll notice the gloss has been sanded off. Looks like crap but that's no problem. You get the gloss back by using a mild cutting and polishing cream. Apply, buff, apply, buff.
You should end up with a deep, deep, mirror-like finish that would impress all but the most critical.
Yep, it's a lot of work but then a high gloss, perfect finish isn't available straight out of the can and anyone who says it is is fooling themselves.
Get a good book on lacquering and practice.
Good luck.
Mos
You should use lacquer. Automotive acrylic lacquer will be fine.
Prepare the MDF well. Any minor imperfections in the MDF will show up ten times worse in a lacquered finish. Trust me, the smallest imperfection will look like the Grand Canyon when you apply a glossy lacquer finish. Fill any imperfections. Sand with fine grit.
The MDF has to be well sealed. Sealers go by different names but you're looking for a lacquer sanding sealer. Apply the sealer. The MDF fibres will fuzz up. Sand these back with fine grit. Apply another coat of sealer. Less fuzz this time. Sand again.
You will notice at this stage that the surface of the MDF is pretty damn smooth--glassy, in fact. This is good.
Check for imperfections at this stage (and at all stages). If they are minor (and they should be by now) just dab on some more sealer with a brush and allow to dry before sanding back.
Apply primer. Primers have certain surface levelling qualities that are important for high quality finishes. So, prime, sand, prime, sand. Use soapy water and wet & dry grit. This is the only way to cut the primer down to a perfectly smooth surface.
Your surface should be close to perfect by now. If it's not simply fix local imperfections with dabbed on primer and sand back.
Apply the color lacquer. I'd apply three coats and let them dry well before giving them a wet sand with very fine grit. Depending on the quality of your technique and your gun you should have minimum orange peel (surface ripple like an orange skin) to sand out.
Use your eye and surface reflections to identify any orange peel.
Want a good finish? Apply another couple of coats of color.
Wet sand again. Go to 2000 grit and free flowing water.
Ahh, smoooooth.
When it dries you'll notice the gloss has been sanded off. Looks like crap but that's no problem. You get the gloss back by using a mild cutting and polishing cream. Apply, buff, apply, buff.
You should end up with a deep, deep, mirror-like finish that would impress all but the most critical.
Yep, it's a lot of work but then a high gloss, perfect finish isn't available straight out of the can and anyone who says it is is fooling themselves.
Get a good book on lacquering and practice.
Good luck.
Mos
OK I'm back
Mos has a good method. I would add that I use a glass backed sanding block. I make it so that a third of a sheet will fit on it. The glass block gives you a dead flat surface finish. It is very important to achieve this. Primer surfacers for automotive use have a bit of filler allready in the paint. It sealers the MDF and makes it easier to achieve a smooth surface.
My method is to get a good surface finnish apply a good colour coat a number of times. Then I spray in a thin coat of epoxy. It works like a charm. The smoothest deepest gloss you will see!!
You will need some acetone to thin the epoxy and some to clean up after. You must spray this in an area that is relatively dust free. And you must wear a respirator. Practice if you are unsure. It will be worth while. This is the fastest and most durable method that I have ever used to achieve a piano gloss. I have done the laquer methods, the automotive paint methods and they do work. But the level of skill needed is high. If you can spray a decent paint finish you can produce an awesome finish with the epoxy. The epoxy type that works well is the stuff that is poured on table tops. When you thin it out to a spraying consistency it will dry quite quickly when it is atomized.
Give it a shot!
Mark
Mos has a good method. I would add that I use a glass backed sanding block. I make it so that a third of a sheet will fit on it. The glass block gives you a dead flat surface finish. It is very important to achieve this. Primer surfacers for automotive use have a bit of filler allready in the paint. It sealers the MDF and makes it easier to achieve a smooth surface.
My method is to get a good surface finnish apply a good colour coat a number of times. Then I spray in a thin coat of epoxy. It works like a charm. The smoothest deepest gloss you will see!!
You will need some acetone to thin the epoxy and some to clean up after. You must spray this in an area that is relatively dust free. And you must wear a respirator. Practice if you are unsure. It will be worth while. This is the fastest and most durable method that I have ever used to achieve a piano gloss. I have done the laquer methods, the automotive paint methods and they do work. But the level of skill needed is high. If you can spray a decent paint finish you can produce an awesome finish with the epoxy. The epoxy type that works well is the stuff that is poured on table tops. When you thin it out to a spraying consistency it will dry quite quickly when it is atomized.
Give it a shot!
Mark
There is an easier way...
Make sure your boxes are perfect. Easiest way is with wood filler. Follow directions on product.
Now prime. Sand smooth to ~220.
Now paint. You can do it with a brush, its not that hard, but I would have a sacrificial box to practice on. What you want is an oil based high gloss black laquer. Thin this with mineral spirits until it is as viscous as motor oil. You will learn how thin by practice. Use the best natural bristle brush you can find. Put very little paint on the brush each time, especially when you go around corners. You will find that if you thinned it enough all of the brush marks will flow out as you are working. Do as many coats as you like but sand between every coat with #0000 steel wool.
This technique worked well for me and gave good results.
A really important thing is to work in a very clean environment. Do not sand where you are painting. Maybe set up a temporary booth that will keep bugs and stuff out.
Hope this helps,
Jason
Make sure your boxes are perfect. Easiest way is with wood filler. Follow directions on product.
Now prime. Sand smooth to ~220.
Now paint. You can do it with a brush, its not that hard, but I would have a sacrificial box to practice on. What you want is an oil based high gloss black laquer. Thin this with mineral spirits until it is as viscous as motor oil. You will learn how thin by practice. Use the best natural bristle brush you can find. Put very little paint on the brush each time, especially when you go around corners. You will find that if you thinned it enough all of the brush marks will flow out as you are working. Do as many coats as you like but sand between every coat with #0000 steel wool.
This technique worked well for me and gave good results.
A really important thing is to work in a very clean environment. Do not sand where you are painting. Maybe set up a temporary booth that will keep bugs and stuff out.
Hope this helps,
Jason
Possibilities possibilities
Brush boy is also right. Ive done this to. But witha spray gun. It's really cheating. With a caveat of how long in between drying times. While it is true that a thinned oil paint will dry more quickly they do still take their sweet time. It is still very important to keep them in a dust free environment. If you applied enough coats you could let the thing dry a month or so and then rub it out as per mos's instructions ( that I cannot do better on his intructions by the way! )
But it still will not reach the level of depth and clarity of the epoxy coat.
Mark
Brush boy is also right. Ive done this to. But witha spray gun. It's really cheating. With a caveat of how long in between drying times. While it is true that a thinned oil paint will dry more quickly they do still take their sweet time. It is still very important to keep them in a dust free environment. If you applied enough coats you could let the thing dry a month or so and then rub it out as per mos's instructions ( that I cannot do better on his intructions by the way! )
But it still will not reach the level of depth and clarity of the epoxy coat.
Mark
DO NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE LAQUERS OR OTHER AUTOMOTIVE PRODUCTS AS THEY DO NOT FLEX OR EXPAND AND WILL CAUSE A FINISH TO SPIDER WEB & CRACKS.
Jim,
You are absolutely correct. I was going to post this but you beat me to it. I also wanted to say that a compressor is not a must. I recommend an HPLV setup as it minimizes overspray and is easier to control. HPLV setups with their own turbines can be had for as little as $300 and if you have a hefty compressor a conversion gun can be used. The key to any good finish is surface preparation and a dust free environment. Multiple coats with a sanding with a good fine grit wet/dry paper in between (don't forget to tack the surface after sanding) is also key. Spraying laquer at home can be dangerous if the proper precautions are not taken like good ventilation and a respirator.
You are absolutely correct. I was going to post this but you beat me to it. I also wanted to say that a compressor is not a must. I recommend an HPLV setup as it minimizes overspray and is easier to control. HPLV setups with their own turbines can be had for as little as $300 and if you have a hefty compressor a conversion gun can be used. The key to any good finish is surface preparation and a dust free environment. Multiple coats with a sanding with a good fine grit wet/dry paper in between (don't forget to tack the surface after sanding) is also key. Spraying laquer at home can be dangerous if the proper precautions are not taken like good ventilation and a respirator.
Thanks for all the help 😀
If I can find black lacquer this weekend, I will try jason's suggestion. Lowes and home depot don't seem to carry lacquers. Osh's website search is useless 🙄 I will call some paint stores on saturday to see if anyone carries it.
To be honest I am thinking of taking the easy way out, and just using vinyl laminate. They will be in the bedroom where they can be ugly as they want to be 🙂
If I can find black lacquer this weekend, I will try jason's suggestion. Lowes and home depot don't seem to carry lacquers. Osh's website search is useless 🙄 I will call some paint stores on saturday to see if anyone carries it.
To be honest I am thinking of taking the easy way out, and just using vinyl laminate. They will be in the bedroom where they can be ugly as they want to be 🙂
vteg
If you decide to use a laminate "don't use" a water based contact cement, it sucks. Also, use a material thats ment for counter tops it easy to trim with a router and it hold up well. I done speakers like this before and they can look good.
Of course Behlen makes black lacquer in spray can.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
If you decide to use a laminate "don't use" a water based contact cement, it sucks. Also, use a material thats ment for counter tops it easy to trim with a router and it hold up well. I done speakers like this before and they can look good.
Of course Behlen makes black lacquer in spray can.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
An interesing thread/- article.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21183&highlight=
Magura
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21183&highlight=
Magura
I found my laquer at home depot about a year ago. Maybe just ask for oil based gloss black paint. But maybe they stopped carrying that, as when I went in they only had one can.
Laminate can work good and is best if you do not have rounded corners.
Good luck,
Jason
Laminate can work good and is best if you do not have rounded corners.
Good luck,
Jason
Brushing
I've never tried this method on loudspeakers before, but it worked fairly well on a boat I painted once.
Seal, prime your work as necessary and sand smooth before finish color.
It'd be best to work one horizontal surface at a time, your mileage may vary though.
Use a 1/4" foam rubber roller and work in a small area. Might be a good idea to thin out the paint a bit and do more coats. Roll on the paint to one small area or side, then with a foam brush tip the rolled area slightly. You want to do this quickly and keep the foam brush wet. You're not brushing, only tipping or dragging lightly across the surface. You don't want to work the paint too much or the brush marks won't settle out.
Let the paint dry for an extended period of time and you can buff out any other brush marks and then polish.
If you're going to be doing a lot of painting might be worth it to invest $100 in a budget hvlp setup, I plan to do that myself.
I've never tried this method on loudspeakers before, but it worked fairly well on a boat I painted once.
Seal, prime your work as necessary and sand smooth before finish color.
It'd be best to work one horizontal surface at a time, your mileage may vary though.
Use a 1/4" foam rubber roller and work in a small area. Might be a good idea to thin out the paint a bit and do more coats. Roll on the paint to one small area or side, then with a foam brush tip the rolled area slightly. You want to do this quickly and keep the foam brush wet. You're not brushing, only tipping or dragging lightly across the surface. You don't want to work the paint too much or the brush marks won't settle out.
Let the paint dry for an extended period of time and you can buff out any other brush marks and then polish.
If you're going to be doing a lot of painting might be worth it to invest $100 in a budget hvlp setup, I plan to do that myself.
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