Hello all !
I tried to make high efficiency loudspeakers myself. Two 45$ 7" Thang Band woofer and 60$ 1"TB titanium inverted dome tweeter and i'm not happy with the result when i compare with my actual loudspeakers.
This is my sound system :
Monitor Audio RS8 (i will write "MA")
Shanling STP-80 tube amplifier
Unity Audio Solid Link Cable
Cambridge Audio Dacmagic with computer USB
The new boxes with TB sound something cold and fatiguing. A bit more efficient. Play loud. but the voice is hard. Sound like old paper cone drivers but with more bass. lot of mid ... Bass is ok. The sound stage are big, heigh, width. But not really coherent and deep compared to MA.
I tried to put one of this woofer in different box. Bookshelf setup. Sound a bit different but the same signature.
Now i want to do a mini bookshelf with very high sound quality. The Monitor Audio sound good but something struggle on some frequency range. It make sound a bit small. Like if you put the soundstage in a lot of damping material.
The future project should should sound more open, more height and natural.
I see the page of different ProAc clones but the price of the drivers are very high. My home made speakers use 45$ woofer.
So, my question is
Is the drivers price (quality) is the main factor ? I take a look the Monitor Audio, Proac, lot of DIY designs and all the boxes are very similar. Same material, same collapsing, same port shape etc. The only difference is the volume and the dampering material and the port configuration.
Is that exist truly very good sounding speaker made from drivers than cost less than the price of used guinuine acclaimed speakers ?
Now, if i want to do ProAc bookshelf clone, i will almost equal the price of buying new
genuine ProAc to the store ...
Will i wast my time if i try to do hifi speaker with less than 150$ drivers ?
Thank to all for your advice, time and answer !
I tried to make high efficiency loudspeakers myself. Two 45$ 7" Thang Band woofer and 60$ 1"TB titanium inverted dome tweeter and i'm not happy with the result when i compare with my actual loudspeakers.
This is my sound system :
Monitor Audio RS8 (i will write "MA")
Shanling STP-80 tube amplifier
Unity Audio Solid Link Cable
Cambridge Audio Dacmagic with computer USB
The new boxes with TB sound something cold and fatiguing. A bit more efficient. Play loud. but the voice is hard. Sound like old paper cone drivers but with more bass. lot of mid ... Bass is ok. The sound stage are big, heigh, width. But not really coherent and deep compared to MA.
I tried to put one of this woofer in different box. Bookshelf setup. Sound a bit different but the same signature.
Now i want to do a mini bookshelf with very high sound quality. The Monitor Audio sound good but something struggle on some frequency range. It make sound a bit small. Like if you put the soundstage in a lot of damping material.
The future project should should sound more open, more height and natural.
I see the page of different ProAc clones but the price of the drivers are very high. My home made speakers use 45$ woofer.
So, my question is
Is the drivers price (quality) is the main factor ? I take a look the Monitor Audio, Proac, lot of DIY designs and all the boxes are very similar. Same material, same collapsing, same port shape etc. The only difference is the volume and the dampering material and the port configuration.
Is that exist truly very good sounding speaker made from drivers than cost less than the price of used guinuine acclaimed speakers ?
Now, if i want to do ProAc bookshelf clone, i will almost equal the price of buying new
genuine ProAc to the store ...
Will i wast my time if i try to do hifi speaker with less than 150$ drivers ?
Thank to all for your advice, time and answer !
I don't know anything about the drivers you are using. But I do see one element of your design that is not mentioned at all ... the crossover. Crossovers make or break more DIY speaker systems then anything else IMO.
At some point you will need to make detailed measurements of the impedance and SPL response to get the most from your drivers. It would seem reasonable that you could get better performance then you have described but it is going to take integrating the crossover, the drivers, and the enclosure to produce an optimized speaker system.
At some point you will need to make detailed measurements of the impedance and SPL response to get the most from your drivers. It would seem reasonable that you could get better performance then you have described but it is going to take integrating the crossover, the drivers, and the enclosure to produce an optimized speaker system.
oaristys said:
If you do some looking/research, there are plenty of well documented, well designed speakers around the net for not very much money.
If you're not up for doing a good bit of measuring/simulating/trial/error, follow a proven design. Otherwise, you'll end up with something fairly compromised (as it sounds like you've discovered).
PS - I'd guess the law of diminishing returns happens more quickly with drivers than a lot of people would guess, so I don't worry much about raw driver cost.
Some specifications
Wouh ! I'v got a lot of answer !
Thank's to all.
Some ask for spec. The original question is more about the driver budget for a next project but if you want to help me to succeed with the actual one
Sorry for my bad english. I'm french person.
I put a webpage on my website about this project.
http://www.francoischagnon.com/tb-wtpw.htm
Everything is there but I don't have any measure curve for you because i don't think my cheap laptop microphone are precise enough for that.
Thank's again !
Wouh ! I'v got a lot of answer !
Thank's to all.Some ask for spec. The original question is more about the driver budget for a next project but if you want to help me to succeed with the actual one
Sorry for my bad english. I'm french person.
I put a webpage on my website about this project.
http://www.francoischagnon.com/tb-wtpw.htm
Everything is there but I don't have any measure curve for you because i don't think my cheap laptop microphone are precise enough for that.
Thank's again !
badman said:
My brother (the designer here) think same way.
The box size is for higher efficiency. the two woofer work in pair to rise up the lower end output. The big port is for eliminate the wind noise. The position of the second woofer reduce the mid by placing the ears off axis. The dispersion with the floor also make soundscape behind the stage more tall and wide IMO ... Maybe i'm wrong here.
The position of the two woofer from the top and and the bottom are different for eliminate some stationary waves. Finally, the port is exactly between two woofer to ensure the all utilisation of the box volume.
Only one glitch is the high position of top woofer and tweeter. Mistake in design. These drivers are higher than ear in practice.
My brother said that the majority of problematic sound here are caused by the used of wrong glue ... I used Lepage PL Platinum. He said this glue stay too flexible like elastomer when is dry.
Maybe it's true but when i put one woofer in existing Mission 701 speakers, i keep the same sound signature.
anyway, i expect more than that from this project... A bit more efficiency, more bass, better coherency, less fatiguing... Can a good crossover fix all this issues ?
Thank,s
G'day oaristys,
Here is an extremely effective treatment for ports.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1473158#post1473158
Below is some specific application details for the 4 inch ports on your current speakers.
The materials used may appear basic, but the results speak for themselves.
Cheers,
Alex
Here is an extremely effective treatment for ports.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1473158#post1473158
Below is some specific application details for the 4 inch ports on your current speakers.
The materials used may appear basic, but the results speak for themselves.
Cheers,
Alex
Attachments
I'd suggest to use a separate lowpass for the lower woofer. If both woofers - that are spaced apart that much - operate up the woofer/tweeter crossover frequency chances are very small that it sounds good !
Both drivers are wired with the same polarity in the schematic that you posted. Only very few crossovers don't cause a dip in the frequency response when the drivers are wired with the same polarity. That is because the driver responses also act as filters with thier inherent amplitude- and phase-response. Any reasonable crossover design takes the driver responses into account.
While you might not end up with a super-highend speaker it should still be possible to get a decently sounding speaker with your box design. But the crossover design should be up to the task......
Maybe you could tell us what the exact driver tyapes are.
Regards
Charles
Edit:
two suggestions:
1) some tweeters er clearly more efficient than most woofers. You might need tho pad the tweeter down.
2.) Invert the polarity of the tweeter and check what this does to your sound.
Both drivers are wired with the same polarity in the schematic that you posted. Only very few crossovers don't cause a dip in the frequency response when the drivers are wired with the same polarity. That is because the driver responses also act as filters with thier inherent amplitude- and phase-response. Any reasonable crossover design takes the driver responses into account.
While you might not end up with a super-highend speaker it should still be possible to get a decently sounding speaker with your box design. But the crossover design should be up to the task......
Maybe you could tell us what the exact driver tyapes are.
Regards
Charles
Edit:
two suggestions:
1) some tweeters er clearly more efficient than most woofers. You might need tho pad the tweeter down.
2.) Invert the polarity of the tweeter and check what this does to your sound.
I now had a more indepth look at your crossover design and I also found the links to your driver spec sheets.
Although you didn't mention which value is belonging to which coil and cap one can tell that you would end up with a crossover frequency that is too close to the tweeter resonance IMO.
And don't forget that the tweeter adds 90 degrees of phase shift at it's resonance frequency !
Regards
Charles
Edit: Another look tells me that .56mH and 12 uF would give an x-over frequency that is one octave above the tweeter resonance which would be fine. But you should still try the tweeter inversion and the seperat crossover for the lower woofer.
Although you didn't mention which value is belonging to which coil and cap one can tell that you would end up with a crossover frequency that is too close to the tweeter resonance IMO.
And don't forget that the tweeter adds 90 degrees of phase shift at it's resonance frequency !
Regards
Charles
Edit: Another look tells me that .56mH and 12 uF would give an x-over frequency that is one octave above the tweeter resonance which would be fine. But you should still try the tweeter inversion and the seperat crossover for the lower woofer.
Thank,s again for your answer.
I'll make some test today for tweeter polarity.
The drivers specs and crossover parts detail are in my build page http://www.francoischagnon.com/tb-wtpw.htm
Tang Band W6 789S 6.5" Woofer
Tang Band 25-1372SC Tweeter
second order crossover
.82 mH 1.6
18 mfd 250v
.56 mH 0.8
12 mfd 250v
When i ask my brother for design i ask him for an high efficiency speaker. Hi-fi sound with excellent soundstage detail no matter of the size and the power handling. With a 1 000$ budget (including wood, electronic, finish etc.)
But now, it's sound more like a bit efficient party speaker. Like he said, this is a 700$ sounding speaker ! Yeah but i buy Monitor Audio demo at 1875$ (CAD) because the sound is as good and some 4 000$ speaker in my ear.
So i think you understand what's happen here.
This driver seems to be good. If you think i can achieve it keeping this design and just redo the crossover, add some damping material and few modification here and there.. Ok, i will do it.
But if you are sure to attempt a better sound and imaging than Monitor Audio with another design, i will follow you !
Hô, about EnABL. Do you have some picture ? I am visual person. Thank's !
I'll make some test today for tweeter polarity.
The drivers specs and crossover parts detail are in my build page http://www.francoischagnon.com/tb-wtpw.htm
Tang Band W6 789S 6.5" Woofer
Tang Band 25-1372SC Tweeter
second order crossover
.82 mH 1.6
18 mfd 250v
.56 mH 0.8
12 mfd 250v
When i ask my brother for design i ask him for an high efficiency speaker. Hi-fi sound with excellent soundstage detail no matter of the size and the power handling. With a 1 000$ budget (including wood, electronic, finish etc.)
But now, it's sound more like a bit efficient party speaker. Like he said, this is a 700$ sounding speaker ! Yeah but i buy Monitor Audio demo at 1875$ (CAD) because the sound is as good and some 4 000$ speaker in my ear.
So i think you understand what's happen here.
This driver seems to be good. If you think i can achieve it keeping this design and just redo the crossover, add some damping material and few modification here and there.. Ok, i will do it.
But if you are sure to attempt a better sound and imaging than Monitor Audio with another design, i will follow you !
Hô, about EnABL. Do you have some picture ? I am visual person. Thank's !
phase_accurate said:
Ok you meen this configuration : Mid bass; tweeter; port; subwoofer ?
If i lowpass the second woofer, what will be happen to the mid efficiency ? ... so maybe too high in the moment anyway...
Have you a crossover to suggest ?
I think i should make some measure here ... I have a a Behringer FCA202. I can rent a microphone and do some plotting with Frequency Response Plotter 1.12a.
One in line at 1m in mono and one in the listening position in stereo ? I never do that. Some advice ?
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