Instead of spoilin more that invaluable "Fullrange, are you guys kidding yourselves?"-thread, puttin' up a new one:
Does anyone yet have some first-hand experiences of that new Fertins 20 ex model7, with spring suspension?
As a owner of a two pairs of very "surroundless", "spiderless" and pretty old drivers, I'd really liked to hear some impressions of those Fertins. That's because all rumours I've heard about those Fertins are pretty much similar to my observations of abovementioned vintage fullrange driver. i.e,. clean, open and transparent mids, very great speed and detail, smooth tone and so on.
Could perhaps be something common to the surroundless structure?
So, anyone yet listened that Fertin 20ex model 7?
...and as long as I recall, kudos to the Fertin guys to not to selling "first time ever revolutionary new structural design, which overtakes all previous and so on."
They obviously are civiliced enough to know that -as normally- for shure someone somewhere someplace already has done it. Whether they were aware about the specific designs or not. Which, BTW really is a detail I'd liki to know, whether they knew about the existence of preceeding similar constructions.
I guess they did. They'd better do, because I am aware of at least three similar designs, and I am the one who does not design, manufacture or sell wideband drivers.
Does anyone yet have some first-hand experiences of that new Fertins 20 ex model7, with spring suspension?
As a owner of a two pairs of very "surroundless", "spiderless" and pretty old drivers, I'd really liked to hear some impressions of those Fertins. That's because all rumours I've heard about those Fertins are pretty much similar to my observations of abovementioned vintage fullrange driver. i.e,. clean, open and transparent mids, very great speed and detail, smooth tone and so on.
Could perhaps be something common to the surroundless structure?
So, anyone yet listened that Fertin 20ex model 7?
...and as long as I recall, kudos to the Fertin guys to not to selling "first time ever revolutionary new structural design, which overtakes all previous and so on."
They obviously are civiliced enough to know that -as normally- for shure someone somewhere someplace already has done it. Whether they were aware about the specific designs or not. Which, BTW really is a detail I'd liki to know, whether they knew about the existence of preceeding similar constructions.
I guess they did. They'd better do, because I am aware of at least three similar designs, and I am the one who does not design, manufacture or sell wideband drivers.
tinitus said:
Oh. I've understud the pics I've seen in a way that the outer edge of the cone is connected to the chassis with three wire springs.
I yet have no whatsoever kind of observation of voice coil/inner edge suspension solution.
Just different pics, we have seen, perhaps?
I guess it could not be the same suspension for both outer and inner edges of the cone, couldn't it? Now _that_ would be something new, I think!
Like these?tinitus said:
http://www.field-coil.com/field-coil/RF-C804/
(more info & picts on home page)
for "surroundless" & "spiderless" from "kidding yourself" thread:
http://www.vivaudiolab.com/E-evanui_signature.html
http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf200...anui_signature/
no surround or spider, it just floats in the magnetic field.
only connected by the two wires going to the cone.
when I heard them playing the guy demoing them just pulled the cone off by the phase plug, while it was playing, & handed it to me, then put it back in.
sound quality was, well, underwhelming.
pretty cool looking, but not really all it's cracked up to be...
better than open baffle though.
implementation not anything like B&W nautilus surroundless midrange driver?
cone bears on a foam ring/mech impedance like the cone - absorbing standing waves normally reflected from surround edge. didnt know of the 20ex model 7 or any other without a surround. just read it rolls ~80hz. interesting though cant see myself spending that much.
cone bears on a foam ring/mech impedance like the cone - absorbing standing waves normally reflected from surround edge. didnt know of the 20ex model 7 or any other without a surround. just read it rolls ~80hz. interesting though cant see myself spending that much.
Ok, found another pic.
So it seems that larger diaphragm drivers has a somewhat simpler suspension. Or is it the opposite?
Still havnt found pics of voice coil suspension/spider.
But, if that's too realized with carbon wires, i guess it's pretty easy to figure out how it looks.
Oh my, it almost makes me to want t have a pair of them, just because of the looks.
Its just _gorgeous_.
Lookin that very large (metal?) phase plug I am afraid that the voice coil is not made of paper.
And how is the clearance between the cone edge and driver frame?
It is not clearly visible in the pics, but the edge does not quite looks as free standing, but as if being supplied with a collar, where the springs are attached, so no free/open edge here, I guess-
Anyway, that's one fiendishly clever construction. I love it!
So it seems that larger diaphragm drivers has a somewhat simpler suspension. Or is it the opposite?
Still havnt found pics of voice coil suspension/spider.
But, if that's too realized with carbon wires, i guess it's pretty easy to figure out how it looks.
Oh my, it almost makes me to want t have a pair of them, just because of the looks.
Its just _gorgeous_.
Lookin that very large (metal?) phase plug I am afraid that the voice coil is not made of paper.
And how is the clearance between the cone edge and driver frame?
It is not clearly visible in the pics, but the edge does not quite looks as free standing, but as if being supplied with a collar, where the springs are attached, so no free/open edge here, I guess-
Anyway, that's one fiendishly clever construction. I love it!
No, it's not about mass.
I think it is just a pivoted attachment to the spring/suspension wire, to achieve longer linear (more or less) excursion.
I guess there is a real pivot/bearing built in the nut where another end of the shorter, heavier carbin rod is attached in the chassis. Could be just conveniently bending rod, too, but that could be pretty fiddly to manufacture.
Of course. Should have understand it in no time, must be only because of the local menu of the holidays. Must be that this ham we eat here has somehow ended in my head and replaced normal gray substance called "brains"
I think it is just a pivoted attachment to the spring/suspension wire, to achieve longer linear (more or less) excursion.
I guess there is a real pivot/bearing built in the nut where another end of the shorter, heavier carbin rod is attached in the chassis. Could be just conveniently bending rod, too, but that could be pretty fiddly to manufacture.
Of course. Should have understand it in no time, must be only because of the local menu of the holidays. Must be that this ham we eat here has somehow ended in my head and replaced normal gray substance called "brains"
I'll try to give some info on the Fertin model 7.
The model 7, is a driver which the rubber surround has been
removed. The weight of the surround is about the same weight
as the cone. Also , the cone is decoupled from the basket.
This reduces the distortion from the cone break-up. The effect on
the sound : everything becomes clear, transparent,
especially in the mid-bass and bass.
To keep the cone centered, Fertin uses very light and thin carbon
wires. These are attached to 3 different places on cone and the
basket.But the cone is free to move up and down, as you can see
in the picture, but not laterally; thus keeping the cone centered.
You can pass a thin sheet of paper between the basket and the one
and this all around the driver. The space is 1mm. There are not
more cancellation from this than you have in a regular rubber cone.
As for the spider , it's a different technique. The spider is made
of carbon strips that are attached to the back plate and the cone.
The fs of the model 7 is 31hz.
You can use and amp of 2w to 200w to drive the cone.
As you see, the cone being free to move without the resistance
of the surround; you don't need much volume to make it work
as loud as a regular driver. Full range driver are best driver
by NNFB , class A amp (current amp) (read Nelson Pass article)
As to : did anyone hear them? Well for those who want to listen
to the Fertin model 7, you can at the CES2009 in the DaVinci room.
Peter Brem of DaVinci audio has chosen to build an open-baffle:
the Virtù loudspeaker using a 20ex model 7 and 2 pairs
of 30ex model 7.
The Vivaudiolab has a neet design using a surroundless driver.
It difficult to find out how he keeps the cone centered: a type of
mechanical device, ferrofluid? The efficiency is low: 87db and the
cone is rather small (3inch), not much info.
If you have info on other surrounless driver, it would be interesting
to learn about them.
The Fertin model 7 is available in any size from 13cm to 46cm.
http://www.da-vinci-audio.com/
The model 7, is a driver which the rubber surround has been
removed. The weight of the surround is about the same weight
as the cone. Also , the cone is decoupled from the basket.
This reduces the distortion from the cone break-up. The effect on
the sound : everything becomes clear, transparent,
especially in the mid-bass and bass.
To keep the cone centered, Fertin uses very light and thin carbon
wires. These are attached to 3 different places on cone and the
basket.But the cone is free to move up and down, as you can see
in the picture, but not laterally; thus keeping the cone centered.
You can pass a thin sheet of paper between the basket and the one
and this all around the driver. The space is 1mm. There are not
more cancellation from this than you have in a regular rubber cone.
As for the spider , it's a different technique. The spider is made
of carbon strips that are attached to the back plate and the cone.
The fs of the model 7 is 31hz.
You can use and amp of 2w to 200w to drive the cone.
As you see, the cone being free to move without the resistance
of the surround; you don't need much volume to make it work
as loud as a regular driver. Full range driver are best driver
by NNFB , class A amp (current amp) (read Nelson Pass article)
As to : did anyone hear them? Well for those who want to listen
to the Fertin model 7, you can at the CES2009 in the DaVinci room.
Peter Brem of DaVinci audio has chosen to build an open-baffle:
the Virtù loudspeaker using a 20ex model 7 and 2 pairs
of 30ex model 7.
The Vivaudiolab has a neet design using a surroundless driver.
It difficult to find out how he keeps the cone centered: a type of
mechanical device, ferrofluid? The efficiency is low: 87db and the
cone is rather small (3inch), not much info.
If you have info on other surrounless driver, it would be interesting
to learn about them.
The Fertin model 7 is available in any size from 13cm to 46cm.
http://www.da-vinci-audio.com/
I'm the first buyer of these loudspeakers. Unsatisfied by the classical technologies ( classic surround electrodynamic, electrostatic, isodynamic ), I was looking during 3 years for something really musical and I was lucky to discover Fertin ans its HP 20EX model 7 which I bought in november 2007.
I'm not a technician and I don't understand technical specifications. But what I hear is enough. Since I meet regularly with musicians, I invited some of them to listen with me. A composer,a pianist and, better, an organist who uses to give concerts on different organs; he also participates eventually to some instrumental concerts.
He was totally stunned to hear such clearness so that he felt himself inside the orchestra. As for the organ, he could compare the smallest nuances of different organs, which he could never achieve with any audio system. He is totally seduced.
I believe that the musicians judgment is worth all curves and technical specifications. Do you look inside the engine when you are driving ?
I don't and I look at the country.
I'm not a technician and I don't understand technical specifications. But what I hear is enough. Since I meet regularly with musicians, I invited some of them to listen with me. A composer,a pianist and, better, an organist who uses to give concerts on different organs; he also participates eventually to some instrumental concerts.
He was totally stunned to hear such clearness so that he felt himself inside the orchestra. As for the organ, he could compare the smallest nuances of different organs, which he could never achieve with any audio system. He is totally seduced.
I believe that the musicians judgment is worth all curves and technical specifications. Do you look inside the engine when you are driving ?
I don't and I look at the country.
Right. The principal is the contrary of classical mehods : a membrane extremely light ( mine are 10 grammes ) moved by a very powerful engine without friction, allowing a veru high efficiency ( the 20EX model 7 excitation is 98 db ). Therefore you need very little power from the amplifier ( 2/3 watts only ) and, consequently, smaller. I don't like tubes, so I chose a digital amplifier much less expensive.Its a different combination.
Presently, the cost of these loudspeakers will be about 2000€ each as from the first of january. Fertin is thinking of loudspeakers including a digital amplifier, but it's not ready yet. Should be soon.
The Web site is also to be improved.
Presently, the cost of these loudspeakers will be about 2000€ each as from the first of january. Fertin is thinking of loudspeakers including a digital amplifier, but it's not ready yet. Should be soon.
The Web site is also to be improved.
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