My wife and I have just come in from a concert at Hamer Hall in Melbourne, once more blown away by the MSO.
How many and what size of drivers do you think I need to realistically reproduce the sound of this particular concert//
Music from Space operas like 2001/Star Wars/ etc:
Orchestra had 6 double bass and two sets of tympani ( thats 8 kettle drums ) as well as the big bass drum, some how I don't think one (1) 12inch woofer per side is going to do it.
On the way home in the train SWMBO turned to me and said " 'we need new speakers" ' where do I start??
Mid-range isn't my problem as I will use Vifa P11's ( I have 4 of these and I think they are reasonable in power handling SPL and sound quality ) my query relates more to bass and midbass.
Bearing in mind that here in Australia we don't have an extensive range of drivers to choose from and the budget is limited to around $1200-
I am thinking of using Tempests for the bottom octave and there goes most of the budget, this new set will probably be tri-amped and power isn't an issue.
Do I continue with the "Eathers" using the B-139's in a sealed box as planned and add a good sub woofer or four or start new plans for something really big??
Regards
How many and what size of drivers do you think I need to realistically reproduce the sound of this particular concert//
Music from Space operas like 2001/Star Wars/ etc:
Orchestra had 6 double bass and two sets of tympani ( thats 8 kettle drums ) as well as the big bass drum, some how I don't think one (1) 12inch woofer per side is going to do it.
On the way home in the train SWMBO turned to me and said " 'we need new speakers" ' where do I start??
Mid-range isn't my problem as I will use Vifa P11's ( I have 4 of these and I think they are reasonable in power handling SPL and sound quality ) my query relates more to bass and midbass.
Bearing in mind that here in Australia we don't have an extensive range of drivers to choose from and the budget is limited to around $1200-
I am thinking of using Tempests for the bottom octave and there goes most of the budget, this new set will probably be tri-amped and power isn't an issue.
Do I continue with the "Eathers" using the B-139's in a sealed box as planned and add a good sub woofer or four or start new plans for something really big??
Regards
Moondog55 said:
I think you're jumping steps in asking this question. What is more to the heart of the matter is the RMS and peak SPL at the concert and its dependence on frequency. That can be determined (bring an RTA with) and if you know it you can determine what equipment you will need to reproduce it.
There is not going to be an answer in the form of a number and size of drivers, as the output of the system can vary widely depending on the design of the driver, the enclosure, the power used, and the placement within the room. For example, suppose you have four 12s and a fixed amount of power; if you put them in sealed boxes and locate them at the four midpoints of the walls of the room, and compare that with them ported and located in the four corners, you'd be looking at on the order of 15 dB difference in output.
If I had to give you a number, I would guess you need to be able to hit peaks of somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 dB from 30 Hz to 100 Hz to do what you want.
Re: Re: How Much Bass Is Enough???
That can easily be done with one ported 18" per side (certain ones), such as the Ciare 18.00 SW. I doubt it'd be very low distortion though.
On the other hand, I believe there's more to it than simply reproducing certain SPL's. It won't sound the same, especially if you're in a small room. Try a massive room, at least the size of a large gymnaisium.. except imagine the whole thing extensively treated and planned for acoustics.. then imagine lots of horn loaded woofers, or something like that. At that point, you're probably getting close.
Rybaudio said:
That can easily be done with one ported 18" per side (certain ones), such as the Ciare 18.00 SW. I doubt it'd be very low distortion though.
On the other hand, I believe there's more to it than simply reproducing certain SPL's. It won't sound the same, especially if you're in a small room. Try a massive room, at least the size of a large gymnaisium.. except imagine the whole thing extensively treated and planned for acoustics.. then imagine lots of horn loaded woofers, or something like that. At that point, you're probably getting close.
Well, you'll need ~90 dB average (loud) to get the soft passages above the noise floor with +30 dB transients since that's all any symphony CD has TTBOMK, so a pair of these (or equivalent) with the 1200 W recommended power will barely suffice, but they will be both bass and treble shy, so a similar output IB system to fill in the bottom end and efficiency matching super tweeter system to add as much of the top end 'air' as the CD allows will get you into the hall's entrance, but it will take mass quantities of room correction to get that 'you are there' spaciousness of a large venue.
With only a $1200 budget though, spending it on control room spec treatment will probably get you closer to the sense of 'you are there' than the sheer dynamics of it will, though admittedly the latter can be very thrilling.
GM
With only a $1200 budget though, spending it on control room spec treatment will probably get you closer to the sense of 'you are there' than the sheer dynamics of it will, though admittedly the latter can be very thrilling.
GM
G'day Moondog55
I guess you've just discovered why some of us have systems rated at 100dB/W/M and have kilowatts of drive on tap. It's certainly not for playing Metallica at live levels
And no, the Vifa's won't cut it unless you can build a floor to ceiling line array with them. A more suitable midbass per side would be something like a pair of B&C 8NDL51. Team that up with a nice compression driver (B&C, 18 Sound or BMS) and an 8 by 15" IB for bass and you'll pretty much have the speakers covered for not too many $$$.
It strikes me that you've just started a very interesting journey!
Have fun...
William Cowan
I guess you've just discovered why some of us have systems rated at 100dB/W/M and have kilowatts of drive on tap. It's certainly not for playing Metallica at live levels
And no, the Vifa's won't cut it unless you can build a floor to ceiling line array with them. A more suitable midbass per side would be something like a pair of B&C 8NDL51. Team that up with a nice compression driver (B&C, 18 Sound or BMS) and an 8 by 15" IB for bass and you'll pretty much have the speakers covered for not too many $$$.It strikes me that you've just started a very interesting journey!
Have fun...
William Cowan
Thanks for that guy's, I sort of knew all that, and I knew the budget was unrealistic but my wife thinks we need to spend the money on unimportant things like rent and food and while I could persuade her to spend a little more ( maybe $2100- ) that would be the limit.
Trying to reproduce concert levels at home isn't going to be obtainable given my listening room restraints and limited budget; BUT I'd like to get as close as I can.
It's not often that ones wife gives you permission to start a new project before you've finished the current one.
As to the environment, I do need to build a couple of bass traps, and an absorbing panel for the ceiling; but the rest of the room treatment is OK
Regards Ted
Trying to reproduce concert levels at home isn't going to be obtainable given my listening room restraints and limited budget; BUT I'd like to get as close as I can.
It's not often that ones wife gives you permission to start a new project before you've finished the current one.
As to the environment, I do need to build a couple of bass traps, and an absorbing panel for the ceiling; but the rest of the room treatment is OK
Regards Ted
Moondog55 said:
You're welcome!
Hmm, I doubt it unless you have either a very large, open room with modes beginning in the single digits or a high percentage of your walls behind the listening position are covered in Schroeder diffusers or similar to make the room 'disappear' into a virtual large space.
You're right though, you sure don't want to pass up your S.O.'s momentary lapse of reason.
GM
I don't think any of the proposed options make any sense. IB (sealed) for subs is a horrible way to utilize money. Multiple smaller midranges (dual 8s) has little advantage over one larger one and costs more. Using high-technology pro sound subwoofers at $400/ea is very inefficient money wise. The more frequency divisions (e.g. using supertweeters) the more drivers you need and the more you need to invest in crossovers and/or amps.
The best route is to keep things as simple as possible, use basic drivers, and design carefully. For example, the following speaker arrangement may get you where you want to go:
(2) Eminence PSD2002 (on 15" mouth waveguides, 1 kHz up)
(2) Eminence Beta 15s (ported, tuned to 30 Hz, 1 kHz-down)
(3) cheap car/home 12" or 15" subs (ported, tuned to 30 Hz, 80 Hz-down)
With, say, 100x2 on the horns, 200x2 on the midbasses, and a few hundred to each sub you should be able to get close. You see, in this setup you are doing things efficiently; the configuration is minimal but without weak points, the enclosures are the maximally efficient way to use the drivers, you're using all of the capability of each driver (horns play to 1k, 15s play up to where they narrow and down low to use excursion), and the drivers are all a very good value. At low frequencies you have 5 sources so you can distribute them over the room and get a smooth and spatially robust response.
I can get that driver set for about $400 (w/o any inside connections), but I understand the prices (and company of best value) may be different where you're at. For processing and amps you can use a Behringer DCX2496, two A500s, and an EP2500. Here you can find that (or equivalent products) used for $700-800. The key is to efficiently use your money- to use as simple of a design as possible and choose drivers that are of high value.
The best route is to keep things as simple as possible, use basic drivers, and design carefully. For example, the following speaker arrangement may get you where you want to go:
(2) Eminence PSD2002 (on 15" mouth waveguides, 1 kHz up)
(2) Eminence Beta 15s (ported, tuned to 30 Hz, 1 kHz-down)
(3) cheap car/home 12" or 15" subs (ported, tuned to 30 Hz, 80 Hz-down)
With, say, 100x2 on the horns, 200x2 on the midbasses, and a few hundred to each sub you should be able to get close. You see, in this setup you are doing things efficiently; the configuration is minimal but without weak points, the enclosures are the maximally efficient way to use the drivers, you're using all of the capability of each driver (horns play to 1k, 15s play up to where they narrow and down low to use excursion), and the drivers are all a very good value. At low frequencies you have 5 sources so you can distribute them over the room and get a smooth and spatially robust response.
I can get that driver set for about $400 (w/o any inside connections), but I understand the prices (and company of best value) may be different where you're at. For processing and amps you can use a Behringer DCX2496, two A500s, and an EP2500. Here you can find that (or equivalent products) used for $700-800. The key is to efficiently use your money- to use as simple of a design as possible and choose drivers that are of high value.
Hi GM, when I said that the room treatment is OK I should have said that; given we rent any permanent treatment isn't appropriate and what i have done so far to treat reflection in mid and high frequencies is all Ican do at this time.
The room is a VERY lossy L-shape 36 M^ and only 3.3M high, with old style plaster over stud wall construction, and until we win the lottery or build our own place we live with what we have.
If I have permission to start a new project, I also have to use as many of the drivers I already have, I was given 4 Vifa P-13's for my birthday and SWMBO wants me to use them.
If it's going to be difficult if not impossible to get 120dB at peaks without compression then I think we would settle for some extra depth in the bass.
This project is seperate to the home theatre and only for music and we have eclectic taste but extension to 25Hz would be the target, even if we don't get the SPL.
However we would like to be able to hear the music over the top of the unmuffled Harley's that use the street here.
Rybaudio I hear what you are saying but WAF is low on that ( I showed some pix and she said "NO"B
The room is a VERY lossy L-shape 36 M^ and only 3.3M high, with old style plaster over stud wall construction, and until we win the lottery or build our own place we live with what we have.
If I have permission to start a new project, I also have to use as many of the drivers I already have, I was given 4 Vifa P-13's for my birthday and SWMBO wants me to use them.
If it's going to be difficult if not impossible to get 120dB at peaks without compression then I think we would settle for some extra depth in the bass.
This project is seperate to the home theatre and only for music and we have eclectic taste but extension to 25Hz would be the target, even if we don't get the SPL.
However we would like to be able to hear the music over the top of the unmuffled Harley's that use the street here.
Rybaudio I hear what you are saying but WAF is low on that ( I showed some pix and she said "NO"B
Moondog55 said:
Exactly. Which is why I mentioned the driver I did. It has its disadvantages, but as far as SPL/ft^3, it's hard to beat. 122-123 dB per driver (anechoic, before room gain) before exceeding Xmax with RMS power rating applied, in 5 cubic feet tuned to 30 Hz.. -3dB @ 28Hz without LR4 highpass xo at 23 Hz.. -3dB @ 32 Hz with it. With this setup, expect short peaks in excess of 125 dB per driver before reaching mathematical mechanical limits with enough power on hand. And this is just a single woofer before any room gain is factored in. Use a pair, and it's easily in the 130's in room down to 30 Hz. Not too bad IMO. Like I said though.. very stiff cone and small VAS for Sd.. not the most suitable for all apps.
You act like your recommended solution is by far the most easily attainable because it uses cheap Eminence drivers and 'cheap car 12" or 15" subs', while everyone else's comments 'don't make any sense'. In reality, your comments are by far the most ludicrous. The amount of space it'd take to create the kind of SPL's mentioned above in a room using 'cheap car subs' is absurd.
And like I said, it won't sound like the real deal regardless. Just loud. I think you'd stand a much better chance with a massive listening room, as previously mentioned.
Moondog55: As for using this thread to help you accomplish something or work towards a goal that's realistic and actually attainable, other than just worthless BS talk that'll never become anything constructive.. If you're simply wanting a more powerful and realistic sound, among other things, high efficiency is the way to go IMO, as others have already stated.
If you aren't able to make your own horns/waveguides, I would suggest either contacting Dr. Geddes about getting a pair of his, or settle for the 10" DDS waveguide. A handful of people have had good success mating the DDS with several of the 1" BMS drivers. Match that with one of the cleaner 10" midwoofers, like the B&C 10HPL64, or something similar. Highpass the high freq driver as low as you can until things start getting nasty (I believe the DDS ENG 1-90 starts losing directivity at around 1.5KHz). Regardless of which 10" (or even 12", but I wouldn't suggest it unless you're going to use a larger waveguide), the enclosure is going to be pretty small, unless it's a higher MMS which wouldn't be as efficient, clean, or sound as good in the lower mids as a lighter cone. Design a vented enclosure for it. You'll be using an electronic LR4 high pass xover well above the vent tuning, and you'll be able to highpass it a lot lower (150-200 Hz with nearly an octave of room below that) while still only being thermally limited, as you'll never approach anywhere near the driver's rated Xmax. Below that, use a 15-18" driver of your choice.. Possibilities are endless here. You could even take it further by using a midwoofer with even higher power handling, and instead of ending with a vented 3-way.. use something like an Eminence Deltalite II 2515 in a 3 cubic foot sealed cab, which would give you -3dB @ 80 Hz, and design whatever subwoofers you want to use below that.
Just trying to provide ideas, that's all.
Just trying to provide ideas, that's all.
BHTX just checked out the "Ciare 18 inch " driver, i could not find a distributor here in Australia, cheapest price I found was $320USD, that makes them about $550 AUD by the time I get them, then I would have to add customs charges and tax, best bet I've found in that case is the "Exodus Maelstrom" at $649- AUD each or the "Exodus Tempest" at $342 AUD each.
I'm thinking that either of these in a reasonable sealed box would give me an extra octave and in the short term perhaps I can be happy with that; if we build and put in a dedicated room then I'll start to think BIG.
And I beleive the concert was peaking at over 120dB as my ears did ring a bit afterwards ( for 2o minutes or so )
I'm thinking that either of these in a reasonable sealed box would give me an extra octave and in the short term perhaps I can be happy with that; if we build and put in a dedicated room then I'll start to think BIG.
And I beleive the concert was peaking at over 120dB as my ears did ring a bit afterwards ( for 2o minutes or so )
Moondog55 said:
According to Dr. Geddes's paper the best way to do this is with several moderate size subwoofers scattered around the room at somewhat random locations. You can read this paper on his web site. According to his approach spending large money on one mega driver won't solve the problem cause by the properties of the small room. The best solution is to have several modest subwoofers around the room which energize a broader range of the room modes instead of the ones which are energized by a single big subwoofer placement.
I would think that 1 big 4 cubic foot bass reflex sub with a 15 inch driver tuned low and stuck in a back corner combined with 3 12 inch sealed subwoofers of around 2 cubic feet scattered around the room and of smaller size so easier to place would work nice. Each could be made for 250 USD.
For front speakers I think the Elsinore approach using four mid/bass and bass drivers is good for dynamics. Especailly if you were to use drivers of high sensitivity already.
Moondog55 said:
..Yeah, I was afraid of that. As far as that goes, I have four rare 15" XBL^2 woofers for sale that are very similar to those you mention (except they work very well in a MUCH smaller enclosure), and you could probably get them from me for quite a bit less. But to be completely honest, I'm not so sure that'd be the best route for you to take at this point. Mainly, paying that much for drivers just because you're in Australia is ridiculous.
Just curious.. which 12's are you using that you mentioned at the beginning of this thread?
After you've thought some things over a bit, you might actually want to gather what options you have as far as drivers that are more readily available to you. What drivers CAN you get reasonably?
Looks like Eighteen Sound has an Australian distributor. Several good drivers to look at there. I've come across several positive experiences regarding their XT120 horn, but it's elliptical and won't go as low as even the DDS ENG 1-90 (which still doesn't go low enough IMO). Unfortunately, that might end up being the best option for you though, as far as money is concerned. I believe DDS is based in TX, and I'm not so sure you could get them without high shipping costs, etc. Aside from that, there are also a few mid drivers there of interest: http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx
Beyma also has a distributor in Australia. They have some really interesting drivers, particularly midbass and woofers. Definitely worth looking into: http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/
Eminence does too. They manufacture a very select few drivers that might be of interest, like the Lil'Buddy 10, Delta Pro 12-A, and a couple others: http://www.eminence.com/support/australia.asp
I can't seem to get the B&C site to load at the moment, so can't check there right now.
As far as subwoofers go, all the best for the money that comes to mind at the moment aren't so easily attainable for you, and the cost would likely be outrageous.
Like I mentioned previously, you might want to ask Geddes about his custom waveguides (if he's still offering them, haven't checked lately), and/or his Nathan 10 / ESP10 kit. It's actually priced pretty reasonably IMO. With a pair of those in the right room and the right woofers to support them.. should definitely knock your socks off for the money spent. And it'd be by far the easiest route, as all the hard work has already been done for you.
Re: Re: How Much Bass Is Enough???
I once tried this in the past, long before I ever saw this paper. The results were less than satisfactory, to say the least. It does make sense though, but for some reason didn't work at all for me. I tried all the possible configurations I could think of, too. Perhaps I should try it again though, especially since I'm in a different place now than I was then.
Hezz said:
I once tried this in the past, long before I ever saw this paper. The results were less than satisfactory, to say the least. It does make sense though, but for some reason didn't work at all for me. I tried all the possible configurations I could think of, too. Perhaps I should try it again though, especially since I'm in a different place now than I was then.
I was getting some help with a T/L for a 12inch Cerwin Vega car sub, the old style 124.which I currently have in a sealed box.
But I was thinking of that driver for Home-theatre use, Cecile would like me to use the 4 B-139s that are sitting here, if I use T/L's for those the WAF goes away as the boxes are simply too big and overpower the room, I was therefore thinking of using those as the mid-bass up to 200 or so and then the 4inch Vifa P-11 ( I have the older model with spec's very similar to the newer PL 11 ) or the ones she gave me for my birthday Vifa P-13's
Car subs are CHEAP here compared to Hi-Fi drivers and I do have a big sealed box for a 15inch Kicker but a 250litre box had vvvery low WAF and it is now outside in the shed.
I need to balance the furniture with the sound
But I was thinking of that driver for Home-theatre use, Cecile would like me to use the 4 B-139s that are sitting here, if I use T/L's for those the WAF goes away as the boxes are simply too big and overpower the room, I was therefore thinking of using those as the mid-bass up to 200 or so and then the 4inch Vifa P-11 ( I have the older model with spec's very similar to the newer PL 11 ) or the ones she gave me for my birthday Vifa P-13's
Car subs are CHEAP here compared to Hi-Fi drivers and I do have a big sealed box for a 15inch Kicker but a 250litre box had vvvery low WAF and it is now outside in the shed.
I need to balance the furniture with the sound
High efficiency is nice, but to get efficiency at low frequencies you'll need huge cabinets. Power is easier to come by these days, thanks to cheap made-in-China "pro" amps.
A thorough survey of available car subs ought to turn up some that are similar to old favourites like the NHT 1259, Adire Shiva and Tempest, etc.
A thorough survey of available car subs ought to turn up some that are similar to old favourites like the NHT 1259, Adire Shiva and Tempest, etc.
Moondog55 said:
"How many and what size" depends on an SPL target, something discussed here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121893
when You know what is Your SPL target (that depends on many factors like Your room, the music You listen to etc.) You can use this calculator: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/spl_max1.xls
best regards,
graaf
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