I still have some Dynaudio 15W75 Esotec (8 Ohm version) on hand and want to make some nice small satelite speakers with them.
The most typical choice for the tweeter would of course be some 28mm Esostar, but they are not sold anymore and expensive like hell.
Next traditional choice would be the Morel MDT-33...
But to be honest, I am not fan of ferrofluid at all. In the beginning ferrofluid is great, of course.... But after some years?! I remember some Audax midrange speakers, which I used in the early 90s. After about 8 years the ferrofluid had moved into the cone paper....
Once burned fingers... I am now looking for a suitable tweeter without ferrofluid. For example the Seas No Ferro 650 is looking not so bad for me. Any experiences with that?
Also other proposals are highly welcome.
Bye
Markus
The most typical choice for the tweeter would of course be some 28mm Esostar, but they are not sold anymore and expensive like hell.
Next traditional choice would be the Morel MDT-33...
But to be honest, I am not fan of ferrofluid at all. In the beginning ferrofluid is great, of course.... But after some years?! I remember some Audax midrange speakers, which I used in the early 90s. After about 8 years the ferrofluid had moved into the cone paper....
Once burned fingers... I am now looking for a suitable tweeter without ferrofluid. For example the Seas No Ferro 650 is looking not so bad for me. Any experiences with that?
Also other proposals are highly welcome.
Bye
Markus
Good independent CSD / harmonic distortion testing can be found here:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/
and:
http://www.markk.claub.net/Testing/testing.htm
Both Mark and Zaph (John) are respected builders / testers.
Cheers,
David.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/
and:
http://www.markk.claub.net/Testing/testing.htm
Both Mark and Zaph (John) are respected builders / testers.
Cheers,
David.
I successfully removed the ferrofluid from several tweeter magnets. If you take a piece of normal printer A4 paper you can suck it all up. It can be tricky to remove the dome from the magnet though....
It did reduce distortion levels quite dramatically!
It did reduce distortion levels quite dramatically!
Thanks for these great links. Unfortunately my browser is in trouble with displaying Mark's measurements....
From Zaph's measurements I start to like the Peerless 810921. And it seems to be without ferrofluid, nice. Hm, I would need to reduce the level by 3-4db..
Unfortunately I have no idea how these measurement results should look in order to please my ears....!
I know that my ears are very often happy with Dynaudio systems. Always when I am going to listen to different speakers, in the end one of the top three is Dynaudio. Some people say they sound boring and mud..., my ears say they sound decent. Usually there is not a big 'Yeah-Effect' at the beginning, but the longer I listen the more I enjoy them. This is exactly the opposite from what I observed with most other systems. Especially the systems which tend to jump into your face and might give a very spontanoius feeling in the beginning start to annoy me after half an hour, becoming intrusive, ...nervous..
And NO I am not mostly listening to classic music. I usually listen to Rock/Pop radio. Also often Metallica, Apocalyptica, AC/DC, Gary Moore, Guns 'n Roses, Papa Roach, The Offspring, Nirvana, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nightwish, Rammstein, Kiss, Helloween, The Rasmus, Foreigner... means I definitely do like a big variety of the more powerful stuff. Only once and a while classic.
Back to topic:
How does the Peerless appear from subjective impression? More decent or is it one of the more agressive ear intrusers?
Or if we want to try it with a more technical approach, what would be typical characteristics of any 28mm Esotec in comparable measurements?
V-bro:
I do not really want to buy a speaker, where I already know from beginning that I have to modify... I mean I would pay for the ferrofluid, have work with removing it and (if things are running wrong) might end up in a mistuned speaker...
From Zaph's measurements I start to like the Peerless 810921. And it seems to be without ferrofluid, nice. Hm, I would need to reduce the level by 3-4db..
Unfortunately I have no idea how these measurement results should look in order to please my ears....!
I know that my ears are very often happy with Dynaudio systems. Always when I am going to listen to different speakers, in the end one of the top three is Dynaudio. Some people say they sound boring and mud..., my ears say they sound decent. Usually there is not a big 'Yeah-Effect' at the beginning, but the longer I listen the more I enjoy them. This is exactly the opposite from what I observed with most other systems. Especially the systems which tend to jump into your face and might give a very spontanoius feeling in the beginning start to annoy me after half an hour, becoming intrusive, ...nervous..
And NO I am not mostly listening to classic music. I usually listen to Rock/Pop radio. Also often Metallica, Apocalyptica, AC/DC, Gary Moore, Guns 'n Roses, Papa Roach, The Offspring, Nirvana, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nightwish, Rammstein, Kiss, Helloween, The Rasmus, Foreigner... means I definitely do like a big variety of the more powerful stuff. Only once and a while classic.
Back to topic:
How does the Peerless appear from subjective impression? More decent or is it one of the more agressive ear intrusers?
Or if we want to try it with a more technical approach, what would be typical characteristics of any 28mm Esotec in comparable measurements?
V-bro:
I do not really want to buy a speaker, where I already know from beginning that I have to modify... I mean I would pay for the ferrofluid, have work with removing it and (if things are running wrong) might end up in a mistuned speaker...
Hi, ChocoHolic
You can buy a kit with x-over and tweeter (Vifa dx-25) from Wayne Parham @ Pi Speakers. Wayne is an excellent acoustics Master a great friend and very helpfull too.
You can buy a kit with x-over and tweeter (Vifa dx-25) from Wayne Parham @ Pi Speakers. Wayne is an excellent acoustics Master a great friend and very helpfull too.
Hi Inductor,
I had a look to Pi WebPage and found that a Kit contains all drivers + x-over. But I am just looking for a tweeter.
This speaker project is just resulting from the fact that I am putting out of duty this subwoofer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25015&highlight=
and am now using two Sadhara cubes
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55880&highlight=
Means I suddenly do have 12 pieces (11+1backuppiece) of 15W75 Esotecs on hand... and I think that I could make nice small satelites with that... giving me any freedom for using in stereo, quadro, home theatre.... I am still not sure if I should go for 12 mini satelites or may be 6 systems with d'Appolito arrangement.....
But your posting pushed me to have a closer look to the Vifa DX-25. Hey man this seems to be a nice budget tweeter. On the other hand I am not sure how (if possible at all) to transform the measurement data into my personal audiophile perception... An uncertain feeling is causing me to guess that my ears would like the Peerless 810921 more, but it is just a feeling...
May be I have to play around with different tweeters before buying all 12....
I had a look to Pi WebPage and found that a Kit contains all drivers + x-over. But I am just looking for a tweeter.
This speaker project is just resulting from the fact that I am putting out of duty this subwoofer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25015&highlight=
and am now using two Sadhara cubes
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55880&highlight=
Means I suddenly do have 12 pieces (11+1backuppiece) of 15W75 Esotecs on hand... and I think that I could make nice small satelites with that... giving me any freedom for using in stereo, quadro, home theatre.... I am still not sure if I should go for 12 mini satelites or may be 6 systems with d'Appolito arrangement.....
But your posting pushed me to have a closer look to the Vifa DX-25. Hey man this seems to be a nice budget tweeter. On the other hand I am not sure how (if possible at all) to transform the measurement data into my personal audiophile perception... An uncertain feeling is causing me to guess that my ears would like the Peerless 810921 more, but it is just a feeling...
May be I have to play around with different tweeters before buying all 12....
sreten said:
Hi Sreten,
you mean the low Q resonance of the impedance is indicating a high mechanical damping, which is caused by ferrofluid?
Hm... have to dig deeper...
I would definitely prefer the Hiquphon OW4 instead of the OW1, because I would like to x-over around 2kHz with 2nd order.
Hm... I send a mail to Peerless and asked about the ferrofluid. Let's see what they answer.
Hm... I send a mail to Peerless and asked about the ferrofluid. Let's see what they answer.
I came to the conclusion that the only way to get the information about the opinion of my ears is to listen to
the different speakers.
So far I simply bought one set of each of the following types and hand carried them from my last Europe trip:
Vifa 27 TBC/G
Peerless 810921
Morel MDT-33
After first playing around this afternoon I came to the conclusion that the Vifa is not my tweeter. Well of course it is probably worth its money, but I am missing sound stage and my overall perception is slightly closed & squishy. I think I will not use it at all.
The Peerless and Morel are both nice.
First impression is satisfying sound stage & natural voices. The Morel is pleasing my ears with a lovely easy resolution in the very highs... ...will go on to listen to both during the next months.
I think I have to go on and listen to more different tweeters. May be some Hiquphons ? Or ribbon tweeters? ...ribbons have the disavantage that they are normally not suited for 2-way systems... hm...
😉
Listening fun ahead...
🙂
the different speakers.
So far I simply bought one set of each of the following types and hand carried them from my last Europe trip:
Vifa 27 TBC/G
Peerless 810921
Morel MDT-33
After first playing around this afternoon I came to the conclusion that the Vifa is not my tweeter. Well of course it is probably worth its money, but I am missing sound stage and my overall perception is slightly closed & squishy. I think I will not use it at all.
The Peerless and Morel are both nice.
First impression is satisfying sound stage & natural voices. The Morel is pleasing my ears with a lovely easy resolution in the very highs... ...will go on to listen to both during the next months.
I think I have to go on and listen to more different tweeters. May be some Hiquphons ? Or ribbon tweeters? ...ribbons have the disavantage that they are normally not suited for 2-way systems... hm...
😉
Listening fun ahead...
🙂
...well today I played around with the first attempt for a proper 24db/oct x-over...
Still not optimized and I will keep the wild outside set up of the x-over until the x-over is really ready, but already the first trial is not harmful to my ears.
Here the version in grey stone with MDT-33 Tweeter.
The MDT-33 has a nice character 🙂
Still not optimized and I will keep the wild outside set up of the x-over until the x-over is really ready, but already the first trial is not harmful to my ears.
Here the version in grey stone with MDT-33 Tweeter.
The MDT-33 has a nice character 🙂
Attachments
... version with Peerless 810921 in green marble to come..
BTW regarding all these stone and marble things I was quite concerned regarding resonances of the stone/marble. Fortunately I found that it can be completely clamed down by installing inside a wood plate which is glued between the walls with addidtional rubber dampers. ...This method is turning even a bell more calm than most wood cabinets, -amazing.
BTW regarding all these stone and marble things I was quite concerned regarding resonances of the stone/marble. Fortunately I found that it can be completely clamed down by installing inside a wood plate which is glued between the walls with addidtional rubber dampers. ...This method is turning even a bell more calm than most wood cabinets, -amazing.
Attachments
I am curious, how is the story going on? I am presently torn between both Peerless and Morel as well.... but I have a Retro-Dynaudio combination with the 30w-100 and d76...
Does anyone know of published stored energy or CSD plots for the MDT-33 on the net? Mark K and Zaph do not have.... 🙁
Thanks and regards,
Leif 🙂
Does anyone know of published stored energy or CSD plots for the MDT-33 on the net? Mark K and Zaph do not have.... 🙁
Thanks and regards,
Leif 🙂
leifislive said:
How the story is going on:
Slow, very slow..
Sorry for that. Due to exciting oportunities in multiple areas I opened to many projects at the same time...
But regarding the MDT-33, we measured the frequency response and found a strong peak around 10kHz. Unexpected thing is that this peak is quite unbalanced. Morel is stating that they sell matched pairs, but in fact one piece has about 2-3db peak at 10kHz, while the other one has about 6db!
Another phenomenon was that absolutely everybody prefers the sound if the tweeter is connected with wrong (unflipped) polarity, showing a deep dip around the 2kHz crossover frequency. ...one case more where human listening perception does not correlate with the frequency response at all...
Despite all these strange findings, my ears still like these stone speakers more than my Dynaudio Contour 1.3 ...
A peak in the 10k region can be quite nice, I know from EQing orchestra recordings... However, the MDT 33 attracted me as a neutral, almost Hiquphon like 25mm dome due to MarkK's measurements, so what can I say 🙁
Anyway, does this unlinearity show up off axis and remains constant under different angles? If so, one could easily linerize it (since I am going to build an acive system no problem for me if something alike happens).
Did you check, whether it affects the CSD or did you do energy storage measurements?
Thanks for your answers. Will help me to evaluate this driver more in detail. Personally, I somehow like morel, especially since they are claiming to sell matched pairs. However, I have heard quite often, that they have build-consistency problems with their drivers, which would be very sad...
Best,
Leif
Anyway, does this unlinearity show up off axis and remains constant under different angles? If so, one could easily linerize it (since I am going to build an acive system no problem for me if something alike happens).
Did you check, whether it affects the CSD or did you do energy storage measurements?
Thanks for your answers. Will help me to evaluate this driver more in detail. Personally, I somehow like morel, especially since they are claiming to sell matched pairs. However, I have heard quite often, that they have build-consistency problems with their drivers, which would be very sad...
Best,
Leif
We only measured on axis.
Furtheron the measurement was done with the tweeter mounted in the stone box, not standardised baffle.
We were afraid that our measurement was suffering from baffle difraction, but experiments with antidifraction pads did not change the fundamental character.
Sorry, no measurements for CSD or energy storage.
Cheers & have fun with your examinations.
I am also enjoying the game with different tweeters....
Furtheron the measurement was done with the tweeter mounted in the stone box, not standardised baffle.
We were afraid that our measurement was suffering from baffle difraction, but experiments with antidifraction pads did not change the fundamental character.
Sorry, no measurements for CSD or energy storage.
Cheers & have fun with your examinations.
I am also enjoying the game with different tweeters....
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