Was going to initially paint my whole speakers but now that I think about it, I might end up going with birch veneered 3/4" playwood on the side, with the front baffle covering up the "sandwhich". I decided to run down to Lowes and buy a 2x2 piece of it to play around with. I chose Olympic oil-based red oak stain and bought some spray Olympic interior oil based Polyurethane Gloss Finish, which the Lowes guy recommended over the kind you use with a brush.
Ok...took the birch ply home. Used 220 grit and went over it a few times to make it nice and smooth. Cleaned it well with a tack sheet. Applied a liberal amount of stain with an old t-shirt chopped up and let it sit for 10 minutes. The stain says to let it sit for 5-15, so I picked the middle. I wiped off the excess and it looks nice, BUT there are blotches on it of uneven absorbtion and the grain didn't take in as much of it. I'm sure this is just a characteristic of birch and other soft woods, but was wondering if there's something else I should do? I went to Olympic's site and they say to use their Olympic Wood Conditioner. Here's what they say about it on their site:
For soft woods such as pine, apply a liberal amount of Olympic Wood Conditioner to ensure uniform stain penetration. Wait 5 to 10 minutes and wipe off excess. Stain within 2 hours.
• Allows soft wood to absorb stain evenly
Does this stuff work and would it have fixed my problem? I only bought this sheet to test out on. Seeing how light birch is do you think I should have went with a lighter stain? I was hoping to get a deep, rich red color, but it doens't look like that's going to happen.
I just recently applied a second coat, and in one section, I saturated the heck out of it to see if that helps.
Oh well, thanks for reading if you got this far and I'd love to hear some suggestions!
Thanks!
EDIT:
Found this thread about a killer speaker this guy made. Check out the pics on page two of his speaker after the first coat of stain and then after he used some kind of sanding sealer? Any idea what this stuff does?
Ok...took the birch ply home. Used 220 grit and went over it a few times to make it nice and smooth. Cleaned it well with a tack sheet. Applied a liberal amount of stain with an old t-shirt chopped up and let it sit for 10 minutes. The stain says to let it sit for 5-15, so I picked the middle. I wiped off the excess and it looks nice, BUT there are blotches on it of uneven absorbtion and the grain didn't take in as much of it. I'm sure this is just a characteristic of birch and other soft woods, but was wondering if there's something else I should do? I went to Olympic's site and they say to use their Olympic Wood Conditioner. Here's what they say about it on their site:
For soft woods such as pine, apply a liberal amount of Olympic Wood Conditioner to ensure uniform stain penetration. Wait 5 to 10 minutes and wipe off excess. Stain within 2 hours.
• Allows soft wood to absorb stain evenly
Does this stuff work and would it have fixed my problem? I only bought this sheet to test out on. Seeing how light birch is do you think I should have went with a lighter stain? I was hoping to get a deep, rich red color, but it doens't look like that's going to happen.
I just recently applied a second coat, and in one section, I saturated the heck out of it to see if that helps.
Oh well, thanks for reading if you got this far and I'd love to hear some suggestions!
Thanks!
EDIT:
Found this thread about a killer speaker this guy made. Check out the pics on page two of his speaker after the first coat of stain and then after he used some kind of sanding sealer? Any idea what this stuff does?
Applying some kind of sealer can help prevent blotchiness by causing the stain to be absorbed more slowly and evenly. I'd also recommend wiping the stain on (no puddles or streaks!) and then wiping it off. You can always stain it darker, but you can't go backwards with veneer.
If you want a red oak finish, is there a reason you can't use red oak veneer ply? You can do a lot with stains, but you can't turn birch into mahogany no matter what the can says.
If you don't like the color you are getting, other options include getting a few different colors, do test swabs, and then mix some together to get the shade you want.
If you want a red oak finish, is there a reason you can't use red oak veneer ply? You can do a lot with stains, but you can't turn birch into mahogany no matter what the can says.
If you don't like the color you are getting, other options include getting a few different colors, do test swabs, and then mix some together to get the shade you want.Gah, it won't let you edit a post twice!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37921&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=2
That's the thread I was referring to.
I really don't like the look of oak because of the harsh grain it has. I'm trying to build these speakers on a budget and the birch ply is pretty reasonable. I've been reading up on staining birch for the last few hours and I guess it's a real PITA. Maybe I could try a tung oil or something?
Thanks!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37921&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=2
That's the thread I was referring to.
I really don't like the look of oak because of the harsh grain it has. I'm trying to build these speakers on a budget and the birch ply is pretty reasonable. I've been reading up on staining birch for the last few hours and I guess it's a real PITA. Maybe I could try a tung oil or something?
Thanks!
Blotchy Birch
You have run into a well known problem with your staining. I've made this post countless times so here it goes again.
A blond shellac or a stain conditioner is what will cure your ills. Let it dry about a half an hour and then stain over it. Brush on the stain across the grain and let it sit a bit. Wipe it off in the direction of the grain and see if you like the colour. If you do fine, if not do it again. When using a pre-stain it is very important to not let it dry to long. Each can has different instructions but they all boil down to not overnight etc.
With the proper treatment you can make birch into a thing of beauty.
Mark
You have run into a well known problem with your staining. I've made this post countless times so here it goes again.
A blond shellac or a stain conditioner is what will cure your ills. Let it dry about a half an hour and then stain over it. Brush on the stain across the grain and let it sit a bit. Wipe it off in the direction of the grain and see if you like the colour. If you do fine, if not do it again. When using a pre-stain it is very important to not let it dry to long. Each can has different instructions but they all boil down to not overnight etc.
With the proper treatment you can make birch into a thing of beauty.
Mark
For soft woods such as pine, apply a liberal amount of Olympic Wood Conditioner to ensure uniform stain penetration. Wait 5 to 10 minutes and wipe off excess. Stain within 2 hours.
• Allows soft wood to absorb stain evenly
This is VERY IMPORTANT on most soft woods. Yes, it will prevent the blotch thing. Minwax also has a decent conditioner.
• Allows soft wood to absorb stain evenly
This is VERY IMPORTANT on most soft woods. Yes, it will prevent the blotch thing. Minwax also has a decent conditioner.
Rock on!
I'll be running to Lowes in the next couple of hours and will report back with how well it works.
You state to put the stain on against the grain, not with it like the cans and instructions state? Also, you said 30 minutes to let the conditioner dry for, but the Olympic can says 10 minutes, then wipe off. Just seeing if you know a better way from experience or if you used a different kind.
Thanks!
I'll be running to Lowes in the next couple of hours and will report back with how well it works.
You state to put the stain on against the grain, not with it like the cans and instructions state? Also, you said 30 minutes to let the conditioner dry for, but the Olympic can says 10 minutes, then wipe off. Just seeing if you know a better way from experience or if you used a different kind.
Thanks!
Staining birch
either use a gel stain or an analine dye. birch along with a few other woods like poplar, pine, and some others have verying pore sizes and don't take kindly to standard stains. Analine dyes are available from woodcraft and rockler stores, but I would try a gel stain first just becasue you can get it at home depot.
either use a gel stain or an analine dye. birch along with a few other woods like poplar, pine, and some others have verying pore sizes and don't take kindly to standard stains. Analine dyes are available from woodcraft and rockler stores, but I would try a gel stain first just becasue you can get it at home depot.
I'll try the gel stain as well. The birch ply I got has 2 sides to it and it's only a test piece, so what I'll do is sand the whole thing, put a piece of masking down the middle and then across to form 4 sections. Then I'll use the conditioner on 2 pieces, and the other 2 I won't use any. I'll gel and regular stain a conditioned piece, and then apply them again to the untreated to see how everything compares. I'm sure the conditioned will look much better so maybe I'll just condition the whole thing and do 50/50 gel and oil stain.
As far as sanding, I only have a 220 now. Think I should get a 120 and 180 as well? Also, sand with the grain or is it ok to go against it?
Thanks again and sorry if I'm asking elementary stuff. mwmkravchenko, I'll do a post search by your name to see what I can come up with.
As far as sanding, I only have a 220 now. Think I should get a 120 and 180 as well? Also, sand with the grain or is it ok to go against it?
Thanks again and sorry if I'm asking elementary stuff. mwmkravchenko, I'll do a post search by your name to see what I can come up with.
sounds like a stain "shoot-out"
I like it. I have never bothered to do such an experiment, but I would love to hear about (and maybe see?) how your birch ply looks after using all the different types of stain on them. I have always just used tung oil or very light stain because that matches the cabinets I have around. But my next set of cabinets will have to be dark. Thank you for sharing your results with us.
I like it. I have never bothered to do such an experiment, but I would love to hear about (and maybe see?) how your birch ply looks after using all the different types of stain on them. I have always just used tung oil or very light stain because that matches the cabinets I have around. But my next set of cabinets will have to be dark. Thank you for sharing your results with us.
stain conditioner
I don't think you are suppsed to use a gel stain with stain conditioner, and just to let you know stain conditioner is just mineral spirits, or laquer thinner, I forgot which. Check the ingredients on the can. Analine dyes are mixed with denatured alchohol. I would say that dyes can be your best bet when used lightly and mixed thouroughly. They are also easy to topcoat by comparison.
I don't think you are suppsed to use a gel stain with stain conditioner, and just to let you know stain conditioner is just mineral spirits, or laquer thinner, I forgot which. Check the ingredients on the can. Analine dyes are mixed with denatured alchohol. I would say that dyes can be your best bet when used lightly and mixed thouroughly. They are also easy to topcoat by comparison.
Birch doesn't stain very well. So I guess I second the earlier post. Sure, conditioner will help, but it's never going to look natural. My general feeling is that if you want a darker wood with a closed pore grain akin to birch or maple, you should use cherry.
If you must darken birch, the best way is to use tinted lacquer, or garnet shellac if you're feeling adventurous.
GB
If you must darken birch, the best way is to use tinted lacquer, or garnet shellac if you're feeling adventurous.
GB
In the last few hours I used the other side of the birch veneer and tested it out. Made a few sections to see how it would come out:
Conditioner + Oil Stain = Looks SOO much better than without a conditioner. I used a cherry stain this time and it looks remarkable.
Conditioner + Gel Stain = Looks better than the oil with no conditioner but not by much. The oil stain looks noticebly better.
Gel Stain only - Barely better than oil alone. Definately wouldn't use this with birch.
I used all Olympic products and followed the directions to a T. I haven't tried conditioner with the dark red oak oil stain yet but will do so tomorrow. Bought another sheet of 24x24 2-sided birch ply to give it a try.
Thanks for the advice so far!
Conditioner + Oil Stain = Looks SOO much better than without a conditioner. I used a cherry stain this time and it looks remarkable.
Conditioner + Gel Stain = Looks better than the oil with no conditioner but not by much. The oil stain looks noticebly better.
Gel Stain only - Barely better than oil alone. Definately wouldn't use this with birch.
I used all Olympic products and followed the directions to a T. I haven't tried conditioner with the dark red oak oil stain yet but will do so tomorrow. Bought another sheet of 24x24 2-sided birch ply to give it a try.
Thanks for the advice so far!
Whats going ON???
Glad to hear that it is working out for you guys. I just thought that I would explain a bit what is happening when you use a pre-stain. You are really only colouring the pre-stain with your stain. That is the whole idea. The shellac that is in most of them(pre-stain sealers) forms a sealing layer and is (while it not thoroughly dry) still tintable with the stain pigments. That is what allows an even colour. The idea of using aniline dyes is the best way to go. But this is not for the faint of heart as they are best mixed with the sealer coats and usually sprayed ( but you can with the right brush and thin even coats do the same ) and built up untill you get the desired colour. They do however provide the greatest grain definition and clarity. Hope this helps.
Mark
Glad to hear that it is working out for you guys. I just thought that I would explain a bit what is happening when you use a pre-stain. You are really only colouring the pre-stain with your stain. That is the whole idea. The shellac that is in most of them(pre-stain sealers) forms a sealing layer and is (while it not thoroughly dry) still tintable with the stain pigments. That is what allows an even colour. The idea of using aniline dyes is the best way to go. But this is not for the faint of heart as they are best mixed with the sealer coats and usually sprayed ( but you can with the right brush and thin even coats do the same ) and built up untill you get the desired colour. They do however provide the greatest grain definition and clarity. Hope this helps.
Mark
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.