I am looking for opinions on a DIY speaker design/kit.
They will be used exclusively for 2 channel audio and I dont wan't a sub. Cost is not really an issue.
They need to be able to handle rock, dance and large scale orchestral music.
Good fast bass with PRAT for Metallica, Chemical Brothers e.t.c
My music tastes are varied but my limited experience with speakers so far has shown me that a lot of the audiophile ones are voiced for Norah Jones and struggle with popular recordings.
Solid state componants will be used.
Any suggestions?
They will be used exclusively for 2 channel audio and I dont wan't a sub. Cost is not really an issue.
They need to be able to handle rock, dance and large scale orchestral music.
Good fast bass with PRAT for Metallica, Chemical Brothers e.t.c
My music tastes are varied but my limited experience with speakers so far has shown me that a lot of the audiophile ones are voiced for Norah Jones and struggle with popular recordings.
Solid state componants will be used.
Any suggestions?
Something along these lines should do the job well :
http://www.users.nac.net/markowitzgd/david/david.htm
Biamping with line level passive crossovers for the
bass / mid integration seems a good way to go to me,
and avoids some expensive crossover components.
A 2 way, 2.5 way MTM or a 2 way MTM could cut the
mustard if your listening level requirements are lower.
http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/Proteus.html
sreten.
http://www.users.nac.net/markowitzgd/david/david.htm
Biamping with line level passive crossovers for the
bass / mid integration seems a good way to go to me,
and avoids some expensive crossover components.
A 2 way, 2.5 way MTM or a 2 way MTM could cut the
mustard if your listening level requirements are lower.
http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/Proteus.html
sreten.
hacknet said:
To my ears; being able to clearly distinguish between the bass guitar and bass drum is fundamental to an enjoyable rock sound. (i find the 100Hz hump in a cheap speakers bass o/p to make it sound bigger than it is detrimental in this respect)
But for the type of rock music i listen to, not highlighting the poor recording quality is also an issue.
IMO its a question of expectation.
All you really need is good deep fastish bass that will play clean,
(most cheap and small loudspeakers fall over here), and a balance
suited to good levels, rather than the more laid back balance
typically used for listening at "acoustic" levels.
At moderate levels a rock speaker sounds a little "middy",
upping the volume is needed to bring up the bass and to
a lesser extent the treble.
Things improve immeasurably with good reproduction of the
drum kits bass drum "kick", again small and wimpy speakers
simply don't deliver here. IMO this needs bass in-room down
to the lower 30's, not difficult if you know what your doing.
Distortion performance is an issue, as this is generally directly
related to input power power, higher sensitivity speakers have
lower distortion and are more suited to higher level playback.
Matching the speaker to the room is critical for good levels,
simply put the bigger the room the bigger the speaker you
need, also a fairly lively room acoustic is better for rock than
the more ideal damped acoustic suited to say classical music.
Also note for smaller rooms a "big" speaker is not required,
but it must have a good bass unit capable of some throw,
overdamped reflex's tuned to the low 30's work well.
Its not difficult using passive line level EQ to have alternative
balances for a speaker for "normal" and "loud" use.
sreten.
All you really need is good deep fastish bass that will play clean,
(most cheap and small loudspeakers fall over here), and a balance
suited to good levels, rather than the more laid back balance
typically used for listening at "acoustic" levels.
At moderate levels a rock speaker sounds a little "middy",
upping the volume is needed to bring up the bass and to
a lesser extent the treble.
Things improve immeasurably with good reproduction of the
drum kits bass drum "kick", again small and wimpy speakers
simply don't deliver here. IMO this needs bass in-room down
to the lower 30's, not difficult if you know what your doing.
Distortion performance is an issue, as this is generally directly
related to input power power, higher sensitivity speakers have
lower distortion and are more suited to higher level playback.
Matching the speaker to the room is critical for good levels,
simply put the bigger the room the bigger the speaker you
need, also a fairly lively room acoustic is better for rock than
the more ideal damped acoustic suited to say classical music.
Also note for smaller rooms a "big" speaker is not required,
but it must have a good bass unit capable of some throw,
overdamped reflex's tuned to the low 30's work well.
Its not difficult using passive line level EQ to have alternative
balances for a speaker for "normal" and "loud" use.
sreten.
sreten said:
An interesting comment (to me) in that my (limited) experience has shown me that a speaker that is voiced "laid back" will come alive at higher levels required for rock reproduction. eg B&W. Therefor making this type of voicing ideal for rock
Whereas a forward speaker will excel at acoustic levels, but become edgy at higher levels. e.g. Acoustic research AR152sreten said:
Also interesting, because in my experience the aforementioned bass "effect", can be totally erradicated by the use of a good stiff/krell type power amp PSU. Which *would* mean the effect is not a function of the speaker at all.
Mark25 said:
An interesting comment (to me) in that my (limited) experience has shown me that a speaker that is voiced "laid back" will come alive at higher levels required for rock reproduction. eg B&W. Therefor making this type of voicing ideal for rock
Also interesting, because in my experience the aforementioned bass "effect", can be totally erradicated by the use of a good stiff/krell type power amp PSU. Which *would* mean the effect is not a function of the speaker at all.
The bass effect is all too real, the louder it is the more apparent
bass, a speaker with good deep bass at moderate levels can
start to become overblown in the bass at high volume, however
I agree the better the quality of the bass the less an issue this is.
Many speakers are too bright in the treble and become
overbearing at high volume, but this isn't midrange voicing.
A classic "acoustic level speaker" has exaggerated frequency
extremes, whilst speakers designed for high level tend to have
reticent but tight bass and to a lesser extent restrained treble.
Most speakers come "alive" when plied with juice within their
limits, and I'm not suggesting for a second a speaker with
exaggerated or poor midrange will sound anything better
than poor when you press the loud knob, it faults become
more obvious.
http://stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/204bw/index4.html
I wouldn't describe B&W's as voiced laid back generally, though
sometimes treble is too bright, they generally do sound better
when played at louder rather than lower levels.
I'd just class them as fairly neutral with restrained bass.
Your comments about forward speakers being good at low level
listening I don't understand, they lack depth and sound "small"
in my experience.
sreten.
Thanks for "filling me in" sreten.
IMO Acoustic research AR152 and lower range Naim models.
IMO Wilmslow HSM, which is what i use (and recomended for rock in this thread)
Agreed (IMO Acoustic research AR152), but if you play simple acoustic material on a speaker voiced this way, you can get some real "hairs up on the back of the neck" magic. But if you turn up the wick
sreten said:
IMO Acoustic research AR152 and lower range Naim models.
sreten said:
IMO Wilmslow HSM, which is what i use (and recomended for rock in this thread)
sreten said:
Your comments about forward speakers being good at low level
listening I don't understand, they lack depth and sound "small"
in my experience.
Agreed (IMO Acoustic research AR152), but if you play simple acoustic material on a speaker voiced this way, you can get some real "hairs up on the back of the neck" magic. But if you turn up the wick
It depends on the rock. Old 50s stuff like buddy holly or elvis sounds best on a good horn system. 70's american rock sounds typically best on JBL L100's, old AR3's, or the like. Though it's contrary to audiophile ethics, some compression from a box type speaker is more helpful than hurtfull for most rock, and a laid back midrange helps too. For whatever reason, I've heard 70's rock sound good on more laid back horns too - ie, Altec.
Often times british stuff sounds best on mini monitors with a BBC dip. I find that it rarely sounds great on flat freq response full range monitors, presumably because it's so often mastered with BBC type speakers. Current american indie rock is often very well recorded and mastered, and will often sound excellent on very accurate speakers. The major label stuff is best on a boom box (or in a garbage can). Weird how the best fidelity is coming out of small studios these days.
GB
Often times british stuff sounds best on mini monitors with a BBC dip. I find that it rarely sounds great on flat freq response full range monitors, presumably because it's so often mastered with BBC type speakers. Current american indie rock is often very well recorded and mastered, and will often sound excellent on very accurate speakers. The major label stuff is best on a boom box (or in a garbage can). Weird how the best fidelity is coming out of small studios these days.
GB
Many on the Parts Express Tech Talk Forum have praised Wayne J's D3s as the ultimate frat/rock/party speaker. It offers strong bass and clear highs, exactly what you need for Metallica, Chemical Bros, etc. and you won't need a sub to back them up. Best of all, they can be had for about $150/pair. They wouldn't be my first choice for classical or jazz, but for rock...heck yeah. They will play loud and long and can take a beating.
Wayne J's D3s
Wayne J's D3s
This is a speaker I listened to and really thought was perfect for what I want
http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/index.php?page=cinema&kitid=F5
Twin Dayton Audio 6.5" Shielded Woofers, Vifa Poly Dome Tweeter, tower speaker in a TMM arrangement with a Linquitz optimized crossover.....
Similar to to Wayne J D3's it looks like
http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/index.php?page=cinema&kitid=F5
Twin Dayton Audio 6.5" Shielded Woofers, Vifa Poly Dome Tweeter, tower speaker in a TMM arrangement with a Linquitz optimized crossover.....
Similar to to Wayne J D3's it looks like
It's interesting to read a lot of this, as I have found so much of it to be true. I have a pair of speakers (use Vifa P17's and a Morel MDT-33) that sound very forward in the mids. The bass sucks, but they are helped with a very large subwoofer (sealed, 8- 8" woofers, electronically extended range). What is interesting is the way that the speakers "fill out" when the volume is increased. Even at moderate levels, they present more information in the midrange than I would have ever guessed was there on many rock and even metal recordings (which I don't listen to much these days). I will never go back to a speaker with an artificially augmented top and bottom sound (the hiss boom mass market garbage). There is so much more to hear. I think an accurate speaker will sound better on any recording that is recorded somewhat decently. A strong bottom end doesn't hurt with rock stuff though.
I would recomend you checking out the PI line of speakers. I've listened to a couple of different kits from them and have been quite impressed. They are able to produce extremely high spl, while keeping all the detail. also they have quite good bass. Not the best at imaging, but I wouldn't imagine that would be a concern with something like Metalica. The only real draw back that might turn you off is their large size. Otherwise I think they are the perfect rock&roll speakers.
just my 2 cents
Joe
PI Speaker kits
just my 2 cents
Joe
PI Speaker kits
TQWP for rock
I have similar music tastes to yourself and have recently paired a DIY set of TQWP speakers to a NAD cd AMP combo and am enjoying it no end. My cabinets are 1100cm tall with internal dimensions of 175mmx300mm using a vifa 6.5inch driver crossed to a vifa D19 dome tweeter at ~3khz bass is loud but subtle and speakers will handle a wide range of sound well.
I generally play Audioslave/tool/AIC/Strokes along with jazz and classical String symphonies
I have similar music tastes to yourself and have recently paired a DIY set of TQWP speakers to a NAD cd AMP combo and am enjoying it no end. My cabinets are 1100cm tall with internal dimensions of 175mmx300mm using a vifa 6.5inch driver crossed to a vifa D19 dome tweeter at ~3khz bass is loud but subtle and speakers will handle a wide range of sound well.
I generally play Audioslave/tool/AIC/Strokes along with jazz and classical String symphonies
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