Folks, with permission from the original author on the Transcendent Sound forum, I am reposting this here.
The issue is whether or not the Svet EL509s and EL509 IIs can produce the peak current of 1.4A of a real EL509.
Since I am in the middle of building OTLs that use the EL509 IIs (octal packaging of the el509), I would be most grateful for any help from folks on this forum to validate or invalidate this information.
-----------Original Post -----------
I've been thinking of sourcing the output tubes for my T8s from Techzotic in St. Petersburg, the very EL509 II that has been discussed in the past on this forum.
Well, yesterday I came across a post on AudioAsylum from a fellow named Morgan in Sweden, who criticized the EL509 II as being difficient in current. Instead of the Ia being 1400mA (the El509 spec), it is more like 500 or 600.
Since this might be of general interest, I reproduce the text of his reply to me below:
>>Hello,
Yes, my EL509-IIs were ordered direct from Techzotic. The product that Tube Builder markets is no doubt the same thing.
The peril of e-mail! I was a bit upset at the time, and expressed myself rather bluntly. These Russian tubes do not "suck" per se - they measure similarly to the published Svetlana curves (at www.svetlana.com).
The problem is in the naming: the Svet "EL509" and "EL509-II" are NOT EL509s, in the sense that this designation has been specified (and this spec also met in practice) both by American (RCA, Amperex) and European (Philips, Ei, etc) manufacturers. The RCA spec sheet specifies a peak current capability of 1400 mA at Vp and Vg2 = 160V. The Philips plate characteristics diagram carries this out.
According to George Kaye (Moscode), the new Serbian Ei tubes he's tested pretty much meet this spec, easily producing 1400 mA peaks. The Svetlana tubes I've tested manage between 500 and 650 mA... After mailing with Techzotic/Svetlana technical manager Sergey Susorov, my understanding is that their tubes meet the specs of the Russian 6P45S - which is what they are! (Yet, old 6P45S spec sheets indicate a tube very similar in characteristics to the Western EL509 ... mysterious).
So the problem is the same as has often been the case with Russian tubes: domestic models roughly similar to Western tubes marketed as equivalents to these, and also renamed using Western designations, under the brand names Sovtek or Svetlana. (Sovtek is not a factory, and although Svetlana is, some of their tubes, such as the 6S33SV, come from other factories.) Cases in point include 6N1P, marketed as equiv. to 6922/E88CC; SV83, marketed as an EL84; SV5881, which was actually just a tube similar to a 6L6, but not made for as high voltages (hence they sometimes broke
down in guitar amps - but this may have been fixed now, not sure). The list goes on...
So, whether you'll be happy with your Svet "EL509s" or not probably depends on your application. In an output transformerless amplifier, you will get far less power than you would expect. However, in a more conventional application, using perhaps 300-400Vp and an output transformer, you might not notice any difference in output, because the tube is not required to produce any peak currents higher than what the Svetlanas are capable of. However, your grid bias setting for a particular idle current might not match the spec sheet if you use the "real" EL509 spec sheets. Using the Svetlana sheet, you will be closer to reality. There is nothing to indicate that there is anything else wrong with the Sv EL509 - voltage and plate dissipation specs are probably quite conservative, actually. The plate is much larger than that of a 6550, yet only rated at 35W. I wouldn't be surprised if it could endure 45-50W. It's just the current spec that's way off base, which is only a problem in OTLs.
The bottom line is that the problem is not with the manufacturer, but with the way the tube has been marketed in the West as equivalent to EL509. I thought the spec sheet on the Svetlana site was just faulty - the scales wrong or something - but it actually reflects well how the
tube behaves. (That is, not as an EL509, but as a 6P45S!)
In sum: for OTL use, go for Ei EL519 or NOS EL509 or EL519. For other uses, the Svets are probably quite alright (possibly even better).
Best regards,
Morgan Lundberg<<
Any comments?
The issue is whether or not the Svet EL509s and EL509 IIs can produce the peak current of 1.4A of a real EL509.
Since I am in the middle of building OTLs that use the EL509 IIs (octal packaging of the el509), I would be most grateful for any help from folks on this forum to validate or invalidate this information.
-----------Original Post -----------
I've been thinking of sourcing the output tubes for my T8s from Techzotic in St. Petersburg, the very EL509 II that has been discussed in the past on this forum.
Well, yesterday I came across a post on AudioAsylum from a fellow named Morgan in Sweden, who criticized the EL509 II as being difficient in current. Instead of the Ia being 1400mA (the El509 spec), it is more like 500 or 600.
Since this might be of general interest, I reproduce the text of his reply to me below:
>>Hello,
Yes, my EL509-IIs were ordered direct from Techzotic. The product that Tube Builder markets is no doubt the same thing.
The peril of e-mail! I was a bit upset at the time, and expressed myself rather bluntly. These Russian tubes do not "suck" per se - they measure similarly to the published Svetlana curves (at www.svetlana.com).
The problem is in the naming: the Svet "EL509" and "EL509-II" are NOT EL509s, in the sense that this designation has been specified (and this spec also met in practice) both by American (RCA, Amperex) and European (Philips, Ei, etc) manufacturers. The RCA spec sheet specifies a peak current capability of 1400 mA at Vp and Vg2 = 160V. The Philips plate characteristics diagram carries this out.
According to George Kaye (Moscode), the new Serbian Ei tubes he's tested pretty much meet this spec, easily producing 1400 mA peaks. The Svetlana tubes I've tested manage between 500 and 650 mA... After mailing with Techzotic/Svetlana technical manager Sergey Susorov, my understanding is that their tubes meet the specs of the Russian 6P45S - which is what they are! (Yet, old 6P45S spec sheets indicate a tube very similar in characteristics to the Western EL509 ... mysterious).
So the problem is the same as has often been the case with Russian tubes: domestic models roughly similar to Western tubes marketed as equivalents to these, and also renamed using Western designations, under the brand names Sovtek or Svetlana. (Sovtek is not a factory, and although Svetlana is, some of their tubes, such as the 6S33SV, come from other factories.) Cases in point include 6N1P, marketed as equiv. to 6922/E88CC; SV83, marketed as an EL84; SV5881, which was actually just a tube similar to a 6L6, but not made for as high voltages (hence they sometimes broke
down in guitar amps - but this may have been fixed now, not sure). The list goes on...
So, whether you'll be happy with your Svet "EL509s" or not probably depends on your application. In an output transformerless amplifier, you will get far less power than you would expect. However, in a more conventional application, using perhaps 300-400Vp and an output transformer, you might not notice any difference in output, because the tube is not required to produce any peak currents higher than what the Svetlanas are capable of. However, your grid bias setting for a particular idle current might not match the spec sheet if you use the "real" EL509 spec sheets. Using the Svetlana sheet, you will be closer to reality. There is nothing to indicate that there is anything else wrong with the Sv EL509 - voltage and plate dissipation specs are probably quite conservative, actually. The plate is much larger than that of a 6550, yet only rated at 35W. I wouldn't be surprised if it could endure 45-50W. It's just the current spec that's way off base, which is only a problem in OTLs.
The bottom line is that the problem is not with the manufacturer, but with the way the tube has been marketed in the West as equivalent to EL509. I thought the spec sheet on the Svetlana site was just faulty - the scales wrong or something - but it actually reflects well how the
tube behaves. (That is, not as an EL509, but as a 6P45S!)
In sum: for OTL use, go for Ei EL519 or NOS EL509 or EL519. For other uses, the Svets are probably quite alright (possibly even better).
Best regards,
Morgan Lundberg<<
Any comments?
Hi,
Morgan Lundberg is correct. This is exactly my experience too.
Ten to fifteen years ago I used to have the kind assistance of a technician who didn't mind drawing the curves of said tubes and we did arrive at the same conclusion as ML.
The same goes for alot of Chinese tubes, they are neighbours after all. Similar, yes, not exactly the same though.
BTW, I doubt EI still makes the EL519 to the exact Philips standards...
They do make the EL509, not quite the same either currentwise.
To most dealers/vendors these are the same but in reality, they're not.
IOW, the big current beast is the true EL519, I don't think there are still many around though.
Buying any is a risky business........
Cheers,
Morgan Lundberg is correct. This is exactly my experience too.
Ten to fifteen years ago I used to have the kind assistance of a technician who didn't mind drawing the curves of said tubes and we did arrive at the same conclusion as ML.
The same goes for alot of Chinese tubes, they are neighbours after all. Similar, yes, not exactly the same though.
BTW, I doubt EI still makes the EL519 to the exact Philips standards...
They do make the EL509, not quite the same either currentwise.
To most dealers/vendors these are the same but in reality, they're not.
IOW, the big current beast is the true EL519, I don't think there are still many around though.
Buying any is a risky business........
Cheers,
Svetlana's is more likely the 6П45C, or a modification thereof.
This tube was SSSR's answer to EL509. very similar.. i forget the differences though. I think higher heater current, and.. not sure what.
Here is some data for 6P45S. I cant seem to find more detailed data or graph :-/
http://www.qrz.ru/reference/tubes/russian/detail/6p45s_2.html
Lots of this is on the foreign distro centers, IMO.
by the way.
6N24P is almost same as ECC88, but much more cost than 6N1P.
In russia, 6N1P is considered more as "finger" version of 6N8S (~6SN7), Even though they are not that much the same, but still similar. 6N1P pretty much replaced 6N8S as time went on.. this is why.
Sub for EL84 is 6P14P - almost everything is the same, except 6P14P has 14w Pa instead of 12w.
This tube was SSSR's answer to EL509. very similar.. i forget the differences though. I think higher heater current, and.. not sure what.
Here is some data for 6P45S. I cant seem to find more detailed data or graph :-/
http://www.qrz.ru/reference/tubes/russian/detail/6p45s_2.html
Lots of this is on the foreign distro centers, IMO.
by the way.
6N24P is almost same as ECC88, but much more cost than 6N1P.
In russia, 6N1P is considered more as "finger" version of 6N8S (~6SN7), Even though they are not that much the same, but still similar. 6N1P pretty much replaced 6N8S as time went on.. this is why.
Sub for EL84 is 6P14P - almost everything is the same, except 6P14P has 14w Pa instead of 12w.
I'm not sure it's all that tongue in cheek. If they really can't deliver over 1A, then many other options become more sensible, including using xformer output instead.
So, the Svet EL509 needs 2.5A heater to deliver 500mA peak, while the real EL519 (that Ei makes) can do the same for 2.0A heater? Without further information, something is not making sense to me.
So, the Svet EL509 needs 2.5A heater to deliver 500mA peak, while the real EL519 (that Ei makes) can do the same for 2.0A heater? Without further information, something is not making sense to me.
Hi,
From memory; both sweep tubes can have tremendous amounts of peak current taken from the cathode, for a tube anyways.
The EL519 more so than the EL509.
Keep in mind that the way the data is presented can be confusing, the data for the Svet EL509 is, to the best of my knowledge, continuous current.
As said before I've used both European made EL519/509s and Soviet ones and the difference is not really significant on this parameter to be of concern.
Yes, the EL519 outperforms its brethren but I think they're long gone.
So, all in all, if you want to build an OTL using the EL509s or KT90, I'd say go for it...They'll deliver the current to the woofies...
Cheers,
From memory; both sweep tubes can have tremendous amounts of peak current taken from the cathode, for a tube anyways.
The EL519 more so than the EL509.
Keep in mind that the way the data is presented can be confusing, the data for the Svet EL509 is, to the best of my knowledge, continuous current.
As said before I've used both European made EL519/509s and Soviet ones and the difference is not really significant on this parameter to be of concern.
Yes, the EL519 outperforms its brethren but I think they're long gone.
So, all in all, if you want to build an OTL using the EL509s or KT90, I'd say go for it...They'll deliver the current to the woofies...
Cheers,
Frank, let me make sure I get this right because alot of time and $$ are depending on the answer.
The complaint about the Svetlana EL509 (as opposed to NOS versions, etc.) was that the peak cathode current from the Svet tube was only 500-600mA not the >1A that the real EL509 data sheets say.
Do your experiences say that the Svetlana EL509s can deliver the >1A peak current?
So, on the Svetlana EL509 plate curves, I see that at Vp=170, Vs=140, and Vg=0, the plate current is about 600mA. If I drive this tube to Vg=0, I'm only going to get 600mA out of it under peak conditions with these plate and screen voltages.
But the real EL509(PL509) specs show well over an amp at approximately the same conditions (Vs=160).
So, I am concluding that the Svet EL509 cannot deliver the peak current unless Svetlana's published specs are not accurate. Correct? Wrong?
The complaint about the Svetlana EL509 (as opposed to NOS versions, etc.) was that the peak cathode current from the Svet tube was only 500-600mA not the >1A that the real EL509 data sheets say.
Do your experiences say that the Svetlana EL509s can deliver the >1A peak current?
So, on the Svetlana EL509 plate curves, I see that at Vp=170, Vs=140, and Vg=0, the plate current is about 600mA. If I drive this tube to Vg=0, I'm only going to get 600mA out of it under peak conditions with these plate and screen voltages.
But the real EL509(PL509) specs show well over an amp at approximately the same conditions (Vs=160).
So, I am concluding that the Svet EL509 cannot deliver the peak current unless Svetlana's published specs are not accurate. Correct? Wrong?
Below is the reply I got from Tchzotic:
Regrettably features of tube 6P45S (EL509), provided in your e-mail do
not correspond to to reality, for comparison can refer to features in
official catalogue of enterprise Svetlana Electron Devices. On anode
feature is seen that under that importances of voltages Ug1 and Ug2 and
Up, Ip can not be more than 500 mA, such value happens to and Maximum
Ratings DC cathode current - 500mA. Similar features were provided in
soviet reference book on tubes (Kacnelson B., Larionov A. "Domestic
receiving-amplified of tube and their foreign analogues" 1981 year, page
330) Max ratings Ip - 500mA; Plate dissipation - 35W; even Ip puls
(Q=10)=>800mA under Un=5.76 =>700mA.
Thereby of feature provided in your e-mail do not correspond to to
reality. We can cite and on earlier reference books on this tube. Under
our measurements in pulsed mode (Up=50; Ug2=175 Ug1=-10v), main part of
tubes pack in limits Ip=600-900 mA that wholly made the customers of
this tube, which with beginning was developped in USSR for use in output
cascades of small unrolling, and is an analogue of tube EL509/6KG6. Us
have the samples of tube 6P45S different years of issue and we will be
able to conduct measurements in pulsed mode - in accordance with your
data,about results which we you report. In turn if tubes long were not
used you may their drill in different modes with current by return
approximately 50-100 hours, herewith, possible, increase the emission
characteristics of these tubes.
Best regards,
technical manager Techzotic
Best regards,
Dmitriy Susorov
It seesm to be that the 500ma is the DC steady current. Right? Wrong?
Regrettably features of tube 6P45S (EL509), provided in your e-mail do
not correspond to to reality, for comparison can refer to features in
official catalogue of enterprise Svetlana Electron Devices. On anode
feature is seen that under that importances of voltages Ug1 and Ug2 and
Up, Ip can not be more than 500 mA, such value happens to and Maximum
Ratings DC cathode current - 500mA. Similar features were provided in
soviet reference book on tubes (Kacnelson B., Larionov A. "Domestic
receiving-amplified of tube and their foreign analogues" 1981 year, page
330) Max ratings Ip - 500mA; Plate dissipation - 35W; even Ip puls
(Q=10)=>800mA under Un=5.76 =>700mA.
Thereby of feature provided in your e-mail do not correspond to to
reality. We can cite and on earlier reference books on this tube. Under
our measurements in pulsed mode (Up=50; Ug2=175 Ug1=-10v), main part of
tubes pack in limits Ip=600-900 mA that wholly made the customers of
this tube, which with beginning was developped in USSR for use in output
cascades of small unrolling, and is an analogue of tube EL509/6KG6. Us
have the samples of tube 6P45S different years of issue and we will be
able to conduct measurements in pulsed mode - in accordance with your
data,about results which we you report. In turn if tubes long were not
used you may their drill in different modes with current by return
approximately 50-100 hours, herewith, possible, increase the emission
characteristics of these tubes.
Best regards,
technical manager Techzotic
Best regards,
Dmitriy Susorov
It seesm to be that the 500ma is the DC steady current. Right? Wrong?
Will the real EL509 please stand up??
Hi, guys--
I'm the poster on the Transcendent Sound forum referred to in the original post.
The reply that ackcheng got from Techzotic was in fact sent to Morgan during their original exchanges, and has been pasted into several subsequent responses to me and others (nearly unintelligible English--probably a machine translation!).
It didn't reassure me then, and it doesn't now, that the Svet EL509 II will deliver the needed current IN AN OTL! Susorov holds out the possibility that MAYBE, with burn-in, the peak current will increase, but that's an awfully remote possibility.
I decided yesterday (how fast these things travel!) that I was going to cancel my order with Techzotic (luckily they agree to send back the money!) and go with the Ei EL519, which should give virtually the same performance as a "real" EL509.
Yes, it's a shame that the Svet EL509 II isn't really what it's cracked up to be, but I think it's time to move on...
Hi, guys--
I'm the poster on the Transcendent Sound forum referred to in the original post.
The reply that ackcheng got from Techzotic was in fact sent to Morgan during their original exchanges, and has been pasted into several subsequent responses to me and others (nearly unintelligible English--probably a machine translation!).
It didn't reassure me then, and it doesn't now, that the Svet EL509 II will deliver the needed current IN AN OTL! Susorov holds out the possibility that MAYBE, with burn-in, the peak current will increase, but that's an awfully remote possibility.
I decided yesterday (how fast these things travel!) that I was going to cancel my order with Techzotic (luckily they agree to send back the money!) and go with the Ei EL519, which should give virtually the same performance as a "real" EL509.
Yes, it's a shame that the Svet EL509 II isn't really what it's cracked up to be, but I think it's time to move on...
Hi,
In short, the Svet EL 509 is a close match to the European EL509 but, as expected, NOT a match for the EL519.
The latter isn't made anymore, I think, but was the sweep tube of choice to build OTLs.
However, and this is somewhat bizarre, the EI KT90 shows a very similar performance to the EL519....
This, in turn, make me wonder what exactly it is EI are still producing....
I mean, are they still manufacturing TV tubes for maintenance or not?
I know Narah in Brasil was, but that's ten years ago too and Brasil hardly imports anything....
Cheers,
In short, the Svet EL 509 is a close match to the European EL509 but, as expected, NOT a match for the EL519.
The latter isn't made anymore, I think, but was the sweep tube of choice to build OTLs.
However, and this is somewhat bizarre, the EI KT90 shows a very similar performance to the EL519....
This, in turn, make me wonder what exactly it is EI are still producing....
I mean, are they still manufacturing TV tubes for maintenance or not?
I know Narah in Brasil was, but that's ten years ago too and Brasil hardly imports anything....
Cheers,
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