hi guys,
are there some rules-of-thumb as to what determines the sound of a GC?
After building mine and listening to it for some time i have found the highs to be brilliant and nicely defined; the mids are a little low and the bass, although pretty tight, is not tight enough (methinks).
(detail: bass is tighter on 8ohm than on 4ohm speakers - I intend to use my GC on 8ohm speakers).
Will replacing /adding more of my 1000uF caps with higher value ones help in tightening the bass?
Does anybody have any idea on how to increase the mids?
Matthijs.
my gainclone page to be
are there some rules-of-thumb as to what determines the sound of a GC?
After building mine and listening to it for some time i have found the highs to be brilliant and nicely defined; the mids are a little low and the bass, although pretty tight, is not tight enough (methinks).
(detail: bass is tighter on 8ohm than on 4ohm speakers - I intend to use my GC on 8ohm speakers).
Will replacing /adding more of my 1000uF caps with higher value ones help in tightening the bass?
Does anybody have any idea on how to increase the mids?
Matthijs.
my gainclone page to be
That's the question you can only answer yourself. Since the sound of a GC is very dependant on the whole system, why don't you just add more capacitance and see how it will change the sound. I tried and I know what works for me, but your taste may be different. Anyway, it always pays to experiment.
In my system, more caps made the bass less tight and took the "magic" out of the midrange.
In my system, more caps made the bass less tight and took the "magic" out of the midrange.
matjans said:
I found the input decoupling cap had a large impact on sound quality. I initially had a cheap electrolytic which lacked bass then a large 4.7uF film cap which lacked highs. I added a .47uF film cap in parallel and defying all (my) logic, the highs came back and the bass tightened up. I'm still not completely happy though and am still looking for the perfect input cap. The first GC I built had Sprague 1000uF 50v caps and was really warm sounding, (they were the type used in early Fender guitar amps I think), this one has Nippon caps and has really clear mids but is not as warm but seems to be pretty good.
Still searching for that unatainable "perfect" sound. My hearing is a bit like a spoiled child - never quite satisfied whith what is given...always wanting more. I have a monkey on my back.
This is only a reflexion. There are rather many statements like this, the bass is that, the mid are this etc but I wonder (matjans) have you had perfect sound with the same speakers and some other amp? If you have tight bass or not, this is the speaker to 90% wich makes that.matjans said:
Anyway I'm fiddling with my Gainclone and time will tell if it reaches the day of light.
Re: Re: GC and mids
per, of course i haven't achieved perfect sound quality - if that even exists.
(and those speakers are just wharfdales, come on)
I have tried the wharfdales on some other amps, and they *should* produce a lot more mids... I have also tried some Linn Ninka's on the GC - which sounded pretty cool, especially the deepness of the bass, but even with those Linn's, which are known for their sparkling mids, it lacked some in just that band.
I'm just looking for ways to better / change the freq-balance of my amp while not forgetting the minimalistic design.
After all, to me DIY is about getting the best quality for -relatively- few euri. That, and just for the fun of it, of course.
peranders said:
per, of course i haven't achieved perfect sound quality - if that even exists.
(and those speakers are just wharfdales, come on)
I have tried the wharfdales on some other amps, and they *should* produce a lot more mids... I have also tried some Linn Ninka's on the GC - which sounded pretty cool, especially the deepness of the bass, but even with those Linn's, which are known for their sparkling mids, it lacked some in just that band.
I'm just looking for ways to better / change the freq-balance of my amp while not forgetting the minimalistic design.
After all, to me DIY is about getting the best quality for -relatively- few euri. That, and just for the fun of it, of course.
my amp uses 1uF input caps (don't no brand, i spent a total of $0 on the amp - it's all from scraps) and a total of 9200uF in the PSU (3600@80V at the PSU, 5600uF@40V on the power amp). amp is running running off +/-32V
bass is nice and tight, not excessive, not booming. highs are sweet, mids are clear. it's pretty damn good really - even through shoddy speakers, ALL the speakers i've tried on it sound good even totally mismatched randoms i have lying around!
i'm also using one of the "not recommended" (i.e "crap") stereo chips (LM1876TF) people say the mute and standby circuits affect the sound - but then most people tell you the 'facts' without trying them first. it's even built on stripboard. NOTHING is mounted particularly close to the chips pins (as recommended by 'experts') and there are no problems. no instability, no humming, no nothing but brilliant clear audio
moral of the story? don't believe what anyone tells you about anything - it's all personal preference but more importantly, it's all personal experimentation to find the sound you like. some like huge supply filtering, some like input caps, some like 'high quality" brand name caps, some like 1% tolerance resistors etc. but then thats them, not you
bass is nice and tight, not excessive, not booming. highs are sweet, mids are clear. it's pretty damn good really - even through shoddy speakers, ALL the speakers i've tried on it sound good even totally mismatched randoms i have lying around!
i'm also using one of the "not recommended" (i.e "crap") stereo chips (LM1876TF) people say the mute and standby circuits affect the sound - but then most people tell you the 'facts' without trying them first. it's even built on stripboard. NOTHING is mounted particularly close to the chips pins (as recommended by 'experts') and there are no problems. no instability, no humming, no nothing but brilliant clear audio
moral of the story? don't believe what anyone tells you about anything - it's all personal preference but more importantly, it's all personal experimentation to find the sound you like. some like huge supply filtering, some like input caps, some like 'high quality" brand name caps, some like 1% tolerance resistors etc. but then thats them, not you
matjans,
I build my GC using Peter's circuit and it is driving my ProAc 50 Signature. At the beginning I am using 2x680uF per rail and found the amp was struggling to drive the speaker. The highs was nice but the mid and the bass has no energy -- no kick.
I added one more 680uF to the rail and make it 2040uF and now I can feel the kick of the bass and mid with more energy, especialy for guitar. I am just using one EI tran with 200VA only.
I have tried the feedback resister with 300K, 250K and 220K and 240K. I don't realy know how to descibe the sound. Maybe I can say like this : with 200K (with 200K at non-inverted pin to ground) the sound was too "solid state"; with 300K (much gain)the mid was too thin and singeris far away (small ?) and sound stage was blurred; with 250K the mid was and sound stage was good but the high was still a bit too much for me. Finally I tried with 240K and everything is quite good for me now. The mid is with weight and bass is tight and vocal is nice.
This is for my system with tube pre-amp. Please try to play around with the feedback as Peter said, you wil find a lot of fun here.
Happy diy.....
I build my GC using Peter's circuit and it is driving my ProAc 50 Signature. At the beginning I am using 2x680uF per rail and found the amp was struggling to drive the speaker. The highs was nice but the mid and the bass has no energy -- no kick.
I added one more 680uF to the rail and make it 2040uF and now I can feel the kick of the bass and mid with more energy, especialy for guitar. I am just using one EI tran with 200VA only.
I have tried the feedback resister with 300K, 250K and 220K and 240K. I don't realy know how to descibe the sound. Maybe I can say like this : with 200K (with 200K at non-inverted pin to ground) the sound was too "solid state"; with 300K (much gain)the mid was too thin and singeris far away (small ?) and sound stage was blurred; with 250K the mid was and sound stage was good but the high was still a bit too much for me. Finally I tried with 240K and everything is quite good for me now. The mid is with weight and bass is tight and vocal is nice.
This is for my system with tube pre-amp. Please try to play around with the feedback as Peter said, you wil find a lot of fun here.
Happy diy.....
ir said:
I couldn't have agreed more. There are lots of urban legends about those chips and what one can do to improve the sound or to screw up unintentionally.
My experience with those chips has been that they are very easy going, and it is hard to make it sound superb or to sound aweful.
the NSC datasheet should be a starting point. Afterall, the engineers who designed the chips probably know a little bit more about the chips than the rest of us.
I have also found that certain frequencies can be perceived to be changed by adjusting the type and value of the small bypass caps either directly after the bridge or on the chip itself.I found that in my set up for example a 2.2uf polycarbonate tightened up the mid-bass (better than a 2.2 good polyprop) and .1uf polyprop gave more sparkle and air in the upper mids.
Deja-Vu?
moral of the story? don't believe what anyone tells you about anything - it's all personal preference but more importantly, it's all personal experimentation to find the sound you like. some like huge supply filtering, some like input caps, some like 'high quality" brand name caps, some like 1% tolerance resistors etc. but then thats them, not you
Well I'm geared to the exceptional rather than the average, the thing is you can achieve so much with this remarkable Amp concept, on the other hand you can build an Amp with junk parts that just 'works'. I guess its a question of ones personal taste, requirements and aproach to life in general!
Mozfet (Exploring the Boundaries of whats possible)
moral of the story? don't believe what anyone tells you about anything - it's all personal preference but more importantly, it's all personal experimentation to find the sound you like. some like huge supply filtering, some like input caps, some like 'high quality" brand name caps, some like 1% tolerance resistors etc. but then thats them, not you
Well I'm geared to the exceptional rather than the average, the thing is you can achieve so much with this remarkable Amp concept, on the other hand you can build an Amp with junk parts that just 'works'. I guess its a question of ones personal taste, requirements and aproach to life in general!
Mozfet (Exploring the Boundaries of whats possible)
exactly. my amp is based directly on the lm1876 datasheet
it's not even a gainclone. it's a National Semiconductor 20W stereo power amplifier
obviously tho soem parts are important, whilst not the brands etc, the values. Feedback resistors increase/decrease gain and the input cap if it's too small will filter out bass, and if it's to large, may decrease treble, so obviously a little experientation may be in order - altho the natsem datasheets listed value (1uF input cap, 20K feedback resistor - for my chip at least) will give you performance according to all their specs/graphs, ie within limits, without distortion etc.
i don't know why anyone calls them gainclones really, i mean i do know why, but honestly. most people are 'cloning' the National design verbatim! Who cares what some japanese company did - they probably just cloned the national design too but using high quality parts
after putting in another 1000uF for each rail (in total of 2000uF per rail) I found that the mids have cleared up a lot. The higher bass is a lot warmer (ie cello's) but the lower bass is somewhat sloppier/less tight.
I'll let 'er rip for some time. We'll see what happens....
o yeah, i updated my site
I'll let 'er rip for some time. We'll see what happens....
o yeah, i updated my site
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