I am currently trying to design my first set of DIY Speakers, which I would like to be of the bookshelf or small floorstanding type. I am thinking of using a Peerless 850467 Mid/Bass and a Seas Millenium Treble. Would these work well together?. Would I need a midrange? Are they are any alternative drive units I could use which would sound better?. Any help would be much appreciated.
The HDS 164 midbass might be a good one because it isn't the easiest to plan a crossover for because of the 6 dB rise from 1.5kHz to 5 kHz. Good one because you have a challenge there. The tweeter should be excellent and easy. If you want something overeasy take the Millenium tweeter and Seas CB17RCY/P coated paper midbass.
If you want more controlled vertical banding use two
Seas L15RLY/P 5" midbasses in MTM configuration with the Millenium tweeter just like in Froy kit but use the cheaper elements (just check the impedance compensation and resonant frequence LRC filter component values in Froy xover).
If you want more controlled vertical banding use two
Seas L15RLY/P 5" midbasses in MTM configuration with the Millenium tweeter just like in Froy kit but use the cheaper elements (just check the impedance compensation and resonant frequence LRC filter component values in Froy xover).
The Seas CB 17 RCY doesn't really have enough bass for me really (I listen heavy rock). However a Seas W17CY-001 is within my budget, and has a higher SPL than the Peerless driver, which is useful as I was intending using a DIY Death Of Zen Class A Amplifier from the schematic on Elliot Sound Products. Could I use the W17CY-001 as just a bass driver and the CB 17 RCY as a midrange?
I agree with mhelin that the Peerless 850467 might be tricky because the rising response would mean additional components in the crossover.
I would also advise against the Seas unit for the same reason: the extreme cone break-up (the large peaks in response) would also have to be tamed in the crossover. If you decide to build the Froy kit then these would obviously be corrected by the designer but going it alone with your own XO design would be tricky.
For a first design, use drivers that have a flat passband with smooth roll-off charactristics. If you intend to crossover at, say, 3KHz then flat response to 4 or 5KHz would make for a fairly simple crossover.
You don't mention a budget but I reccomend the Audax TM025F1 as a very good tweeter and only £12 from Maplin. The Vifa P17WJ-00-08 (£40 from Wilmslow) is pretty flat, but I've never heard one in action so can't comment on the sound.
Good luck with your project.
Nice one,
David.
I would also advise against the Seas unit for the same reason: the extreme cone break-up (the large peaks in response) would also have to be tamed in the crossover. If you decide to build the Froy kit then these would obviously be corrected by the designer but going it alone with your own XO design would be tricky.
For a first design, use drivers that have a flat passband with smooth roll-off charactristics. If you intend to crossover at, say, 3KHz then flat response to 4 or 5KHz would make for a fairly simple crossover.
You don't mention a budget but I reccomend the Audax TM025F1 as a very good tweeter and only £12 from Maplin. The Vifa P17WJ-00-08 (£40 from Wilmslow) is pretty flat, but I've never heard one in action so can't comment on the sound.
Good luck with your project.
Nice one,
David.
Could I use a graphic equalizer to compensate for the peaks in the sound for a more even response or would that make it sound worse due to extra things in the audio path etc? Surely if I built it myself and used decent parts, making sure that I only rolled off the relevant frequencies and used an SPL meter to check that the response was flat across the spectrum then it would sound good? I have an OK knowledge of electronics, so this shouldn't be too much of a problem. Also, having an equaliser would surely be useful, as I could have pots controlling the level of other frequencies, which I could bypass when listening normally, but switch on and use to boost bass etc for parties.
L15RLY/P
Seas:
L15RLY/P: 1.0 cm (max linear coil travel p-p) x 75 cm^2 = 75 cm^3
2.0 cm (max. p-p) x 75 cm^2 = 150 cm^3
P17REX/P : 0.6 cm x 120 cm^2 = 72 cm^3
1.2 cm x 120 cm^2 = 144 cm^3
CB17RCY/P : 0.8 cm x 125 cm^2 = 100 cm^3
1.6 cm x 125 cm^2 =200 cm^3
8": Seas L21 : 1.2 x 220 = 264 cm^3
2.2 x 220 = 484 cm^3
L
Vifa:
P17WJ-00-08 : 0.8 cm (voice coil height - air gap = max. linear throw) x 136 cm^2 = 108 cm^3
1.4 cm x 136 cm^2 = 190.4 cm^3
Vifa seems to have more effective output volume of the 17 cm woofers, but still significantly less than two L15's (that's 150 cm^3 linear and 300 cm^3 max.) a'la Froy (btw, you can use the same xover, at least resonance freq. is at 10k region with both of them, and zobel doesn't have huge impact anyway).
I think you would like metal cone woofers if you listen to metal music
. Seriously, I have two set of speakers with Seas metal cones and also listen to metal music (not so much heavy metal though), they sound so much better. You just have to tune the box a little bit lower (below 40 Hz anyway) and implement the baffle step correction (not present on Froy as such). You can also build an active baffle step correction circuit and put it before your amp (http://sound.westhost.com/index.html site have such a circuit which is also tunable) and use Froy MkIII xover as such.
Audax may be a good and cheap tweeter, actually I'm just putting together HDS164 & TM025F1 speaker (just for PC speakers). HDS164 needs two baffle step sections in it's xover (I may though build active system after all).
Seas:
L15RLY/P: 1.0 cm (max linear coil travel p-p) x 75 cm^2 = 75 cm^3
2.0 cm (max. p-p) x 75 cm^2 = 150 cm^3
P17REX/P : 0.6 cm x 120 cm^2 = 72 cm^3
1.2 cm x 120 cm^2 = 144 cm^3
CB17RCY/P : 0.8 cm x 125 cm^2 = 100 cm^3
1.6 cm x 125 cm^2 =200 cm^3
8": Seas L21 : 1.2 x 220 = 264 cm^3
2.2 x 220 = 484 cm^3
L
Vifa:
P17WJ-00-08 : 0.8 cm (voice coil height - air gap = max. linear throw) x 136 cm^2 = 108 cm^3
1.4 cm x 136 cm^2 = 190.4 cm^3
Vifa seems to have more effective output volume of the 17 cm woofers, but still significantly less than two L15's (that's 150 cm^3 linear and 300 cm^3 max.) a'la Froy (btw, you can use the same xover, at least resonance freq. is at 10k region with both of them, and zobel doesn't have huge impact anyway).
I think you would like metal cone woofers if you listen to metal music
. Seriously, I have two set of speakers with Seas metal cones and also listen to metal music (not so much heavy metal though), they sound so much better. You just have to tune the box a little bit lower (below 40 Hz anyway) and implement the baffle step correction (not present on Froy as such). You can also build an active baffle step correction circuit and put it before your amp (http://sound.westhost.com/index.html site have such a circuit which is also tunable) and use Froy MkIII xover as such.Audax may be a good and cheap tweeter, actually I'm just putting together HDS164 & TM025F1 speaker (just for PC speakers). HDS164 needs two baffle step sections in it's xover (I may though build active system after all).
I've been thinking a bit, and I actually think it might be a better option for me to get cheaper drivers so that I have more money left to spend on high quality components for the amp I am intending building. Would the Monacor SPH 135/AD be a good substitute for one of the Seas units? You can check out the specs at http://www.monacor.com/produkte/Produkte/Details.cfm?aID=3295&UG=270064309 Also, does having grilles on the speakers affect the sound much? Can you tune the speakers to sound better with the grilles on? And if I do decide to use the Monacor, what would be a good tweeter to use with it? If I used the Audax which daatkins reccomended the total cost of the drive units would be less than £100.
The driver looks okay, with reasonably flat frequency response. My concern is the limited Xmax (how far the cone can move linearly forwards and backwards). It's only +/- 1.75mm which will limit bass response before distortion appears. I'd look for at least 3mm for a bass/mid driver.
Nice one,
David.
Nice one,
David.
Yes, don't get Monacors. Instead try Peerless HDS-164, but the version without the phaseplug. 850439 is the easier to use HDS element with 143 cm^2 effective Sd and 11/17 mm xmax.
So the effective piston volumes for 850439 are 157,3 linear and 243,1 max. That means they can move a little bit more than the Vifa. They are about £45 at
Wilmslow Audio .
However, it seems that you need much more bass, so a unit like 8" Peerless CSX would be a better choice. Cross is as low as possible (1500 Hz with the Millenium tweeter is possible with 3rd order Xover). The CSX unit is £42.55 at Wilmslow, this is what they tell about the element:
"850136 CSX polymer cone Bass(Reference #peer12)
90dB ~ 8 ohm ~ 217mm o/dia ~ 94mm deep ~ 33mm vc ~ 150w power ~ 27Hz Fs ~ 20-5000Hz range
Price: £42.55 (Excluding: VAT at 17.5%)
"
So the effective piston volumes for 850439 are 157,3 linear and 243,1 max. That means they can move a little bit more than the Vifa. They are about £45 at
Wilmslow Audio .
However, it seems that you need much more bass, so a unit like 8" Peerless CSX would be a better choice. Cross is as low as possible (1500 Hz with the Millenium tweeter is possible with 3rd order Xover). The CSX unit is £42.55 at Wilmslow, this is what they tell about the element:
"850136 CSX polymer cone Bass(Reference #peer12)
90dB ~ 8 ohm ~ 217mm o/dia ~ 94mm deep ~ 33mm vc ~ 150w power ~ 27Hz Fs ~ 20-5000Hz range
Price: £42.55 (Excluding: VAT at 17.5%)
"
Well, the Vifa XT25 can be crossed low, but a special crossover is needed (see www.htguide.com forums, an Jon Marsh's posts, he's used the elliptic xover with Vifa XT).
The lowest Fs Seas tweeter are 27TDC (fabric), 27TBFC/G (aluminium) @550 Hz and 27TDFC (fabric), which might be the best choice.
The lowest Fs Seas tweeter are 27TDC (fabric), 27TBFC/G (aluminium) @550 Hz and 27TDFC (fabric), which might be the best choice.
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