Hi all,
I've built and been progressing steadily my first ever open baffle speakers, which are 3-way using a cheap 1" tweeter, 4" Audax aerogel mid and 4 x 7" cheap woofers. After much tweaking I now have great sound. I'm not very keen on the Audax mid though, which sounds thin whatever I do in the crossover.
Winding thread, which is me learning about the concept and building and tweaking them:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128015&pagenumber=1
Content with OB as a concept I would now like to progress with more impressive drivers. I have in mind another 3-way, this time using a more wide-band mid driver and larger woofers. To begin with it will be all passive and use Graham Maynard's T-bass circuit for ~6dB gain at woofer resonance. My amps are good for 180w/4ohms. My "dream" is to build class A amps for the midrange/top and relegate my Marantz monoblocks to bass duties. In would come an active crossover and I would consider mild bass-only EQ.
For the mid I'm considering something like a Goodmans Audiom 201 (12"), which I've heard in a large box and was stunned by the dynamics and naturalness. Alternatively, and a very different beast, a CSS FR125 (modern 4.5" full ranger). With the latter I wouldn't need a tweeter. I am not against 1st or 2nd crossover slopes. I have a basic measurement mic setup now.
Due to room constraints the baffle width forces me to use 12" drivers. 2 x 8ohm PA woofers would do this I believe. That's not so hard to choose - I'll look for something with medium-high Qts and low Fs.
Would anyone like to share their views on the CSS or Goodmans vintage drivers? I'd love to hear from someone who's heard both or similar drivers in an OB speaker. I will be hearing the CSS this Sunday, so that may clinch it or otherwise.
Thanks,
Simon
I've built and been progressing steadily my first ever open baffle speakers, which are 3-way using a cheap 1" tweeter, 4" Audax aerogel mid and 4 x 7" cheap woofers. After much tweaking I now have great sound. I'm not very keen on the Audax mid though, which sounds thin whatever I do in the crossover.
Winding thread, which is me learning about the concept and building and tweaking them:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128015&pagenumber=1
Content with OB as a concept I would now like to progress with more impressive drivers. I have in mind another 3-way, this time using a more wide-band mid driver and larger woofers. To begin with it will be all passive and use Graham Maynard's T-bass circuit for ~6dB gain at woofer resonance. My amps are good for 180w/4ohms. My "dream" is to build class A amps for the midrange/top and relegate my Marantz monoblocks to bass duties. In would come an active crossover and I would consider mild bass-only EQ.
For the mid I'm considering something like a Goodmans Audiom 201 (12"), which I've heard in a large box and was stunned by the dynamics and naturalness. Alternatively, and a very different beast, a CSS FR125 (modern 4.5" full ranger). With the latter I wouldn't need a tweeter. I am not against 1st or 2nd crossover slopes. I have a basic measurement mic setup now.
Due to room constraints the baffle width forces me to use 12" drivers. 2 x 8ohm PA woofers would do this I believe. That's not so hard to choose - I'll look for something with medium-high Qts and low Fs.
Would anyone like to share their views on the CSS or Goodmans vintage drivers? I'd love to hear from someone who's heard both or similar drivers in an OB speaker. I will be hearing the CSS this Sunday, so that may clinch it or otherwise.
Thanks,
Simon
Alternatives to CSS FR125
in this country people rave about the Tangband W3 1320 (underhung voice coil and copper sleeve) and W5 1611 as the more "complete" FR drivers in the price range of the CSS. May be you want to look into them
Here is a look inside the W3 1320.
Simon,SimontY said:
in this country people rave about the Tangband W3 1320 (underhung voice coil and copper sleeve) and W5 1611 as the more "complete" FR drivers in the price range of the CSS. May be you want to look into them
Here is a look inside the W3 1320.
Re: Re: Which drivers for my next open baffles?
I've tried a 1st order with RC/zobel. I've not tried a notch filter as there's nothing to notch. The problem might be with stored energy/resonance in the upper midrange (looks like it on a waterfall plot).
The best solution was to let the woofers overlap a lot, just running them 1st order with a huge inductor in series. This is really musical. I will probably try to sell those speakers as I don't need two sets.
Simon
tinitus said:
I've tried a 1st order with RC/zobel. I've not tried a notch filter as there's nothing to notch. The problem might be with stored energy/resonance in the upper midrange (looks like it on a waterfall plot).
The best solution was to let the woofers overlap a lot, just running them 1st order with a huge inductor in series. This is really musical. I will probably try to sell those speakers as I don't need two sets.
Simon
Re: Alternatives to CSS FR125
That driver looks wonderful Rudolf. It doesn't appear to be available in the UK though, which puts me off a lot. Do you think these smaller, modern drivers can compete with something large with a big magnet, such as a Goodmans Audiom 201, 301, 61 etc.?
Simon
Rudolf said:
That driver looks wonderful Rudolf. It doesn't appear to be available in the UK though, which puts me off a lot. Do you think these smaller, modern drivers can compete with something large with a big magnet, such as a Goodmans Audiom 201, 301, 61 etc.?
Simon
Simon,
www.spectrumaudio.de is the most comprehensive source of FR drivers in Germany. They do business with the UK too. Just send them a mail.
I mentioned the Tangbands only in comparison to the CSS.
The bigger Goodmans drivers are another league. I never heard any Audiom, so can´t really comment. Of course they had been constructed with more OB in mind than most modern FR drivers. But perhaps you will need a tweeter for their top end.
www.spectrumaudio.de is the most comprehensive source of FR drivers in Germany. They do business with the UK too. Just send them a mail.
I mentioned the Tangbands only in comparison to the CSS.
The bigger Goodmans drivers are another league. I never heard any Audiom, so can´t really comment. Of course they had been constructed with more OB in mind than most modern FR drivers. But perhaps you will need a tweeter for their top end.
Thanks Rudolf,
That site's CHOCK-FULL of exciting drivers!
You seen this?
http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/tangband/tangbandW51611SA.html
Simon
That site's CHOCK-FULL of exciting drivers!
You seen this?
http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/tangband/tangbandW51611SA.html
Simon
Hello Graham,
I hoped you might see this thread and post! Any further opinion on the Tang Bands or CSS FR drivers? I will hear a friend's early efforts of a CSS running in an OB with 2 x 12" Celestions below it on Sunday. Perhaps I will then "know" if this type of driver suits my ears & musical tastes.
Thanks,
Simon
I hoped you might see this thread and post! Any further opinion on the Tang Bands or CSS FR drivers? I will hear a friend's early efforts of a CSS running in an OB with 2 x 12" Celestions below it on Sunday. Perhaps I will then "know" if this type of driver suits my ears & musical tastes.
Thanks,
Simon
. It will become directional earlier than that driver. The W5 1611 would be advisable if you need to cross below 200 Hz since Sd is almost doubled.
Simon - sounds like fun. I'm about to finish my coffee and go build a new set of OBees myself!
I've been hearing a lot of OBees lately; Linkwitz Orion, Emerald Physics, Hawthornes, Bastanis, P.Audio, Eminance, Lowther, etc.
The best mdirange OB drivers I've heard were both Eminence Beta. Big surprise!
The Beta 12LTA (with dome tweeter) and the Beta 8 (X2 with planar tweeter). These are not high tech, expensive drivers - but damn! do they sound good. Very refined, very detailed, musical and real.
The Beta 8 seems easier to use, but both sound very good in the midrange. If I were doing a 3 way system, those are the drivers I'd pick.
I've been hearing a lot of OBees lately; Linkwitz Orion, Emerald Physics, Hawthornes, Bastanis, P.Audio, Eminance, Lowther, etc.
The best mdirange OB drivers I've heard were both Eminence Beta. Big surprise!
The Beta 12LTA (with dome tweeter) and the Beta 8 (X2 with planar tweeter). These are not high tech, expensive drivers - but damn! do they sound good. Very refined, very detailed, musical and real.
The Beta 8 seems easier to use, but both sound very good in the midrange. If I were doing a 3 way system, those are the drivers I'd pick.
Hi Simon, hi guys,
in my opinion the FR 125 s can compete with
an underhung design due to nonlinear distortion.
Thereby allowing very large excusion for a driver
of that small size ...
The "xbl ^2" motor design works very well.
Of cause the driver behaves different than usual
overhung designs, when pushed to the limits.
Distortion sets in rather hard, when the limit of
constant force upon the voice coil is reached.
Up to that point it sounds very clean.
Excursion of TB W5 1611 is less. So it will depend on
the crossover frequency and slope, whether the linear
excursion will be sufficient.
For lower XO frequency/lower order XO, i would
choose the CSS driver again. I never felt sorry about
having designed my "dipol 08" around these drivers.
For that appplication it was simply the right choice,
if not the only possible one ...
(80 Hz XO /1. Order using a PLLXO design.)
Its performance through midrange is superb. But as i
mentioned in some posts before, i have heard serial
tolerances between individual drivers. This is a topic
affecting all fullrangers i fear ...
Hopefully the new series is getting better, i do not know ...
The best ones sound very definite from upper midrange
up to the highs too, thereby circumventing coloration
in the nasal region ( which are heard with sooo many drivers !).
Depending on your concept, you will need some corrective
trickery to get sufficient brillance out of it ...
brilliance region of the driver is sufficiently clean
but simply "not enough" especially off axis.
Maybe think about a backward firing tweeter to complement
for the missing brilliance in the reveberant sound radiated
from the back of your OB into your room ...
A front firing tweeter would (IMO) spoil the homogeneity of that
driver, which is very good (IMO).
IMO = TME "To my ears" ;-)
Kind regards
in my opinion the FR 125 s can compete with
an underhung design due to nonlinear distortion.
Thereby allowing very large excusion for a driver
of that small size ...
The "xbl ^2" motor design works very well.
Of cause the driver behaves different than usual
overhung designs, when pushed to the limits.
Distortion sets in rather hard, when the limit of
constant force upon the voice coil is reached.
Up to that point it sounds very clean.
Excursion of TB W5 1611 is less. So it will depend on
the crossover frequency and slope, whether the linear
excursion will be sufficient.
For lower XO frequency/lower order XO, i would
choose the CSS driver again. I never felt sorry about
having designed my "dipol 08" around these drivers.
For that appplication it was simply the right choice,
if not the only possible one ...
(80 Hz XO /1. Order using a PLLXO design.)
Its performance through midrange is superb. But as i
mentioned in some posts before, i have heard serial
tolerances between individual drivers. This is a topic
affecting all fullrangers i fear ...
Hopefully the new series is getting better, i do not know ...
The best ones sound very definite from upper midrange
up to the highs too, thereby circumventing coloration
in the nasal region ( which are heard with sooo many drivers !).
Depending on your concept, you will need some corrective
trickery to get sufficient brillance out of it ...
brilliance region of the driver is sufficiently clean
but simply "not enough" especially off axis.
Maybe think about a backward firing tweeter to complement
for the missing brilliance in the reveberant sound radiated
from the back of your OB into your room ...
A front firing tweeter would (IMO) spoil the homogeneity of that
driver, which is very good (IMO).
IMO = TME "To my ears" ;-)
Kind regards
If your going to do that (FR+woofer) you should certainly check out the Lampizator Site.
And also this pageon the same site:
http://www.lampizator.eu/SPEAKERS/PROJECTS/P17/Endorphine from Kingston Kitchen.html
And also this pageon the same site:
http://www.lampizator.eu/SPEAKERS/PROJECTS/P17/Endorphine from Kingston Kitchen.html
Hey, this is excellent Simon. You're treading the path I was considering, even down to using the CSS driver. This latter choice is partly because there is an excellent supplier of these in Aus (Darcher Audio). I've been influenced by speakers like the Visaton NoBox and a load more similar.
Unfortunately I can't offer much support along the way as I'm just learning about these OB things. It's been a fascinating read over the last few weeks so I'll be watching your current progress with interest. I'm just sponging up the knowledge at present.
I was even considering some Hawthorne Silver Irises (Augies) but I may have to go with a sealed box for bass, due to size, so these'll be too big. (I have a wife who just doesn't understand this hobby!).
Top stuff!
Stuey
Unfortunately I can't offer much support along the way as I'm just learning about these OB things. It's been a fascinating read over the last few weeks so I'll be watching your current progress with interest. I'm just sponging up the knowledge at present.
I was even considering some Hawthorne Silver Irises (Augies) but I may have to go with a sealed box for bass, due to size, so these'll be too big. (I have a wife who just doesn't understand this hobby!).
Top stuff!
Stuey
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