anyone built this? How is the sound? Would like any advice or input. I am planning on this since I bought the speakers.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-pioneer.asp
Specific questions.
1. all 4 piezo's needed?
2. what caps/resistors are needed or recommended.
thanks,
gychang
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-pioneer.asp
Specific questions.
1. all 4 piezo's needed?
2. what caps/resistors are needed or recommended.
thanks,
gychang
Think Zilla was recommending .47uF caps over 8ohm resistors . . . you should really just need the 1 resistor per side.
Personally I don't think you'd need 4. Those orange squeezer models are rated at 94dB, and I have a hard time believing you'd need more than that to mate with the horn gain of the main unit. 2 would give 97dB, if needed, at which point I would want to put one front, one back to get a bit of dipole action at the top (take a look at Linkwitz's site; his new stuff is talking about putting a second tweeter on the back of his Orions).
Been working with my B20s in small OBs, nearfield, hinge mounted on my computer desk, I'm finding that I'm liking them true full range, no tweeters, though I don't like boosting anything on them via EQ (either introduces distortion of varying degrees or quickly runs through my available amplification; got an older one of those JVC Hybrid Feedback shelf systems rated for 30w/c into 4ohms, so if I'm lucky, I'm getting 20w/c into the B20s, though I doubt it). Been experimenting lately with cutting the middle out of the response with a series of parametric filters in my EQ. Its kinda like a BSC circuit except I've only got it running from maybe 125 through 6600 (its not flat, either, with a big null centered on 2200Hz which to my ears is the only audible problem area for the B20s, and only really 5-6dB).
Without actually touching the bass or treble signals, clarity, detail and air have been excellent. I know you had originally really liked your El Cheapo Pios in BiB, and the B20s are rated a bit higher on the top end than those, so you may not really be looking for much more up top. I've been thinking about those $5 Dayton domes, especially the smallest (5/8", I think) since it seems to rate the same sensitivity as the B20. Heck, it might even be small enough to be mounted coax on the B20.
Kensai
Personally I don't think you'd need 4. Those orange squeezer models are rated at 94dB, and I have a hard time believing you'd need more than that to mate with the horn gain of the main unit. 2 would give 97dB, if needed, at which point I would want to put one front, one back to get a bit of dipole action at the top (take a look at Linkwitz's site; his new stuff is talking about putting a second tweeter on the back of his Orions).
Been working with my B20s in small OBs, nearfield, hinge mounted on my computer desk, I'm finding that I'm liking them true full range, no tweeters, though I don't like boosting anything on them via EQ (either introduces distortion of varying degrees or quickly runs through my available amplification; got an older one of those JVC Hybrid Feedback shelf systems rated for 30w/c into 4ohms, so if I'm lucky, I'm getting 20w/c into the B20s, though I doubt it). Been experimenting lately with cutting the middle out of the response with a series of parametric filters in my EQ. Its kinda like a BSC circuit except I've only got it running from maybe 125 through 6600 (its not flat, either, with a big null centered on 2200Hz which to my ears is the only audible problem area for the B20s, and only really 5-6dB).
Without actually touching the bass or treble signals, clarity, detail and air have been excellent. I know you had originally really liked your El Cheapo Pios in BiB, and the B20s are rated a bit higher on the top end than those, so you may not really be looking for much more up top. I've been thinking about those $5 Dayton domes, especially the smallest (5/8", I think) since it seems to rate the same sensitivity as the B20. Heck, it might even be small enough to be mounted coax on the B20.
Kensai
For the purpose I've actually been looking at that 3"x7" Goldwood piezo. Its rated for 90dB and has greater top end extension (if specs are to be believed). You would also be able to control the dispersion to taste depending on how you orient the horn. Besides, the long rectangular horn is cooler looking than the square (though, maybe who cares since you want to put it on the back ;-p)
Looking forward to see you make sawdust on this one.
Kensai
Looking forward to see you make sawdust on this one.
Kensai
Kensai said:
is this the one? http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-025
1. Will this work rear mounted with the Pioneer?
2. Will I need a simple crossover? (?partnumber at PE)
gychang
b20
yeah, it is a nice driver. I was finding that a .68 in series with the piezo and a 10 ohm wirewound resistor ACROSS the terminals gave the best treeble the piezo was capable of to my ears and time to play with it. better could be had potentialy though.
also, perhaps a decent 4 dollar dome, etc would be a good choice too? there is one that parts express offers.
well, later dudes.
Clark
yeah, it is a nice driver. I was finding that a .68 in series with the piezo and a 10 ohm wirewound resistor ACROSS the terminals gave the best treeble the piezo was capable of to my ears and time to play with it. better could be had potentialy though.
also, perhaps a decent 4 dollar dome, etc would be a good choice too? there is one that parts express offers.
well, later dudes.
Clark
gychang,
Looking back on Zilla's work, I'm seeing that the 8ohm, .47uF circuit is for forward firing piezo, but for rear firing he was running it at 20ohm, 1uF.
So, yeah, that's the Dayton dome I meant. Looks like that's 6ohms, so you'd just need something like 3.3uF cap on it for rear firing, and given that Zilla has damarred his piezo and has it presenting as 20ohms in addtion to Lpadding it down to some degree, so the same crossover point and 90dB should be fairly similar.
I think it should work pretty well, especially given the apparent dispersion characteristics of these tiny tweeters. I've not used them myself, though, but then again, I've not used the piezos myself either. You're already pretty much the guinea pig for B20 BiB since none of the rest of us has managed it yet, so why not go all out
If they work out well for you, I guarantee that a few of the rest of us will be using them, too. If nothing else, these should be easier to mount and you won't need to mod them like the piezos.
Kensai
Looking back on Zilla's work, I'm seeing that the 8ohm, .47uF circuit is for forward firing piezo, but for rear firing he was running it at 20ohm, 1uF.
So, yeah, that's the Dayton dome I meant. Looks like that's 6ohms, so you'd just need something like 3.3uF cap on it for rear firing, and given that Zilla has damarred his piezo and has it presenting as 20ohms in addtion to Lpadding it down to some degree, so the same crossover point and 90dB should be fairly similar.
I think it should work pretty well, especially given the apparent dispersion characteristics of these tiny tweeters. I've not used them myself, though, but then again, I've not used the piezos myself either. You're already pretty much the guinea pig for B20 BiB since none of the rest of us has managed it yet, so why not go all out
If they work out well for you, I guarantee that a few of the rest of us will be using them, too. If nothing else, these should be easier to mount and you won't need to mod them like the piezos.Kensai
piezo
the value I spouted off there was for front fire use, sans dammar. I tried zilla's values as well, and I liked the tweeter for front fire use at the .68 value. it is a little spitty in general as a tweeter, but it evened out well over a little time and is nicely dynamic.
I thought as well of the goldwood 3`7 and if I do this project again, I will most likely use it. but I have not heard it.
i am not sure whether or not it was available during the time zilla did his project.
the value I spouted off there was for front fire use, sans dammar. I tried zilla's values as well, and I liked the tweeter for front fire use at the .68 value. it is a little spitty in general as a tweeter, but it evened out well over a little time and is nicely dynamic.
I thought as well of the goldwood 3`7 and if I do this project again, I will most likely use it. but I have not heard it.
i am not sure whether or not it was available during the time zilla did his project.
Nelson ran some comparisons on his FR driver & current source article & reckons the Pioneer is the better driver (re the main units), and personally, I'd take his word for it any time. If you haven't read his article / paper, I suggest you do: it's a very interesting read on lots of levels, and even if you're not contemplating a shift to current-source amplification it's got measurements & views on a variety of popular FR units.
Yeah, I reckon a single rearward firing unit like Zilla used for his 1.3ft^3 sealed box should be fine. The BIB will kick gain up in the LF of course (to put it mildly), but you'd expect that from a pipe horn, and the tweeter should match it well enough unless room-gain pushes things too far up, in which case you could either damp it down (probably the best option) or add a second tweeter.
Yeah, I reckon a single rearward firing unit like Zilla used for his 1.3ft^3 sealed box should be fine. The BIB will kick gain up in the LF of course (to put it mildly), but you'd expect that from a pipe horn, and the tweeter should match it well enough unless room-gain pushes things too far up, in which case you could either damp it down (probably the best option) or add a second tweeter.
Scott, we're not talking about the Goldwood 8" FR, we're talking about their 3"x7" horn peizo as an alternative to the square "orange squeezer" style one that Zilla and others have used previously. Its speced better top and bottom, has lower sensitivity that looks to match the B20 and should allow for some directivity control due to the acute proportions of the horn (another source of experimentation)
We've all seen Mr. Pass' current source paper, and that is all the authority we've needed to never look at the Goldwood 8" FR again ;-p
blumenco,
So you liked your piezo a bit hotter than Zilla suggests. Do you think the damar might tamed the hiss/spit you were getting from it early on?
Kensai
We've all seen Mr. Pass' current source paper, and that is all the authority we've needed to never look at the Goldwood 8" FR again ;-p
blumenco,
So you liked your piezo a bit hotter than Zilla suggests. Do you think the damar might tamed the hiss/spit you were getting from it early on?
Kensai
gychang,
You got my hopes all up to see a B20 BiB just materialize. You are the guy that just seems to conjure up new speaker enclosures on a whim, and I was thinking, "Good, now there will be a pair and then we'll all know if they're as good as we'd been hoping."
So, got that bigger house lined up yet? ;-p
Kensai
You got my hopes all up to see a B20 BiB just materialize. You are the guy that just seems to conjure up new speaker enclosures on a whim, and I was thinking, "Good, now there will be a pair and then we'll all know if they're as good as we'd been hoping."
So, got that bigger house lined up yet? ;-p
Kensai
Kensai said:
You guys know the science behind these things, I tinker on weekends, I don't know the difference between a resistor and a imposter. there are 2 BIBs and a metronome, and in our small house, actually my wife is looking around the larger home, she doesn't know I have other plans when we move...
As they say I will build them, and listen to them (so far all my speakers sound good. Am thinking this is all in my head, but doesn't matter since I like it.
gychang
Therein lies the point. If you like them, then you've achieved the principle objective.
You're going to build a pair of B20 BIBs? Nice. Oh yes. To be honest, I can do a better box than the one on the Zilla site, if you can live with the driver being up a bit higher? The driver can take a longer line you see -plenty of excursion and a decently low Fs.
Like this: line 170in, Zdriver 35in, Sl=220in^2
Bit of a monster, and the driver will end up 50in from the floor like it does with the other longer BIBs. I didn't do a full length or sized one before because it's a cheap driver & I figured people might want to keep it small. Daft logic I suppose. This one should squeeze as much as it's possible to get out of the Pioneer. Though the existing one on the zilla site shouldn't exactly be slouches.
You're going to build a pair of B20 BIBs? Nice. Oh yes. To be honest, I can do a better box than the one on the Zilla site, if you can live with the driver being up a bit higher? The driver can take a longer line you see -plenty of excursion and a decently low Fs.
Like this: line 170in, Zdriver 35in, Sl=220in^2
Bit of a monster, and the driver will end up 50in from the floor like it does with the other longer BIBs. I didn't do a full length or sized one before because it's a cheap driver & I figured people might want to keep it small. Daft logic I suppose. This one should squeeze as much as it's possible to get out of the Pioneer. Though the existing one
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Scottmoose said:
thanks Scottmoose, I like to build them big and get as much as possible out of these speakers, will put them where I have high ceilings. I will plan on height of 85" and Z: 35", but can u recommend the C:, width (A+B) and depth? (I was good at math at one time...).
I have attached the figure.
gychang
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