Group Buy rules discussion

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I don't understand the difficulty. If I recall correctly there are multiple examples of allowing "group buys" to occur against the wishes of those who first introduced an idea to the forum. There are several examples of DIYAudio authorising such controversial "group buys" initiated by the very person who now finds his latest "group buy" halted and the subject of this discussion.

Are we seeing a policy reversal? Preliminary actions seem to indicate so.

I have NOTHING against group buys or any persons involved in this particular discussion and I don't believe that ideas shared here are protected as IP (a little courtesy would be nice though), but as I said nearly two years ago there needs to be much more restrictive rules around what qualifies to be called a group buy.

For one thing it is RIDICULOUS that any group buy be allowed that is run from an eCommerce site or any external web site. All of the organisation, ordering and support can and should be done here in the group buy forum. If someone can set up a web site they can set up their own product support forums on that site or they can pay for a thread in Vendor's Bizarre here. That something is not run at a monetary profit does not matter, a profit is still made in name recognition that could later have trade value. If a sanctioned group buy must have a name on it, it should be DIYAudio.com and ONLY DIYAudio.com.

Also, a group buy is a ONE OFF. Anyone carrying or replenishing stock is not running a group buy even if they are not making a profit. If additional runs of the same group buy are desired, by rule a different person should have to organise it each time - the Gerber files and all other docs from the previous buys must be posted to the forum, so anyone should be able to run it. There should be an ample supply of volunteers from the group buy itself. That's the definition of a group buy.

I have some other ideas for rules, but I doubt anyone is interested in hearing them.
 
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Joined 2002
I think that diyAudio is getting dark and ugly, protecting commercial copiers and allowing safe sales of them inside diyAudio. As long as this continues, diyAudio is a coal of bottom quality.

In my impression, moderators moderate diyAudio into this direction, at the same time forcing members into a big confusion about fairness.

Am I misunderstanding you . . . ???
 
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Joined 2002
SY

I understand that the question was not about the group buy.

The question was about the rulers.
Some measure it as 10cm, 7Cm or 3Cm . . . from the same ruler.
Small deviation could be acceptable because nobody is perfect.
But, if too big standard deviation . . . too big to trust persons reading the same ruler.

If you try to change the subject, means no intention to face the subject . . .

Regards
 
If you have forgotten my personal guidelines for groubuys, take a look here.
The key is openness I think. A groupbuy should also be limited in time and this has not always been the case.

I think you should remember that those who are shouting the highest would never pull a groupbuy through. The groupbuy organizers are good people with a certain drive and the great mass just collect and 100% of the collectors are satisfied. www.diyaudio.com is unique when it comes to groupbuys.

What do you think of my guidelines?
 
SY said:
I'm quite interested in suggestions about how Group Buys should be regulated without making it too difficult and inconvenient to actually put one together..

My suggestions make it just as easy to put one together as the status quo - the key word being ONE.

No comments on my suggestions from anyone? SY?

I guess no one cares.
 
Nota bene that I am just speaking here as a member, not a moderator. I think the "one" limit is not a good idea. There are some people who are better organizers than others (I'm particularly terrible) and some who enjoy doing this sort of thing more than others (I loathe doing that stuff). If someone does this well and wants to do it again, why in the world would I want to stop him?
 
SY said:
I think the "one" limit is not a good idea.

If someone does this well and wants to do it again, why in the world would I want to stop him?

OK, maybe the one limit is unnecessary if some of the other rules are adopted - though I still contend that once an individual has participated in one group buy, he has his items for personal use so why would he need to run another one? The definition of a group buy logically includes the organizer as part of the group.

Let's discuss these more important points:

If someone is carrying or replenishing stock, how is it a group buy?

If someone is using a trading name (other than DIYAudio.com), how is it a group buy?

If someone sets up an eCommerce site, how is it a group buy?

I think it discourages the discussion of ideas (for some) that their idea is likely to be packaged up and sold against their wishes by other members all with the blessing of the moderation team here. I agree that ideas posted here are generally not protected, but does that have to mean that they automatically get commercialized?

I think that it only makes sense that all DIYAudio.com group buys have all communication and advertising confined to this web site (and private e-mail, of course - but no list-servs!) and that the only name used in association with the group buy is that of DIYAudio.com.
 
A distinction should be made between group buy and a sale to a group. The easiest way to make money here is to find a popular item, set the price with 50% markup, announce it as a group buy offer and ask people to put their names in a WIKI.

Anything, that has profit margin in the offer, qualifies as commercial venture and those "wares should be hawked" from a proper place, which is Vendors Bazaar.

It seems like dyiAudio lost it's roots, as one cannot look through the threads without being subject to constatnt advertising of boards, kits and what else.
 
and that the only name used in association with the group buy is that of DIYAudio.com.

Same disclaimer as my last post. Same disagreement.

Group Buys are voluntary collaborations between consenting individuals for their own benefit. They are in no sense "sponsored" by this forum nor any of the other forums I use that have similar activity. If it works better for everyone involved to have a larger group formed (for example, two groups of 50 getting a better price for a quantity of 100), why stop that? Why make it site-specific?

Perfect example, taken from real life. I need some transformers, two to be exact. I get a very nice price break above 12 units. If I'm likely to get 6 interested people here and 6 interested people at (for example) AA, why shouldn't I do it? We all save.

Note that this example, though real, is theoretical; I'm too damn lazy to run two group buys to save myself $30 or so.
 
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Joined 2002
Peter Daniel said:

It seems like dyiAudio lost it's roots, as one cannot look through the threads without being subject to constatnt advertising of boards, kits and what else.


Agree. I do not know exactly who initiated it.

By the way, I have seen you also as a good leader of GB . . .
The GB activities are playing together on profit and non-profit ground, IMHO. Where are you standing on? Non-profit ground? The problem is how many will believe in your purism.

Good contribution to the threads should not mean any GB license.

Regards
 
I know who initiated the trend of group buys for profit, but even as a mod, I was always telling my collegues that it was not qualifying as a group buy, J-P can certainly confirm it (if still remember).

I was probably running the first successful, not for profit, group buy: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8542&highlight=rtheta and this is a perfect example of what group buy supposed to be.

Besides, I always make it clear that I don't want to be associated with current trend in group buys: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=895445#post895445

Where am I standing on? I always set at least 50% markup on any board I personally offer for sale, and I simply refuse to call it a group buy. The markup covers my time investment, otherwise I wouldn't be doing that. That is one reason I didn't use WIKI, I didn't collect money before product was fabricated and I used very little advertising, selling through e-mail contacts only.

Beside A30 board I was not participating in any commercial offer outside Vendors Bazzar, since VB have been created. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Normally, I would be donating some of those money to a Forum, but seeing that people who run it presently don't care much, why should I?

The best example is placement of important forum discussion in an OffTopic section, where nobody can really see it. I thought that Moderating thread was moved long time ago into Trash Bin, and if it wasn't for a link in another thread, I wouldn't be aware of the current discussion.
 
Minimal profit has always been allowed in Group Buys here at diyAudio.com ....... The operative word being minimal.......

Beer and pizza money is and has always been the accepted allowable profit from Group Buys. More than that or if members are continually posting in only Trading Post or Group Buys then we investigate their behaviours.

I'm not by any means trying to quash discussion..... Just providing a small window into the inner workings of the policies as they currently stand.
 
OK, here some numbers.

A30 board got very little advertising and was not sold under group buy pretense. Up to day, I sold approx 200pc and made on average $10 per board.

This is more than beer money, and I invested it wisely buying Mark Levinson CD Transport.

Some may consider it as investing in a forum as well, as having better equipment, I can share better experiences, the BiDAT threat being a current example. ;)

Had I used all the leverage the group buy can offer, and had the boards made cheaper, my profits would had certainly double or triple.
 
What I'm trying to show here, is the way to make money for forum owners.

All the boards sales (outside Vendor Bazzar) and especially the boards that are copies of popular designs, should be controlled, with fixed price and run under true group buy. That means, that a specific profit margin is deposited to the forum only, not to the pockets of those who "run" the group buys. Those who volunteer to run a group buy, receive free boards as a reward. Some people would like to donate to the forum, yet they may not have enough spare money, that would be a nice way to donate: runing personal profit free group buy.

All boards should be always ordered from a same board house, so we can establish good business realation with possible further discounts for large volume, and what's most important, we know the actual prices.

A profit margin for forum owners should not bother anybody, as forum gives them opportunity to save on boards anyway. There is capital to invest anyway, as all collection is done befor boards are ordered. $10 per board (actual price $15-20/board) could be pretty profitable operation for the forum, probably much better than current donation program.
 
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