Maybe you all know, but the small piezo transducer disks (sometimes found in the strangest places, for making "beep" occasionally) can make up quit good contact microphones. Ok, it is not hifi stuff, but here is the instruments page...
The output level is sufficient and luckily quite noise-free, and with a little eq-ing at your mixing desk you are done.
The cables are soldered to the backside of the discs (symmetric or non symmetric) and this side is sealed with hotglue or silicon. I use discs with about 3 cm diameter.
I usually fix this little things with Gaffa tape for a non-vibrating contact (one strip for the "transducer" and one for the cable to secure it).
I used them now in many occasions (working with children in musical composition and improvisation workshops) for making things "sound" or just amplifying sounds.
This "transducers" can provide very good input for further processing or as a trigger for other sound events.
This is a VERY cheap "instrument". Just try it.
good luck - and happy sounding
Klaus
The output level is sufficient and luckily quite noise-free, and with a little eq-ing at your mixing desk you are done.
The cables are soldered to the backside of the discs (symmetric or non symmetric) and this side is sealed with hotglue or silicon. I use discs with about 3 cm diameter.
I usually fix this little things with Gaffa tape for a non-vibrating contact (one strip for the "transducer" and one for the cable to secure it).
I used them now in many occasions (working with children in musical composition and improvisation workshops) for making things "sound" or just amplifying sounds.
This "transducers" can provide very good input for further processing or as a trigger for other sound events.
This is a VERY cheap "instrument". Just try it.
good luck - and happy sounding
Klaus
Take care if you do so. Piezo buzzers can output a high voltage if hit hard and if the input is not sufficiently protected may damage it. If not sure put 2 back to back zeners of 5.6V over it.
Such a transducer works better with a high impedance input. A I-V convertor would be best and give the flattest response.
Such a transducer works better with a high impedance input. A I-V convertor would be best and give the flattest response.
Yeah,
Piezos are a nice thing to play around, and fit perfectly in situations as described by lohk, especially regarding the cheap price.
I know some other material that transforms vibration or pressure into a usable signal. THe company that manufactures it describes it as an "elecret film". They claim that their material gives a more flat freq response and a natural sound compared to piezos.
www.b-band.com
another word on piezos:
You could perhaps dremel it (here in germany they sell a multi-purpose-tool called "Dremel", don't know if it's also sold elsewhere in the world......)
Piezos are a nice thing to play around, and fit perfectly in situations as described by lohk, especially regarding the cheap price.
I know some other material that transforms vibration or pressure into a usable signal. THe company that manufactures it describes it as an "elecret film". They claim that their material gives a more flat freq response and a natural sound compared to piezos.
www.b-band.com
another word on piezos:
You could perhaps dremel it (here in germany they sell a multi-purpose-tool called "Dremel", don't know if it's also sold elsewhere in the world......)
Jakob,
you must be joking !
How can you cut a piezo disc "into smaller pieces ?
There are definite parts at the backside for connections, but cutting it into pieces means destroy it - maybe you can make it a bit smaller, but this will not work without nending it, which also means destruction.
Klaus
you must be joking !
How can you cut a piezo disc "into smaller pieces ?
There are definite parts at the backside for connections, but cutting it into pieces means destroy it - maybe you can make it a bit smaller, but this will not work without nending it, which also means destruction.
Klaus
Bass players and acoustic guitar players have been using piezo pickups for years. They are also used for drum triggers.
Checkout your local music store, they probably have them in stock. Stewart McDonald's sells piezo pickups for guitar builders.
http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/haze...tion=Electronics,_pickups&ITEM=catalog/s.html
Here's a fun website with about DIY pickups for the DoubleBass.
http://www.jazzpages.com/Doublebass/pickups_h_GB.html
Phil
Checkout your local music store, they probably have them in stock. Stewart McDonald's sells piezo pickups for guitar builders.
http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/haze...tion=Electronics,_pickups&ITEM=catalog/s.html
Here's a fun website with about DIY pickups for the DoubleBass.
http://www.jazzpages.com/Doublebass/pickups_h_GB.html
Phil
I don't want to step on anybodys toes, but for applications such as acoustic guitar pickup etc. piezos can be a pain in the ar§e!
1. They don't sound too well (uneven freq response)
2. In live situations they tend to resonate in a veeery ugly way, I've experienced that several times
But of course not everybody can afford an expensive condenser mic for better results, and there are certainly some people around that are fully content with a piezo system.
I've already posted above about a company that manufactures a material that seems to represent a real alternative to piezos.
www.b-band.com
Unfortunately, I haven't compared piezos directly to that stuff yet.
Anyway, it's at least a interesting read........
1. They don't sound too well (uneven freq response)
2. In live situations they tend to resonate in a veeery ugly way, I've experienced that several times
But of course not everybody can afford an expensive condenser mic for better results, and there are certainly some people around that are fully content with a piezo system.
I've already posted above about a company that manufactures a material that seems to represent a real alternative to piezos.
www.b-band.com
Unfortunately, I haven't compared piezos directly to that stuff yet.
Anyway, it's at least a interesting read........
Yesterday I was in a concert here in Linz/Austria where two experimental electronic musicians were playing.
It may interest you that the main sound they used as a material for their transformations was the creaking sound of the wooden floor picked up with piezo disks fixed on the ground.
So the audience made the music somehow without knowing it...
Klaus
It may interest you that the main sound they used as a material for their transformations was the creaking sound of the wooden floor picked up with piezo disks fixed on the ground.
So the audience made the music somehow without knowing it...
Klaus
I had a local guitar tech fix a piezo to one of my acoustics.
I would tend to agree that the sound is bad.
But only in isolation. When mixed with a lot of mic signal, it creates a different feel to the recording. A lot of people use it. LR baggs and fishman make pickups using this material (though the interface system is what makes this kind of pickup viable. Under the saddle they pick up vibrations better than fixed onto the body of the axe...
One accepted way to amplify a grand piano in studio, for example, is to use a few of these piezos for direct and some stategically placed mics. A bit of piezo sound changes the colour of the sound slightly. Notice not for better or worse, just different.
Just another colour on the palette of a musician. And a cheaply available one, at that. You can cut a piezo and make smaller pieces. I use a pair of scissors, but am only able to use the left over piece, with the wires still attached. Helps in cutting out self-resonance...
I would tend to agree that the sound is bad.
But only in isolation. When mixed with a lot of mic signal, it creates a different feel to the recording. A lot of people use it. LR baggs and fishman make pickups using this material (though the interface system is what makes this kind of pickup viable. Under the saddle they pick up vibrations better than fixed onto the body of the axe...
One accepted way to amplify a grand piano in studio, for example, is to use a few of these piezos for direct and some stategically placed mics. A bit of piezo sound changes the colour of the sound slightly. Notice not for better or worse, just different.
Just another colour on the palette of a musician. And a cheaply available one, at that. You can cut a piezo and make smaller pieces. I use a pair of scissors, but am only able to use the left over piece, with the wires still attached. Helps in cutting out self-resonance...
Argghhhhh... piezos in guitars...argghhhhh
For any kind of loud stage use, retro fitted peizos are useless. They pick up handling noise, feed back at the slightest excuse, and are horribly unreliable. I have lost count of the number of times, when I was a guitar tech, that I was blamed for their godawful characteristics! Musos who had beautiful sounding accoustic guitars would get them retro fitted, expecting to get the same tone at stage levels, and it just didn't work at all.
Think of cool calm water... cool calm water.... ahh...
Spleen vented, you can all come out from under the table now
For any kind of loud stage use, retro fitted peizos are useless. They pick up handling noise, feed back at the slightest excuse, and are horribly unreliable. I have lost count of the number of times, when I was a guitar tech, that I was blamed for their godawful characteristics! Musos who had beautiful sounding accoustic guitars would get them retro fitted, expecting to get the same tone at stage levels, and it just didn't work at all.
Think of cool calm water... cool calm water.... ahh...
Spleen vented, you can all come out from under the table now
Nice to hear your complaints about this and that here, pinkmouse, but that is not the point:
I was suggesting piezo discs as a cheap and working input device, something to which you can experiment with, modify, you name it. You can seal it from the backside and construct a god case or housing and fixing.
Then, if you still get feedback problems do not blame the device alone, blame yourself and blame the man behind the mixer too.
Even "good" microphones can sometimes be used as experimental devices, and as a musician I really get fed up with all the "hifi clean sound" approach - making music means creating sound not reproducing it...
What, when I do want to hear and amplify the noise of the fingers on he frets ? Beautiful sounding, pah !
Klaus
ps: And, as far as I know, the "very best sounding" pickups for violins and double basses for example are made with piezo/electret technology
I was suggesting piezo discs as a cheap and working input device, something to which you can experiment with, modify, you name it. You can seal it from the backside and construct a god case or housing and fixing.
Then, if you still get feedback problems do not blame the device alone, blame yourself and blame the man behind the mixer too.
Even "good" microphones can sometimes be used as experimental devices, and as a musician I really get fed up with all the "hifi clean sound" approach - making music means creating sound not reproducing it...
What, when I do want to hear and amplify the noise of the fingers on he frets ? Beautiful sounding, pah !
Klaus
ps: And, as far as I know, the "very best sounding" pickups for violins and double basses for example are made with piezo/electret technology
Klaus, yes I agree, some of the best pickups do use piezos, I never said that they didn't
Yes, as a musician you shouldn't limit yourself to conventional ways of expressing yourself,and if something different gives you a sound you like, then that's good.
What I am saying is that cheap or diy pickups will not give a realistic reproduction of an accoustic instrument, they have to be designed and built in, especially when used with loud foldback.
An old adage comes to mind here, garbage in, garbage out. If you expect a soundman to do a good job, he/she needs a good stable signal. Every time you have to notch out a problem frequency, you lose a part of the sound of the instrument, and if you have something that's as unstable as a cheap piezo, by the time the feedback problems are sorted, there is nothing left of the origional sound, as well as ruining the gain structure of the mix, and possibly compromising the foldback for other members of the band.
So by all means, create your own pickups, create new sounds and new music, have fun, but be aware of the limitations of the devices
Yes, as a musician you shouldn't limit yourself to conventional ways of expressing yourself,and if something different gives you a sound you like, then that's good.
What I am saying is that cheap or diy pickups will not give a realistic reproduction of an accoustic instrument, they have to be designed and built in, especially when used with loud foldback.
An old adage comes to mind here, garbage in, garbage out. If you expect a soundman to do a good job, he/she needs a good stable signal. Every time you have to notch out a problem frequency, you lose a part of the sound of the instrument, and if you have something that's as unstable as a cheap piezo, by the time the feedback problems are sorted, there is nothing left of the origional sound, as well as ruining the gain structure of the mix, and possibly compromising the foldback for other members of the band.
So by all means, create your own pickups, create new sounds and new music, have fun, but be aware of the limitations of the devices
I belong to a small Celtic band and do the live sound and recording for them. I am so dissatisfied with microphones I was looking for another options. I, like many of you, did not like the sound of piezo transducers until I ran across a company on the internet call K&K Sound.
http://www.kksound.com/index.html
They have samples of guitar recording, made by their pickups, on their web page, which sound incredible. I didn’t really believe them but spent a $100 on their Pure Western system to experiment. I was stunned at the sound! It still lacked, a little, in the low end so we added a preamp which makes our guitar sound gorgeous. I’ll know a lot more after next year playing seasons, but right now it does NOT feed back, at all! We’ve played it right in front of our sound system with no problems.
Next I tried a large transducer in the bodhran, but as Havoc said it has too hot of signal and clipped bad. I used a smaller transducer, 1 - ½” transducer from the Violinissimo pickup, and clamped it between the drum skin and tuning ring. I got a great sound. I must say we are looking for a pure acoustical sound and use nothing more than a little EQ. The band gives me the dirty looks every time I try to add an effect.
I’ve been experimenting with the violin and have not come up with a sound that the band likes, but we are getting close. To answer Pinkmouse’s complaint I’ve had the same problem on the violin but by cutting off everything below 80hz I’ve been able to remover the finger noises. I do agree they can be a pain in getting them placed right. The drum and guitar were easy but the violin has been difficult. A mover of just 1/8” on the body can change the sound. I am determined to changes the band over to pickups because in live sound, feed back has been a major problem and in recording mic bleed keeps me from picking up the individual instruments.
My question to you guys is I would like to build some small, light weight, high quality buffers to mount at the pickup. This is one I like:
http://www.till.com/articles/PreampCable/
I would like to use a better IC. I would like to use a OPA132 from BB. Do you guys know where I can find more information on bringing down the high impedance of the piezo so that I can run it down a cable without loosing anything? A tube buffer or a transformer looks like the best match but I just don’t know enough yet to make a decision.
Thank you,
steve
http://www.kksound.com/index.html
They have samples of guitar recording, made by their pickups, on their web page, which sound incredible. I didn’t really believe them but spent a $100 on their Pure Western system to experiment. I was stunned at the sound! It still lacked, a little, in the low end so we added a preamp which makes our guitar sound gorgeous. I’ll know a lot more after next year playing seasons, but right now it does NOT feed back, at all! We’ve played it right in front of our sound system with no problems.
Next I tried a large transducer in the bodhran, but as Havoc said it has too hot of signal and clipped bad. I used a smaller transducer, 1 - ½” transducer from the Violinissimo pickup, and clamped it between the drum skin and tuning ring. I got a great sound. I must say we are looking for a pure acoustical sound and use nothing more than a little EQ. The band gives me the dirty looks every time I try to add an effect.
I’ve been experimenting with the violin and have not come up with a sound that the band likes, but we are getting close. To answer Pinkmouse’s complaint I’ve had the same problem on the violin but by cutting off everything below 80hz I’ve been able to remover the finger noises. I do agree they can be a pain in getting them placed right. The drum and guitar were easy but the violin has been difficult. A mover of just 1/8” on the body can change the sound. I am determined to changes the band over to pickups because in live sound, feed back has been a major problem and in recording mic bleed keeps me from picking up the individual instruments.
My question to you guys is I would like to build some small, light weight, high quality buffers to mount at the pickup. This is one I like:
http://www.till.com/articles/PreampCable/
I would like to use a better IC. I would like to use a OPA132 from BB. Do you guys know where I can find more information on bringing down the high impedance of the piezo so that I can run it down a cable without loosing anything? A tube buffer or a transformer looks like the best match but I just don’t know enough yet to make a decision.
Thank you,
steve
If you are looking for something for the violin, try getting hold of some PVDF foil. Then, place a piece between the body and the bridge (the wooden piece where the snares run over, between the f-holes). PVDF foil has piezo properties, but is flexible. You could try the same with a small piece of piezo, but the foil is easier.
As for input, a current input should be good. This was used for measurement inputs like for vibration transducers. Protect it very well by clamping with fast diodes to supply rails.
As for input, a current input should be good. This was used for measurement inputs like for vibration transducers. Protect it very well by clamping with fast diodes to supply rails.
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