I'm currently building a room 16'x24' with a cathedral ceiling, to be used as a combination music reharsal space and dance studio(half carpet, half hardwood). I want to build something to use as rehearsal monitors but will be also be used for my wifes dance class and occasional house party.
I have been looking at the Audax PR170ZO and Vifa H26TG-35-06, both fairly efficient. I am planning on going with active XOver. I will be hanging the mids and highs to conserve floor space. I have looked at some bass horn plans. I like the efficiency but the low extension seems lacking. Most Pro PA monitors don't have the sound quality I am looking for. I'm not looking for a club system just something to play live levels in the above said space, sort of a balance between audiophile quality and Pro SPL and efficiency. I am not commited to any drivers at this point just asking for suggestion to fit my needs.
I have been looking at the Audax PR170ZO and Vifa H26TG-35-06, both fairly efficient. I am planning on going with active XOver. I will be hanging the mids and highs to conserve floor space. I have looked at some bass horn plans. I like the efficiency but the low extension seems lacking. Most Pro PA monitors don't have the sound quality I am looking for. I'm not looking for a club system just something to play live levels in the above said space, sort of a balance between audiophile quality and Pro SPL and efficiency. I am not commited to any drivers at this point just asking for suggestion to fit my needs.
Building a room... worried about bass extension and efficiency... have you considered an infinite baffle? If you can have create a manifold to an adjoining basement, attic, garage, etc- then you have potential for really big bass without a visible box in the room, and less need for super high power amplifiers to get the lowest lows.
Another good choice might be a pair of lab horn or two, maybe built into a bar/lectern/podium/dj booth thing.
How high does the crossover to subs need to be?
Another good choice might be a pair of lab horn or two, maybe built into a bar/lectern/podium/dj booth thing.
How high does the crossover to subs need to be?
Suggestion Hobby Hifi - Jetstream
Have you considered this one:
Jetstream by 'Hobby Hifi'. Shown on the cover here: http://www.hobbyhifi.de/Archiv/02/06_02/06_02.html
More info (in German) can be found here - you might have to use the 'search' function as they have an annoying 'return to index page'
:
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/jetstream.htm
I have not laid years on it, but from the article in the magazine it seems to fit you needs "Playing LOUD in hifi quality"
Have you considered this one:
Jetstream by 'Hobby Hifi'. Shown on the cover here: http://www.hobbyhifi.de/Archiv/02/06_02/06_02.html
More info (in German) can be found here - you might have to use the 'search' function as they have an annoying 'return to index page'
:http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/jetstream.htm
I have not laid years on it, but from the article in the magazine it seems to fit you needs "Playing LOUD in hifi quality"
IB Subs?
I have access to a large attic space behind one of my walls. I was thinking of cutting into that space to hide the subs with either a horn or IB setup. Anyone have suggestions on a good IB Sub?
I have been modeling my mids and they seem to need crossed higher than I would like. anyone have any experience with Audax PR170ZO? Any suggestions for a high Efficiency MidBass that can go down to 80-100hz?
I have access to a large attic space behind one of my walls. I was thinking of cutting into that space to hide the subs with either a horn or IB setup. Anyone have suggestions on a good IB Sub?
I have been modeling my mids and they seem to need crossed higher than I would like. anyone have any experience with Audax PR170ZO? Any suggestions for a high Efficiency MidBass that can go down to 80-100hz?
You don’t have to cross so low, as I believe. The upper bass and lower mid is sometimes more pleasant with bigger cones, more ‘full’ and ‘energetic’. You shouldn’t go bellow 300Hz with these 170Z0 for sure, but you can climb up there and even higher with some 12 inch driver, still working within its piston range. Have a look at the Ciare catalogue as well, they built decent and not so expensive drivers. As for real low extension, I have the opinion that a pro 12 or more inch 45 Hz -3dB driver-enclosure scheme will produce substantially better lows from a 8 inch hi-fi 30 Hz -3dB one.
Regards,
Thalis
Regards,
Thalis
I'd be looking at the higher end home theater speakers to get the required spl. If diy I'd look at something like this:
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm
Personally I'd swap out the 18" vented subs for horns, but that's just me
Rob
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm
Personally I'd swap out the 18" vented subs for horns, but that's just me
Rob
Have you seen these horns yet? One unit mounted so it interfaces with the room right at the corner could easily outdo the multiple drivers required for IB manifolds that would be adequate to fill a large room/studio. In addition, there are variations on the plan to account for low end in the home theater range(you mentioned concerns about low end on horns) as well as different widths for portability(not for your application) and different drivers for cost to performance issues. I believe the sensitivity on any variation of this design would allow the use of a less expensive amp since you don't seem to desire structural damage(as some zealots have reported) to your new room. Unlike an IB setup, this design would keep the backwave from the driver from going out through the attic to other parts of the house or neighborhood. Just some food for thought.
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/plan...id/14?osCsid=dcbb2cd199a8d6a73fb8bc5c3902887b
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/plan...id/14?osCsid=dcbb2cd199a8d6a73fb8bc5c3902887b
How loud, how low?
The question that really must be answered is, how loud does it need to be, and how low do you need to go?
If this Audax would have been OK, then you were going to max out around 115-120 db at one meter based on efficiency and power handling (ignoring excursion). Is 120 db at one meter a reasonable goal? This is fairly high for home use, and respectable for something like your application.
How low do you really want to go? Most of the bass you feel in your chest (good for dancing, like in a club) is above 40 hz; the impact of a bass drum is concentrated from 80-240 hz. Below 40 hz (lowest string on a bass guitar) is generally noticed for pipe organs, electronic effects, and movie soundtracks.
Once you've chosen SPL and frequency goals, I think we have some interesting things to work with on this system.
The question that really must be answered is, how loud does it need to be, and how low do you need to go?
If this Audax would have been OK, then you were going to max out around 115-120 db at one meter based on efficiency and power handling (ignoring excursion). Is 120 db at one meter a reasonable goal? This is fairly high for home use, and respectable for something like your application.
How low do you really want to go? Most of the bass you feel in your chest (good for dancing, like in a club) is above 40 hz; the impact of a bass drum is concentrated from 80-240 hz. Below 40 hz (lowest string on a bass guitar) is generally noticed for pipe organs, electronic effects, and movie soundtracks.
Once you've chosen SPL and frequency goals, I think we have some interesting things to work with on this system.
I have looked at the tuba horn plans over at Bill Fitzmaurice's. Was leaning that way originally until I read you might need to couple 2 horns together to get extension to 20hz. Still not out of the question just seems like a lot of work for something I don't know what it will sound like.
I am looking for live music levels . I listen to and play funk, alt rock, world and percussion heavy stuff, (Kodo Drummers, Blue Man Group etc). so I need some authority in the lower registers but at the same time I live with neighbors close. I guess about 110db.
I am looking for live music levels . I listen to and play funk, alt rock, world and percussion heavy stuff, (Kodo Drummers, Blue Man Group etc). so I need some authority in the lower registers but at the same time I live with neighbors close. I guess about 110db.
Blue man has some low stuff, as well as some of the big drums. 110 db at one meter at 20 hz is doable by four Dayton 15" IB subs in an infinite baffle arrangement:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-455
You should be able to reach this with 600 watts. The horns listed thus far really aren't any more efficient at 20 hz than a sealed box; you need a BIG horn to get a lot of efficiency that low.
You can avoid structural damage to your home by having opposing pairs of woofers firing towards each other, both pushing air into our out of a manifold firing into your room. You'd want to push the crossover point to the subs as low as is practical, say 60-80 hz, to prevent cavity resonance in the manifold.
The Eminence Beta 10 CX coaxial in a ported box should be able to do the rest:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-502&DID=7
Plenty of radiating area to get your SPL down to 60 hz (ported), and a horn loaded tweeter. This configuration reminds me of some old Altec movie theater speakers my friend was lucky enough to salvage.
I know you say you want hifi, not a club speaker, so I should point out the kit with these at Adire Audio:
http://adireaudio.com/Home/KITHE10-1.htm
They use their own tweeter and crossover designed for hifi use. At 95 db efficiency it should easily do 110 db with a 150 watt amp. Adire claims 3% distortion from 35hz-18khz at 98 db. An active crossover to a subwoofer may help this thing play a bit louder cleanly. For reference, B&W quotes 1% distortion on their speakers, but at a drive level of only 90 db.
Maybe somebody else has experience with coaxial speakers that they'd like to chime in with. They're suppose to help a lot for time alignment, controlling directivity, and driver integration. In my opinion, these are all key things for good percussion.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-455
You should be able to reach this with 600 watts. The horns listed thus far really aren't any more efficient at 20 hz than a sealed box; you need a BIG horn to get a lot of efficiency that low.
You can avoid structural damage to your home by having opposing pairs of woofers firing towards each other, both pushing air into our out of a manifold firing into your room. You'd want to push the crossover point to the subs as low as is practical, say 60-80 hz, to prevent cavity resonance in the manifold.
The Eminence Beta 10 CX coaxial in a ported box should be able to do the rest:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-502&DID=7
Plenty of radiating area to get your SPL down to 60 hz (ported), and a horn loaded tweeter. This configuration reminds me of some old Altec movie theater speakers my friend was lucky enough to salvage.
I know you say you want hifi, not a club speaker, so I should point out the kit with these at Adire Audio:
http://adireaudio.com/Home/KITHE10-1.htm
They use their own tweeter and crossover designed for hifi use. At 95 db efficiency it should easily do 110 db with a 150 watt amp. Adire claims 3% distortion from 35hz-18khz at 98 db. An active crossover to a subwoofer may help this thing play a bit louder cleanly. For reference, B&W quotes 1% distortion on their speakers, but at a drive level of only 90 db.
Maybe somebody else has experience with coaxial speakers that they'd like to chime in with. They're suppose to help a lot for time alignment, controlling directivity, and driver integration. In my opinion, these are all key things for good percussion.
Eh... I considered trying the Dayton IBs up past 250 hz once for a budget project (dipole open baffle), but for a project of this caliber I wouldn't recommend it- especially not in an infinite baffle with the required manifold. You really need that manifold to cancel out the newtonian reaction force of the driver vibration. You'll shake the heck out of your walls if you just flush mount enough of these 15"s to get the SPL you require.
Does the Adire kit seem lacking?
Does the Adire kit seem lacking?
Konnichiwa,
Well, the Audax takes you to a Midrange Efficiency in the 96db/W/m region.
Here is what I PERSONALLY would do.
Make the system 4-Way. This way you can us a pair of high efficiency (Pro-Audio) 10" Drivers sealed to get good SPL into the 60-80Hz down and up to around 350Hz or thereabouts.
Then fill in the really low end with a suitable subwoofer system, you have already looked at the IB option, I'd go with that.
If you are going to "fly" the Top's you can build a compact design with the two 10" drivers on the outsides and the Audax plus Tweeter (whatever you end up with - I'd recommend a Fountek or Aurum Cantus Ribbon) on the insides, whole size could be 20" X 15" and not all that deep.
In fact, even though you are looking for an active system, such a "top" would work fine using a passive crossover and would probably make a great HT/Multichannel front for larger rooms as well.
Sayonara
DrumDude said:
Well, the Audax takes you to a Midrange Efficiency in the 96db/W/m region.
Here is what I PERSONALLY would do.
Make the system 4-Way. This way you can us a pair of high efficiency (Pro-Audio) 10" Drivers sealed to get good SPL into the 60-80Hz down and up to around 350Hz or thereabouts.
Then fill in the really low end with a suitable subwoofer system, you have already looked at the IB option, I'd go with that.
If you are going to "fly" the Top's you can build a compact design with the two 10" drivers on the outsides and the Audax plus Tweeter (whatever you end up with - I'd recommend a Fountek or Aurum Cantus Ribbon) on the insides, whole size could be 20" X 15" and not all that deep.
In fact, even though you are looking for an active system, such a "top" would work fine using a passive crossover and would probably make a great HT/Multichannel front for larger rooms as well.
Sayonara
This one is very interesting for infinite baffle.http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71699
Konnichiwa,
Coaxials in general are very good. I used to use 15" tannoy Coaxials a while back and they come close to signle driver levels of coherence and soundscaping, but with the balls of a big multiway system.
The Adire Coax is based on modified Eminence stuff and probably a bit too limited, there are several nice 15" Coax Drivers out there. Lastly, why not build something like this:
using the Audax as semi-coax midrange?
If I remember the old Waveform Speakers, they had a traditional doem tweeter (low efficiency), an Audax Mid (high eff) and a pair of 12" Philips Woofers (medium eff). There was a Stereophile review, might be on line now....
So the use of a really small ND Magnet tweeter (I would go for the Focal Car one) might be just fine?
Sayonara
DrumDude said:
Coaxials in general are very good. I used to use 15" tannoy Coaxials a while back and they come close to signle driver levels of coherence and soundscaping, but with the balls of a big multiway system.
The Adire Coax is based on modified Eminence stuff and probably a bit too limited, there are several nice 15" Coax Drivers out there. Lastly, why not build something like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
using the Audax as semi-coax midrange?
If I remember the old Waveform Speakers, they had a traditional doem tweeter (low efficiency), an Audax Mid (high eff) and a pair of 12" Philips Woofers (medium eff). There was a Stereophile review, might be on line now....
So the use of a really small ND Magnet tweeter (I would go for the Focal Car one) might be just fine?
Sayonara
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