It seems that there is more to the digital interconnect theory and application than meets the eye. Characteristic impedance, termination impedance. signal damping and cable shielding. I can justify about 75 to 150 bucks on my digital interconnect between my Cal Labs delta transport and Theta pro DAC. the Theta doesn't have balanced in.
I am thinking about the MIT wire but around here no one has it buy it and I own it. There is transparent Audio, Cardas etc. Presently using monster DI 100 clearly out performs all my anlog interconnects MIT 330s, M1000 and Meitner cable. But I believe there is more. Any one done comparisons of some of the better cables in the 100 dollar range
thanks
I am thinking about the MIT wire but around here no one has it buy it and I own it. There is transparent Audio, Cardas etc. Presently using monster DI 100 clearly out performs all my anlog interconnects MIT 330s, M1000 and Meitner cable. But I believe there is more. Any one done comparisons of some of the better cables in the 100 dollar range
thanks
Digitalis
Apogee Wyde Eye Cable:
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/wydeeyecables.php
-about the best you can buy, and you can afford it!
Better than Kimber's reference cable!
(tested in many setups).
Arne K
Apogee Wyde Eye Cable:
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/wydeeyecables.php
-about the best you can buy, and you can afford it!
Better than Kimber's reference cable!
(tested in many setups).
Arne K
not a great looking site, but the cables deliver for low cost:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/single/digitalaudio.htm
compared them to high-$ cables ($500 and more) can could not tell a difference. Simple recipe here - good coax, teflon dielectric, and if you can, get the BNC connectors on a 5 foot or longer cable.
Cheap enough to try, even if you are skeptical that these cheap cables can sound as good as cable jewelry from big name companies. You can't make them cheaper yourself unless you already have the Canare crip tool ($$$) needed to put these connectors on the wire.
Peer
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/single/digitalaudio.htm
compared them to high-$ cables ($500 and more) can could not tell a difference. Simple recipe here - good coax, teflon dielectric, and if you can, get the BNC connectors on a 5 foot or longer cable.
Cheap enough to try, even if you are skeptical that these cheap cables can sound as good as cable jewelry from big name companies. You can't make them cheaper yourself unless you already have the Canare crip tool ($$$) needed to put these connectors on the wire.
Peer
Re: Digitalis
The Wyde Eye is a cheap cable, selling for much more than its worth in parts of Europe. It also imparts its own characteristic, slightly dry, slightly emhasised hf character. The shielding on it is actuallu not very good. In Britain it sells for £25/m
The Stereovox HDXV at $99 or £69 is a much better cable.
In my experience, properly terminated (depends on socketry), there is no way that the Wyde Eye can beat the Kimber D60 or Orchid in MANY systems, especially higher end ones. The Kimbers do need much running in though.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Cobra2 said:
The Wyde Eye is a cheap cable, selling for much more than its worth in parts of Europe. It also imparts its own characteristic, slightly dry, slightly emhasised hf character. The shielding on it is actuallu not very good. In Britain it sells for £25/m
The Stereovox HDXV at $99 or £69 is a much better cable.
In my experience, properly terminated (depends on socketry), there is no way that the Wyde Eye can beat the Kimber D60 or Orchid in MANY systems, especially higher end ones. The Kimbers do need much running in though.
I've said it before on this forum, and I'll say it again: all you need from a digital cable is for the bits to arrive without error. If you are relying on a S/PDIF transmission to clock your DAC, you've already lost the battle and no cable can help you. if you aren't relying on S/PDIF for your clock, you may as well use any old 75Ω coax you happen to have laying about, it should work fine.
Cables are very important part of any good Hi-Fi setup. Sound tailoring to one's taste is best done by careful selection of:
1. Power cables
2. Interconnects
3. Speaker cables
Power cables are the most important, but interconnects and speaker cables play their role as well.
I suggest to everyone to obtain some pure silver hook-up wire (but it must be solid core), or even better - pure silver ribbons. Both must be heat - treated (annealed). Avoid heavy shielding and tight twists. This is all okay for interconnects and speaker cables.
For digital interconnects, shielding is usually a must, but here you can experiment with the amount of shielding needed, and proximity of the shielding wrap around the 'hot' wire (capacitance). Soldering should be done with 4% silver solder.
I experimented a lot (for many years) with solid core copper cables, solid core silver plated coper cables, solid core silver - and - then - gold plated copper cables, and silver ribbons. Litz cables are not good for me. The best there is? It's silver ribbon as a hook-up wire, silver ribbons twisted pair (no shielding!) for interconnects, and the same for speaker cables.
Power cables? Silver plated and then gold plated solid core coper, 5-6 wires for neutral and 5-6 wires for active, lightly twisted, no shielding, but with ground link which could be a standard ground wire (yellow - green).
The good starting point would be a theory of electron transfer through a conductor. After that - it's only experimenting that will get you somewhere...
Extreme_Boky
1. Power cables
2. Interconnects
3. Speaker cables
Power cables are the most important, but interconnects and speaker cables play their role as well.
I suggest to everyone to obtain some pure silver hook-up wire (but it must be solid core), or even better - pure silver ribbons. Both must be heat - treated (annealed). Avoid heavy shielding and tight twists. This is all okay for interconnects and speaker cables.
For digital interconnects, shielding is usually a must, but here you can experiment with the amount of shielding needed, and proximity of the shielding wrap around the 'hot' wire (capacitance). Soldering should be done with 4% silver solder.
I experimented a lot (for many years) with solid core copper cables, solid core silver plated coper cables, solid core silver - and - then - gold plated copper cables, and silver ribbons. Litz cables are not good for me. The best there is? It's silver ribbon as a hook-up wire, silver ribbons twisted pair (no shielding!) for interconnects, and the same for speaker cables.
Power cables? Silver plated and then gold plated solid core coper, 5-6 wires for neutral and 5-6 wires for active, lightly twisted, no shielding, but with ground link which could be a standard ground wire (yellow - green).
The good starting point would be a theory of electron transfer through a conductor. After that - it's only experimenting that will get you somewhere...
Extreme_Boky
Bits arriving without error is one thing... Having a decent signal going through the cable for the recieving end's clock recovery circuitry is something else - and the absolute worst thing you can feed any kind of clock recovery PLL is a signal with reflections on it.jwb said:
A poorly made cable, 25 ohm dollar store RCA cable can cause this to happen, and someone with a trained ear and a SPDIF-clocked DAC can likely hear something wrong even if every bit is coming through OK. If the receiving end is reclocked with a PLL+VCXO or ASRC chip, the cable is far less important... but using a good cable certainly can't hurt.
And by good cable, ain't nothing wrong with RG-59.
Extreme_Boky said:
Today we have unshielded twisted pairs carrying 1 billion bits per second with very low BER over distances of up to 297 feet. By comparison, 1.4112 megabits per second over a distance of a few feet is a cakewalk. Shielding is practically irrelevant with a well-designed digital interface, and anyone who has installed a network over STP will tell you signal integrity horror stories.
gmarsh said:
I agree ... but paying $300 for a $5 cable never helped anyone.
pburke said:
Yep yep, Belden 1505A plus Canare head is as good as it can go. Make sure you also put in Canare female heads on both transport and DAC (get them cheap at www.markertek.com). Make sure the DAC side has a true 75ohm termination, and a good pulse transformer or caps. If you still get bad sound from this config then the problem source is really embedded in the stupid SPDIF design itself. Time for reclocking and FIFOs.
Lets try this again!
Twisted pairs are 'immune' to noise because the noise generated in both wiries gets cancelled by high CMRR of the first IC. Twisted pairs usually do not need any shielding.
Single ended digital interconnects I WAS REFERRING TO are different story - they do need some shielding. Without shielding they usually cause hiss like white noise.
Extreme_Boky
If you can't send 2.8 MHz over a few feet without shielding........well, never mind.
Yeah, you can pass SPDIF over damn near anything. It will range from sounds like doo-doo to almost acceptable. If you want the latter, you have to work at it. And "work at it" has nothing to do with shielding, although you might end up using the right coax, which, by its nature is shielded.
I really don't want to 'splain this again........maybe if I feel better tomorrow, I might. Don't count on it.
"What? Feeling better, or 'splaining it?"
Either.
Jocko
Yeah, you can pass SPDIF over damn near anything. It will range from sounds like doo-doo to almost acceptable. If you want the latter, you have to work at it. And "work at it" has nothing to do with shielding, although you might end up using the right coax, which, by its nature is shielded.
I really don't want to 'splain this again........maybe if I feel better tomorrow, I might. Don't count on it.
"What? Feeling better, or 'splaining it?"
Either.
Jocko
finneybear said:
As a way of enabling an add-on extra, one wire is as simple as it gets. And as most of its users do not know what SPDIF stands for and couldn't care less it is just as well it is simple. And as to how people can make money selling solutions, spend a little time in other forums and it will become all too clear.
The reason is simple........
Just like CD players.........the guys who cooked it up considered it as "only consumer grade electronics, doesn't have to work that well."
If the same guys had their way, CDs would only go to 15 kHz. They filled volumes of JAES with nonsense why we didn't need to worry about a handful of "golded ears".
Go to some library.......read JAES from very early 80s if you don't believe me.
Jocko
Just like CD players.........the guys who cooked it up considered it as "only consumer grade electronics, doesn't have to work that well."
If the same guys had their way, CDs would only go to 15 kHz. They filled volumes of JAES with nonsense why we didn't need to worry about a handful of "golded ears".
Go to some library.......read JAES from very early 80s if you don't believe me.
Jocko
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