Hi all,
Can any one of you wise solid state men, point me towards the right direction since I am being pestered by the dilemma of whether to use a couple of KIT modules from ampslab (at a detriment to my free time) or whether to buy a decent pro amp such as a crown or a QSC?
Is there any noticeable difference in sound even if I choose to have two independant supplies one for each module? mind you the QSC Crown avenue is a cheaper solution.
The purpose of the amp is home hi fi. I also have a bunch of tube amps but I am a bit fed up with their heat/biasing/delicate nature.
rs
N
Can any one of you wise solid state men, point me towards the right direction since I am being pestered by the dilemma of whether to use a couple of KIT modules from ampslab (at a detriment to my free time) or whether to buy a decent pro amp such as a crown or a QSC?
Is there any noticeable difference in sound even if I choose to have two independant supplies one for each module? mind you the QSC Crown avenue is a cheaper solution.
The purpose of the amp is home hi fi. I also have a bunch of tube amps but I am a bit fed up with their heat/biasing/delicate nature.
rs
N
Crown & QSC are pro amps, there designed to be reliable, stable under any load, etc etc. they are NOT designed with high fidelity in mind!!!! therefore do NOT make good home amps!!!
I am unfamiler with the kit modules you mentioned. but im sure for the price of a Crown or QSC you could buy yourself a very nice high quality solid state HOME amplifier!!!!
Look at some Adcom, Hafler, Soundcraftsmen, Arcam, Ayre, etc etc etc.
Just me .02 Cents worth!
Zero
I am unfamiler with the kit modules you mentioned. but im sure for the price of a Crown or QSC you could buy yourself a very nice high quality solid state HOME amplifier!!!!
Look at some Adcom, Hafler, Soundcraftsmen, Arcam, Ayre, etc etc etc.
Just me .02 Cents worth!
Zero
Personally, I'm a fan of pro amps. You get a heck of a lot for your money in comparison to high end/audiophile amps.
I worked for a small UK pro audio manufacturer for a year placement whilst at uni. One time I borrowed one of their mid range units and took it to my audiophile friends house, full of Naim and Linn stuff. My amp blew his stuff away and he readily admitted it
I'm not saying all pro amps are good, maybe I was just lucky. The problem with them is the fan noise.
With pro amps you have huge headroom, massive cap banks and tough output stages resulting in ability to drive any domestic load with ease.
If you are interested, the VTX 1200 is the closest thing they do now to the one I borrowed. The topology and philosophy is basically the same for the new range, so should be sonically pretty identical. I don't know if they do single private sales though.
I worked for a small UK pro audio manufacturer for a year placement whilst at uni. One time I borrowed one of their mid range units and took it to my audiophile friends house, full of Naim and Linn stuff. My amp blew his stuff away and he readily admitted it
I'm not saying all pro amps are good, maybe I was just lucky. The problem with them is the fan noise.
With pro amps you have huge headroom, massive cap banks and tough output stages resulting in ability to drive any domestic load with ease.
If you are interested, the VTX 1200 is the closest thing they do now to the one I borrowed. The topology and philosophy is basically the same for the new range, so should be sonically pretty identical. I don't know if they do single private sales though.
Crown & QSC are pro amps, there designed to be reliable, stable under any load, etc etc. they are NOT designed with high fidelity in mind!!!! therefore do NOT make good home amps!!!
Crown and QSC amps are high fidelity amplifiers and many many many people use them in their homes with awesome results.
The only complaint is the 'wind noise' when the fans are running.
Most people are adding a resistor or replacing the fans with
'quiet fans', others are not annoyed.
The AVS forum has a good fan base of Crown XLS amplifiers
users, they are paying 25 cents per watt for those amplifiers and
so far there is no sound quality complaints.
Where else can you get a kilowatt amplifier for $250 US average.
If you want to step up to the next higher level, it's cost $350
for the Crown CE series.
People that don't consider these are fooling themselves.
Crown and QSC amps are high fidelity amplifiers and many many many people use them in their homes with awesome results.
The only complaint is the 'wind noise' when the fans are running.
Most people are adding a resistor or replacing the fans with
'quiet fans', others are not annoyed.
The AVS forum has a good fan base of Crown XLS amplifiers
users, they are paying 25 cents per watt for those amplifiers and
so far there is no sound quality complaints.
Where else can you get a kilowatt amplifier for $250 US average.
If you want to step up to the next higher level, it's cost $350
for the Crown CE series.
People that don't consider these are fooling themselves.
richie00boy said:Personally, I'm a fan of pro amps. You get a heck of a lot for your money in comparison to high end/audiophile amps.
I worked for a small UK pro audio manufacturer for a year placement whilst at uni. One time I borrowed one of their mid range units and took it to my audiophile friends house, full of Naim and Linn stuff. My amp blew his stuff away and he readily admitted it
Hey Richie,
I heard a UK based pro-audio poweramp that was pretty good while in Asia once. Never saw that company market here in the US. It was a MOSFET based amp by a company called H&H. Any idea if they are still around or any schematics available for them?
Cheers!
K-
One thing is for sure though, these amps are a very good value for what they offer.
If one should attempt to build them from scratch, the parts alone would cost a lot more, without counting the time one would spend, the error factor and the pain of fixing everything in a chassis ergonomically without having the wife nagging about the looks of it all...
As a counter-argument, I suppose if one were to choose the kit method, one could also use individual power supply for every module and better quality parts for better sound.
Has anyone compared bipolar with mosfets? is there a difference in sound?
If one should attempt to build them from scratch, the parts alone would cost a lot more, without counting the time one would spend, the error factor and the pain of fixing everything in a chassis ergonomically without having the wife nagging about the looks of it all...
As a counter-argument, I suppose if one were to choose the kit method, one could also use individual power supply for every module and better quality parts for better sound.
Has anyone compared bipolar with mosfets? is there a difference in sound?
k-amps,
I think I have seen a H&H amp listed in a sales brochure somewhere, but other than that I can't offer any more.
Nicos,
Big pro power amps are not simple. Unless you are a real wizard with PCB design then stick to buying a ready made unit (which will probably cost not much more anyway).
What you say about kits is right, but IMO to match a pro amp you need the same kind of massive design, and there's just hardly any kits out there to do that. The top two Ampslab bipolar and MOSFET ones should be OK. The other choice is the AV800 from AussieAmps, but from what I can see on here from builders, it may be a good idea to steer clear unless you know what you are doing or don't mind troubleshooting with no support.
I think I have seen a H&H amp listed in a sales brochure somewhere, but other than that I can't offer any more.
Nicos,
Big pro power amps are not simple. Unless you are a real wizard with PCB design then stick to buying a ready made unit (which will probably cost not much more anyway).
What you say about kits is right, but IMO to match a pro amp you need the same kind of massive design, and there's just hardly any kits out there to do that. The top two Ampslab bipolar and MOSFET ones should be OK. The other choice is the AV800 from AussieAmps, but from what I can see on here from builders, it may be a good idea to steer clear unless you know what you are doing or don't mind troubleshooting with no support.
I am a bit surprised to see the tone of this thread. I am doubtful that the ones who have favourably commented about the sonic qualities of pro-amps have actually done enough listening.
I currently own Dynacord and QSC amps for my pro set up. Prior to this I have also used Studiomaster amps but their sound quality was pathetic. In addition, I have checked Crest, Crown, EV, Yamaha and a couple of other amps. None of these can be called hi-fi, forget audiophile grade or hi-end.
If you look at the schematic of the Dynacord for example, it is the same topology as many hi-end amps; symmetrical differential for the input, Vas and triple darlington output, or very much like the Leach design. But you will also find many protection circuits. My overall guess is that they are biased way below hi-end amps. Most of these amps will have a very good low end punch, veiled mids and none too exciting highs.
Most of my hi-end amps outperform all of these amps in the mids and highs but to get the same low end performance is another issue. But wait a minute; you may not get the same punch in the low end but you do get better resolution with atleast some hi-end gear matching the punch as well. The AKSA and Stochino designs come to mind immediately.
Personally, I'd never use one of my many pro-amps in my home.
I currently own Dynacord and QSC amps for my pro set up. Prior to this I have also used Studiomaster amps but their sound quality was pathetic. In addition, I have checked Crest, Crown, EV, Yamaha and a couple of other amps. None of these can be called hi-fi, forget audiophile grade or hi-end.
If you look at the schematic of the Dynacord for example, it is the same topology as many hi-end amps; symmetrical differential for the input, Vas and triple darlington output, or very much like the Leach design. But you will also find many protection circuits. My overall guess is that they are biased way below hi-end amps. Most of these amps will have a very good low end punch, veiled mids and none too exciting highs.
Most of my hi-end amps outperform all of these amps in the mids and highs but to get the same low end performance is another issue. But wait a minute; you may not get the same punch in the low end but you do get better resolution with atleast some hi-end gear matching the punch as well. The AKSA and Stochino designs come to mind immediately.
Personally, I'd never use one of my many pro-amps in my home.
we seem to have a dissenting judgment from Sam here. Anyone care to comment on it?
Logic seems to weigh towards Sam's point of view in light of the difference in mode of operation and design utility of these pro amps, however one never stops to wonder how to get away from paying $3000 for an amp when a pro amp of the same specs would cost $400!
Logic seems to weigh towards Sam's point of view in light of the difference in mode of operation and design utility of these pro amps, however one never stops to wonder how to get away from paying $3000 for an amp when a pro amp of the same specs would cost $400!
Nicos said:
If you look at the ergonomic design of many of the amps in Stereophile you soon come to realize that a lot of money goes into such things as advertising and "domesticity" factors -- now advertising certainly has its place informing the public, but it doesn't contribute to sound quality.
I would go for a kit. We all wipe a nostalgic tear from the cheek when remembering the bygone days when you could buy a Hafler and put it together in a few hours, then take it apart, recap it, twiddle with the power supply, more expensive RCA jacks --- at least dealing with a kit you will get some psychological satisfaction which may help you appreciate the music.
...and then you will get crazy like the rest of us and start taking apart Sorensen and Hewlett Packard power supplies to turn them into high quality amplifiers.
Had a look at theose Cloud pro amps. Lets see...
do they really have the same quality of componants?
Has the layout been thought through as carfully as a high end design?
the stats show that going from a 8ohm load to a 4ohm load the power goes from 190w-265w (+75w or 139%) or 270w - 425w (+155w or 157%) or 320w -525w (+205w or 164%). So these amps dont have a power supply that lets them double up as the load goes down.
Last but not least the fan seems to be solid mounted directly to the chassis which looks to be about 1mm thick pressed steel.
So I have to say that the R&D thet goes into the high end amps will make a difference....for the better
Anything that puts out 270w as standard is going to sound ballsy! try a jlh or passlabs class A amp and see what 10or so watts with a well built power supply behind it sounds like. You'll be pleasantly suprised. 
do they really have the same quality of componants?
Has the layout been thought through as carfully as a high end design?
the stats show that going from a 8ohm load to a 4ohm load the power goes from 190w-265w (+75w or 139%) or 270w - 425w (+155w or 157%) or 320w -525w (+205w or 164%). So these amps dont have a power supply that lets them double up as the load goes down.
Last but not least the fan seems to be solid mounted directly to the chassis which looks to be about 1mm thick pressed steel.
So I have to say that the R&D thet goes into the high end amps will make a difference....for the better
Anything that puts out 270w as standard is going to sound ballsy! try a jlh or passlabs class A amp and see what 10or so watts with a well built power supply behind it sounds like. You'll be pleasantly suprised.
Pro amps cover a lot of territory, so I don't think you can generalize. Thev applications run from PA systems to announce high school basketball games to use in recording studios. Some are made expressly for the abuse of being taken "on the road" while other, once installed go nowhere. Even within a given company like Crown or QSC, different lines adress different markets and applications.
Then there are companies like Polyfusion Audio which had a long legacy making pro amps (under a different name) that noe make home products that include some of the pro design concepts (but thankfully no fan).
When I had this discussion once before (not online) someone I trusted talked up MC2 Audio pro amps from the UK as having sound quality that would place them in the high-end category. I've never even seen one of these, they are rare in North America, I guess, but I'm mentioning them as an example because they have one other trait -- high pricce -- that put the lie to the notion that pro gear is relatively cheap.
Then there are companies like Polyfusion Audio which had a long legacy making pro amps (under a different name) that noe make home products that include some of the pro design concepts (but thankfully no fan).
When I had this discussion once before (not online) someone I trusted talked up MC2 Audio pro amps from the UK as having sound quality that would place them in the high-end category. I've never even seen one of these, they are rare in North America, I guess, but I'm mentioning them as an example because they have one other trait -- high pricce -- that put the lie to the notion that pro gear is relatively cheap.
Those Cloud amps are good. They use metal films and good quality parts throughout. Believe me, a lot of attention has been paid to the layout. Both in terms of achieving top SQ as well as electromagnetic compatibility and RFI issues.
Actually, you are a bit wrong there. The PSU is very capable, but like any amp, as you draw more current you get higher losses due to the resistances present in the output stage (emitter resistors and device resistances).
I'm not sure of the exact thickness of the case, but I'm sure you can't work it out from a pic like that! And anyway, what if the structure was rigid by means other than massive panel thickness, like a modern car?
I've no doubt Pass etc sound wonderful, but a lot of supposedly high end is just a rip off in comparison to some pro stuff. e.g. one of these amps costs much less than £1k, what will that buy you in high end land?
JRKO said:
Actually, you are a bit wrong there. The PSU is very capable, but like any amp, as you draw more current you get higher losses due to the resistances present in the output stage (emitter resistors and device resistances).
I'm not sure of the exact thickness of the case, but I'm sure you can't work it out from a pic like that! And anyway, what if the structure was rigid by means other than massive panel thickness, like a modern car?
I've no doubt Pass etc sound wonderful, but a lot of supposedly high end is just a rip off in comparison to some pro stuff. e.g. one of these amps costs much less than £1k, what will that buy you in high end land?
richie00boy said:
You get what you pay for! You might be content driving a Pinto, personally i like BMW's & Ferrari's! others may suffice with a plain ol chevy. and yet others do well with Honda's.
its pointless to try and discuss a Pinto VS. a Ferrari, 2 different vehicles meant for two totally different things.
both will get you from point A to Point B.
one will just do it faster and with a whole lot more grace and style but will definitly cost you a whole lot more!
Quality differences? You tell me?
Zero
I posted the 8ohm to 4 ohm bit because many (not all) high end amps have a sufficiantly stiff power supply to double power output as the load drops.
Looking at the back panel you can see it looks similar to the back of your PC, ie pressed steel. I am sure that these amps sound fine but most of these amps are about power in harsh enviroments. High end amps are way ott for my pocket but you can buy this from maplin for £149 which while not up to the Cloud standards provides the same sort of tech spec.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=33348&TabID=1&source=15&WorldID=&doy=2m11
For the money that you would pay for a pro amp you could PROBABLY build a pair of very nice mono blocks that sound way better.
Looking at the back panel you can see it looks similar to the back of your PC, ie pressed steel. I am sure that these amps sound fine but most of these amps are about power in harsh enviroments. High end amps are way ott for my pocket but you can buy this from maplin for £149 which while not up to the Cloud standards provides the same sort of tech spec.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=33348&TabID=1&source=15&WorldID=&doy=2m11
For the money that you would pay for a pro amp you could PROBABLY build a pair of very nice mono blocks that sound way better.
But that Maplin amp DOESN'T provide the same sort of specs. 1000W? Yeah, peak to peak, at huge distortion levels for an unsustainable duration, with a supply that collapses at the merest hint of a difficult load. Built with cheap parts that degrade and are loosely matched, and will not withstand the same sort of sustained use that a real pro amp can. Not to mention the other corners cut that affect sound quality.
Anyway, I know your point and respect it, lets not argue
You can build very nice stuff, and from kits, but a good pro amp sets a tough benchmark.
Anyway, I know your point and respect it, lets not argue
You can build very nice stuff, and from kits, but a good pro amp sets a tough benchmark.
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