Hi guys,
Well, I have been busy fixing a few of my amps lately with the help of a few of you guys here. I am really getting ancious to build something. I am looking for suggestiong as to how to get started. I would like to build something that is better than the amps I currently have but realize that may not be the best place to start. I currently have Hafler DH-200, Hafler Pro230 and Soundcraftsmen PCR800. Is this a realistic pursuit?
These amps seem only ample for my needs and I'm not sure I would have use for someting less powerful unless it was far, far superior sonically.
I have searched through the threads, but end up reading for hours and still don't have a good idea where to start. I have very limited knowledge about electronics but have a huge desire to learn.
Thanks for any help you can give me.
Blessings, Terry
Well, I have been busy fixing a few of my amps lately with the help of a few of you guys here. I am really getting ancious to build something. I am looking for suggestiong as to how to get started. I would like to build something that is better than the amps I currently have but realize that may not be the best place to start. I currently have Hafler DH-200, Hafler Pro230 and Soundcraftsmen PCR800. Is this a realistic pursuit?
These amps seem only ample for my needs and I'm not sure I would have use for someting less powerful unless it was far, far superior sonically.
I have searched through the threads, but end up reading for hours and still don't have a good idea where to start. I have very limited knowledge about electronics but have a huge desire to learn.
Thanks for any help you can give me.
Blessings, Terry
Hi Terry!
While i'm not familiar with building "solid state" from scratch, I have on the other hand built a couple of IC amps referd to as GainClones, and those can be hard enough for a "newbee", not using kits.
Etching the boards, making layouts ect.
and so my tip would be to perhaps start there.
though not having heard of the amps you spoke of, I personally am a beliver in theese litle GC's.. very nice indeed.
wish you the best of luck with diy regardless.
Marius
While i'm not familiar with building "solid state" from scratch, I have on the other hand built a couple of IC amps referd to as GainClones, and those can be hard enough for a "newbee", not using kits.
Etching the boards, making layouts ect.
and so my tip would be to perhaps start there.
though not having heard of the amps you spoke of, I personally am a beliver in theese litle GC's.. very nice indeed.
wish you the best of luck with diy regardless.
Marius
Terry,
Welcome to the DIYaudio forum.
Yes, there's tone of material and inspiration here, but it's not a site which is good as a collection of pre-planned DIY kits.
You're not ensured to make it cheaper by DIY than the companies do. Let's make that clear to start with.
One of the reasons (apart from the benefit of mas production) is that the large companies have to make compromises that DIY'ers don't. A frequent compromise can be found in the power supplies of commercial products, and their (lack of) heat sinking calculations. They have some internal heat sinks, and while they're usually adequate, they usually don't stand up to long term high-level listening with demanding speakers. They have their (thermal) safety circuits, which I personally don't believe in. I prefer to design on the safe side, and avoid the need for this safety stuff by design.
Secondly I like BIG power supplies.
Something way too costly for most affordable commercial stuff.
Sonically, there's no guarantee that your DIY stuff will sound better than the commercual stuff, but there's a decent chance.
Remember that part of the fun of DIY'ing is in the "D".
Then again, my amp design has created requests from both my brother and some colleagues. I'm currently in the tarting phase of building a set of amp's for my brother, but you're too early for copying along, as I don't have correct schematics, and I will have to do a wire change to my PCB's (didn't bother to have new ones made - too expensive).
So, sonically, I'd never change my current 80W @ 8ohm amp back to my Onkyo Integra with the same rating. There's a lot more "whomp" when called for in my DIY thing. (Then again, there's a lot more juice in the power supply than the Onkyo ever had. The transformers in this one weigh about the same (in total) as the complete Onkyo amp.)
Since you're not that experienced with the electronics, you can have a look at the GainClones (CG for short, if you search for them), although I fear that they are not powerful enough for your needs. Alternatively, visit the web page of an Australian guy called Rod Elliot, who has taken his doings to the level of offering printed circuit boards. This would probably make life somewhat easier for you. A popular sedign seems to be:
http://sound.westhost.com/project3a.htm
Ob, my... what a lot of stuff in one post (y'all can wake up now... I'm about done
)
Just keep in mind: High power and high quality don't mix with low budget, but you've probably realised that by now.
Jennice
Welcome to the DIYaudio forum.
Yes, there's tone of material and inspiration here, but it's not a site which is good as a collection of pre-planned DIY kits.
You're not ensured to make it cheaper by DIY than the companies do. Let's make that clear to start with.
One of the reasons (apart from the benefit of mas production) is that the large companies have to make compromises that DIY'ers don't. A frequent compromise can be found in the power supplies of commercial products, and their (lack of) heat sinking calculations. They have some internal heat sinks, and while they're usually adequate, they usually don't stand up to long term high-level listening with demanding speakers. They have their (thermal) safety circuits, which I personally don't believe in. I prefer to design on the safe side, and avoid the need for this safety stuff by design.
Secondly I like BIG power supplies.
Something way too costly for most affordable commercial stuff.
Sonically, there's no guarantee that your DIY stuff will sound better than the commercual stuff, but there's a decent chance.
Remember that part of the fun of DIY'ing is in the "D".
Then again, my amp design has created requests from both my brother and some colleagues. I'm currently in the tarting phase of building a set of amp's for my brother, but you're too early for copying along, as I don't have correct schematics, and I will have to do a wire change to my PCB's (didn't bother to have new ones made - too expensive).
So, sonically, I'd never change my current 80W @ 8ohm amp back to my Onkyo Integra with the same rating. There's a lot more "whomp" when called for in my DIY thing. (Then again, there's a lot more juice in the power supply than the Onkyo ever had. The transformers in this one weigh about the same (in total) as the complete Onkyo amp.)
Since you're not that experienced with the electronics, you can have a look at the GainClones (CG for short, if you search for them), although I fear that they are not powerful enough for your needs. Alternatively, visit the web page of an Australian guy called Rod Elliot, who has taken his doings to the level of offering printed circuit boards. This would probably make life somewhat easier for you. A popular sedign seems to be:
http://sound.westhost.com/project3a.htm
Ob, my... what a lot of stuff in one post (y'all can wake up now... I'm about done
)Just keep in mind: High power and high quality don't mix with low budget, but you've probably realised that by now.
Jennice
Hello still4given,
Check out these pages:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/lowtim/
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/superamp/
http://sound.westhost.com/project101.htm
Good documentation from the authors, proven design, sounds as good as the amps you have now. Not kits, so you get to learn something also.
For the power supply read up here:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ssps1_e.html
http://zero-distortion.com/start.htm
Prosit
Check out these pages:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/lowtim/
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/superamp/
http://sound.westhost.com/project101.htm
Good documentation from the authors, proven design, sounds as good as the amps you have now. Not kits, so you get to learn something also.
For the power supply read up here:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ssps1_e.html
http://zero-distortion.com/start.htm
Prosit
Hey folks, thanks for the quick replies.
demogorgon,
I have read a little about the Gainclone amp. I believe they are in the Chip Amp forum, am I right? They look very simple to build. How is the fidelity? The amps I have right now range from the Haflers at about 100WPC to 205WPC for the Soundcraftsmen. They are all MOSFET amps.
It seemed like the GC's were quite a bit less, though I know that there is more to loudness than just watts. I am driving JBL 4412 Studio Moitors and 4425 Studio Monitors. They are fairly efficient so I may not need the power I am currently running.
skyraider,
I wouldn't say budget is no option but I have been tinking about tube as well. Could you offer some links for some, at least kit type tube amps?
Jennice,
Thanks for the informative post. I will keep an eye out for you progress on you design.
acenovelty,
Thanks for the links. tThose Leach amps look pretty good.
Blessings, Terry
demogorgon,
I have read a little about the Gainclone amp. I believe they are in the Chip Amp forum, am I right? They look very simple to build. How is the fidelity? The amps I have right now range from the Haflers at about 100WPC to 205WPC for the Soundcraftsmen. They are all MOSFET amps.
It seemed like the GC's were quite a bit less, though I know that there is more to loudness than just watts. I am driving JBL 4412 Studio Moitors and 4425 Studio Monitors. They are fairly efficient so I may not need the power I am currently running.
skyraider,
I wouldn't say budget is no option but I have been tinking about tube as well. Could you offer some links for some, at least kit type tube amps?
Jennice,
Thanks for the informative post. I will keep an eye out for you progress on you design.
acenovelty,
Thanks for the links. tThose Leach amps look pretty good.
Blessings, Terry
Still4given,
Like some ESP projects (Rod Elliot, aka. Elliot Sound Products), my own is fairly straight-forward. I build my power transistors (I'm a BJT guy) and rpower resistors directly on the heat sink (hard-wired), and mount the small signal part on a 9x11 cm PCB.
I found this to be the easiest way to use whatever heat sinks I can get my hands on, with the same small-signal circuit.
Oh yeah.. and let's not forget the PSU. (Can such a thing ever get big eough? I don't believe so...
(This hurts on the budget)
Before we get any further, you'll have to decide on budget limits. Also, your project plans depend on availaibility of places that can make PCB's for you (unless you can DIY). This aspect may be cruicial on deciding for a finished design with PCB, or which route to take.
How extensive is your knowledge on electronics, and which tools / measuring devices do you have at hand?
Jennice
Like some ESP projects (Rod Elliot, aka. Elliot Sound Products), my own is fairly straight-forward. I build my power transistors (I'm a BJT guy) and rpower resistors directly on the heat sink (hard-wired), and mount the small signal part on a 9x11 cm PCB.
I found this to be the easiest way to use whatever heat sinks I can get my hands on, with the same small-signal circuit.
Oh yeah.. and let's not forget the PSU. (Can such a thing ever get big eough? I don't believe so...
(This hurts on the budget)Before we get any further, you'll have to decide on budget limits. Also, your project plans depend on availaibility of places that can make PCB's for you (unless you can DIY). This aspect may be cruicial on deciding for a finished design with PCB, or which route to take.
How extensive is your knowledge on electronics, and which tools / measuring devices do you have at hand?
Jennice
Hi Jennice,
Thanks for the reply.
I have very little experience except for the little bit I've learned by working on my present amps. Right now all I have for test equipment is a multi meter. As I go along I will be adding to that for sure.
I guess my plan is to start with someting fairly simple so I can learn. I just thought it would be best to build something that I can actually use rather than just building something that will sit on a shelf.
I have a couple of Hafler power transformers that I bought to fix my Haflers and then found I didn't need them. I'm not sure it they will be useful for a DIY project. They put out 63V per side. Heavy things as well. It seems most of the amps I see being built here use toroid trannies.
I have zero experience making PCBs so I should probably start with an amp design for which I could obtain a PCB.
As I said, I am open for suggestions.
Blessings, Terry
Thanks for the reply.
I have very little experience except for the little bit I've learned by working on my present amps. Right now all I have for test equipment is a multi meter. As I go along I will be adding to that for sure.
I guess my plan is to start with someting fairly simple so I can learn. I just thought it would be best to build something that I can actually use rather than just building something that will sit on a shelf.
I have a couple of Hafler power transformers that I bought to fix my Haflers and then found I didn't need them. I'm not sure it they will be useful for a DIY project. They put out 63V per side. Heavy things as well. It seems most of the amps I see being built here use toroid trannies.
I have zero experience making PCBs so I should probably start with an amp design for which I could obtain a PCB.
As I said, I am open for suggestions.
Blessings, Terry
still4given said:
An oscilloscope (2 channels preferrably) will certainly be a nice addition. Older ones with 10 - 20 MHz are fine for audio use (even for seeing possible oscillations).
I fully understand your point of view. This should be possible with some of the proven designs from (amongst others) ESP.
63V will give you quite some output power. Is it 63V AC or rectified DC? Even if it's 63V DC, you'll probably want 100V electrolytic caps.
If I recall correctly, you're in the states with 110V outlet voltage. If your transformers are with two primaries (spare parts that could be used in europe with 230V, then you could leave it at that and use it at half the rated voltage. Remember that current capability will not double, so your useable power is decreased.
If you are daring enough to use a schematic program, or can find pictures of layouts, then there is the option of finding a place that can make them for you. Most places are for business customers who (gladly?) pay a LOT but get the PCB's made very quickly. DIY'ers usually have other priorities.
Chip amps are probably the easiest thing to start with, although you're not likely to find 100W chip amps. The GainClones are said to sound very good indeed (unlike some power chips).
Some are so easy that they can be hard-wired without the need for PCB's. Some ESP projects have PCB's available. I'd say there are plenty of options. By the sound of your electronics knowledge, I'd go for chip amp or a kit.
Jennice
Terry!
To tell someone how good an amp sounds is like discussing, well, audio.. there is just no factbook answer offcourse *** how we like sound and how we weight differen parameters!
but if i do have to say something about the sound of the gc at least i have made, thn i would say that they sond like they could have cost aboute 500-600 dollars and be a hell of a bargain
they do like easy to drive speakers, så those monitors of yours might wel be a very good match for a GC.
And they do put out 68w per chip, if treated right
(there is no reason why you could not bridge or paralell them though)
oh, and did i forgett? there are PLENTY of pcb layotes to study for Gainclones. just search for "kostasthegrate" and you should find his pcb layoute wich i use.
(btw, those trannys of yourse may prove a bit to violent for a GC as trhey dont like more than 2*42v dc into them..)
To tell someone how good an amp sounds is like discussing, well, audio.. there is just no factbook answer offcourse *** how we like sound and how we weight differen parameters!
but if i do have to say something about the sound of the gc at least i have made, thn i would say that they sond like they could have cost aboute 500-600 dollars and be a hell of a bargain
they do like easy to drive speakers, så those monitors of yours might wel be a very good match for a GC.
And they do put out 68w per chip, if treated right
(there is no reason why you could not bridge or paralell them though)
oh, and did i forgett? there are PLENTY of pcb layotes to study for Gainclones. just search for "kostasthegrate" and you should find his pcb layoute wich i use.
(btw, those trannys of yourse may prove a bit to violent for a GC as trhey dont like more than 2*42v dc into them..)
Although already mentioned above, the P101 from ESP (http://sound.au.com) would be an excellent choice. I have just finished two and it is the only amp I've built so far that worked perfectly on the first try. Assembling the PCB was quite easy.
The PCB fits parralle to the surface of the heatsink with the MOSFETS sandwiched in between. This is a great convenince when trying to squeeze everything in to an enclosure. For a first timer this aspect may be more of a challenge than the PCB itself.
It is flexible in that you can choose a power level from 100W to 200W and I suspect thw 100W configuration would work at 50W. (Some brave soul will sooner or later try "double die" MOSFETS and attempt a monster amp)
The PCB fits parralle to the surface of the heatsink with the MOSFETS sandwiched in between. This is a great convenince when trying to squeeze everything in to an enclosure. For a first timer this aspect may be more of a challenge than the PCB itself.
It is flexible in that you can choose a power level from 100W to 200W and I suspect thw 100W configuration would work at 50W. (Some brave soul will sooner or later try "double die" MOSFETS and attempt a monster amp)
It's 63V rectified DC. I have two of the international versions although I have installed one in one of my Haflers. I can change them back if necessary since there was nothing wrong with the stock unit.
they do like easy to drive speakers, så those monitors of yours might wel be a very good match for a GC.
And they do put out 68w per chip, if treated right
(there is no reason why you could not bridge or paralell them though)
The GC might be a good place to start, if I an find the PCBs and the chips. They look to be very simple to build.
Hum, the website says that the PCB sill be available in FEB, I think. Are yu telling me that they are already availible?
Thanks, Terry
According to his web site, http://sound.westhost.com/project101.htm , PCB's are available. The flags (I think) indicate last updates and status.
Otherwise, email him - his addy is there somewhere...
Jennice
Otherwise, email him - his addy is there somewhere...
Jennice
You have to go to the Purchase>pcbs> page. The current stock, as mentioned, has an error but you get instruction on correcting easily. The published instructions (unless corrected already) also have a bit of confusion regarding nomenclature and identification of a couple of capacitors but it is easy to figure out what is intended.
The sooner we buy up the initial stock the sooner Rod can start selling error-free versions (which IMO will sound just the bsame, i.e., good).
Terry,
I am going to second the suggestion for a Leach amp. Mine was my first DIY project with just a little more experience than you have. By taking my time and time and double checking everything along the way it fired up and worked right the first time. The sound quality is excellent -- although I have never heard an ESP amp.
You can also modify the Leach a little to make use of those Hafler transformers. Change and increase the quantity of the output devices and drivers and a couple other changes that are easy and you can run it at 80 volt rails. PM me and I'll detail how I am doing it.
I am going to second the suggestion for a Leach amp. Mine was my first DIY project with just a little more experience than you have. By taking my time and time and double checking everything along the way it fired up and worked right the first time. The sound quality is excellent -- although I have never heard an ESP amp.
You can also modify the Leach a little to make use of those Hafler transformers. Change and increase the quantity of the output devices and drivers and a couple other changes that are easy and you can run it at 80 volt rails. PM me and I'll detail how I am doing it.
Stereo with single power supply.
35-0-35 500VA from Avel-Lindberg.
Just the PCBs. I used 4 MOSFETS per board even though even though I'm limiting it to 100W for now (see transformer answer) which I got as matched pairs from www.diy-tech.com Most other components for the PCBs were available locally from a surplus shop-- anything else from digikey. Also I check my storage bins as I seem to have accumulated miscellaneous cap and resistors need to be used if possible.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.