Pardon me, but I have written a whole epistle here (chapter, verse and numerous diversions) but here it is:
I have signed up to buy the basic LM4790 kit, but I have a few questions that have been addressed only in passing elsewhere.
I really like the discussion here, but I would like to see some of this expertise organized into a more comprehensible manner.
*********
BTW, I really like the GR-research speakers. I researched the hell out of everything before I made my choice and bought the drivers without hearing the system first. I don't have as much expertise with amp building as with speakers (I dabbled in the late 70's and early 80s, and was building Sub-sats way back then). I learned how to listen for good sound at the very least.
So I hope I've picked the right project for my budget with this gain clone.
I am currently using a rather beat-up Proton receiver I got for cheap on e-bay to drive these. It sounds slightly better than the even cheaper Kenwood it replaced. (The kenwood would thermally shut off after doing a really bass-heavy loud passage every now and then and the proton has slightly better bass). Both are pretty articulate in the mids and highs, especially given that I paid less than $70 for each of them including shipping. BTW, this is a really old Kenwood, before they started making that cheap stuff in the 80s. Don't laugh, it sounds pretty good.
Better name brands, like Marantz (and most certainly anything from NAD) got bid up thru the roof of my puny budget. I couldn't afford to pay for names.
The main thing I'm looking for on the gain clone is a bit more headroom and perhaps more sonic clarity as a result. So far, the GR-research speakers seem capable to do far more than what I'm giving them.
P.S. I'm sure the caps in my old amps could use replacing, but I don't know where to start on that either. Or whether it is just good money after bad. I can sell them as is for what I paid for them.
I have signed up to buy the basic LM4790 kit, but I have a few questions that have been addressed only in passing elsewhere.
- Not counting the cost of the enclosure (which can vary all over the map depending on the esthetics), what is the range of costs for the entire amp project, including things that are not in the kit?
Specifically, what is NOT in the kit?
When is it likely that the order will happen?
Is there some way that I'm being clueless?
- So will I need to add the regulator for adequate bass response in this situation?
Or will the small filter caps be enough?
Is there a schematic and or circuit board for a good regulator?
Can it be added later without a lot of rebuilding?
I really like the discussion here, but I would like to see some of this expertise organized into a more comprehensible manner.
*********
BTW, I really like the GR-research speakers. I researched the hell out of everything before I made my choice and bought the drivers without hearing the system first. I don't have as much expertise with amp building as with speakers (I dabbled in the late 70's and early 80s, and was building Sub-sats way back then). I learned how to listen for good sound at the very least.
So I hope I've picked the right project for my budget with this gain clone.
I am currently using a rather beat-up Proton receiver I got for cheap on e-bay to drive these. It sounds slightly better than the even cheaper Kenwood it replaced. (The kenwood would thermally shut off after doing a really bass-heavy loud passage every now and then and the proton has slightly better bass). Both are pretty articulate in the mids and highs, especially given that I paid less than $70 for each of them including shipping. BTW, this is a really old Kenwood, before they started making that cheap stuff in the 80s. Don't laugh, it sounds pretty good.
Better name brands, like Marantz (and most certainly anything from NAD) got bid up thru the roof of my puny budget. I couldn't afford to pay for names.
The main thing I'm looking for on the gain clone is a bit more headroom and perhaps more sonic clarity as a result. So far, the GR-research speakers seem capable to do far more than what I'm giving them.
P.S. I'm sure the caps in my old amps could use replacing, but I don't know where to start on that either. Or whether it is just good money after bad. I can sell them as is for what I paid for them.
A regulated supply should sound better. See Pedja's site for more details.
You sound as though you are quite new to all this though, so may I suggest building a non-regulated amp first.
The regulator can be added later without a complete rebuild.
How much will it cost? I don't know what comes in the kit but other items that spring to mind are: case, sockets, selector switch, volume control, speaker terminals, mains cable, plug, grommet, fuses, power switch, transformer. You will have to price these up for yourself but a ballpark figure excluding the case would be about 50-60 USD using a cheapo volume control.
Are you being clueless? Only you can answer that one!
That's another way of saying that you cannot really be bothered to read through the posts to get the inormation that you want! I have spent 15 minutes posting this information which is all on this forum for the reading!
from the Nepalese Mantra:
Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
You sound as though you are quite new to all this though, so may I suggest building a non-regulated amp first.
The regulator can be added later without a complete rebuild.How much will it cost? I don't know what comes in the kit but other items that spring to mind are: case, sockets, selector switch, volume control, speaker terminals, mains cable, plug, grommet, fuses, power switch, transformer. You will have to price these up for yourself but a ballpark figure excluding the case would be about 50-60 USD using a cheapo volume control.
Are you being clueless? Only you can answer that one!
That's another way of saying that you cannot really be bothered to read through the posts to get the inormation that you want! I have spent 15 minutes posting this information which is all on this forum for the reading!
from the Nepalese Mantra:
Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
i agree.
I spend hours reading the countless posts in the lm3876 thread, often being distracted by PCB design-vias or not, special caps or not,when all i really wanted to know,is how much power id get if i bridged the 2 parallel chips...it took an afternoon to find
a simple FAQ with the 1st ten questions people ask,would save 90% of the asking!
perhaps add it to the wiki page?
Cheers!
I spend hours reading the countless posts in the lm3876 thread, often being distracted by PCB design-vias or not, special caps or not,when all i really wanted to know,is how much power id get if i bridged the 2 parallel chips...it took an afternoon to find
a simple FAQ with the 1st ten questions people ask,would save 90% of the asking!
perhaps add it to the wiki page?
Cheers!
There is nothing stopping anybody trawling through the posts and condensing the information into smaller 'packages' that could then be put on some web space.
That's what I did originally with the FAQ page on Decibel Dungeon.
There are several other very good chip amp sites around for the searching but it does seem that some people are relying on others to do all their research for them!
When you post on this forum, you are requested to tick a box confirming that you have searched the forum for an answer to your question before you post!
Now I don't mind helping anybody but I am finding myself answering the same questions over and over again. Yes, I know that I don't have to but out of courtesy, I do.
And I get more than a few emails through Decibel Dungeon asking questions that are answered on the site. So not only do some people expect others to spend a large part of their time creating web sites, they then can't even be bothered to use the search facility to find the answer that they want.
It's a great pity that the Internet is seen as a free source of information. I totally agree that information should not have to be paid for but many see this as an excuse to take advantage of the situation by taking all the time and putting nothing back.
I have 'taken' lots and recieved lots of help via the Internet but I hope that I have also put a little bit back. And before I ask others for answers, I have a good look for myself first.
I'll step of this soapbox now but I think what I have said is well worth the time it took to type!
That's what I did originally with the FAQ page on Decibel Dungeon.
There are several other very good chip amp sites around for the searching but it does seem that some people are relying on others to do all their research for them!
When you post on this forum, you are requested to tick a box confirming that you have searched the forum for an answer to your question before you post!
Now I don't mind helping anybody but I am finding myself answering the same questions over and over again. Yes, I know that I don't have to but out of courtesy, I do.
And I get more than a few emails through Decibel Dungeon asking questions that are answered on the site. So not only do some people expect others to spend a large part of their time creating web sites, they then can't even be bothered to use the search facility to find the answer that they want.
It's a great pity that the Internet is seen as a free source of information. I totally agree that information should not have to be paid for but many see this as an excuse to take advantage of the situation by taking all the time and putting nothing back.
I have 'taken' lots and recieved lots of help via the Internet but I hope that I have also put a little bit back. And before I ask others for answers, I have a good look for myself first.
I'll step of this soapbox now but I think what I have said is well worth the time it took to type!
Aaaaaaaaaamen!
Some of us really work hard to make something new, try this and that, listen, try again, report the results, schematics, everything people can find here.
But then, I receive personal mails to send the schematic of my pre.
And when I repply with the link and the post where I comment the values of the components, I receive this: "yeah, just thought it would be easyer to ask you".
A guy even told me he was going to build my pre, and then this beauty: "Carlos, can I connect the pre to my speakers?"
, I told him: "this is a line pre, you need an amp too." Question: "what's a line pre?".
Wazzat?
Some of us really work hard to make something new, try this and that, listen, try again, report the results, schematics, everything people can find here.
But then, I receive personal mails to send the schematic of my pre.
And when I repply with the link and the post where I comment the values of the components, I receive this: "yeah, just thought it would be easyer to ask you".
A guy even told me he was going to build my pre, and then this beauty: "Carlos, can I connect the pre to my speakers?"
, I told him: "this is a line pre, you need an amp too." Question: "what's a line pre?". Wazzat?
This is something of a 'chicken and egg' situation.
When people keep asking the same questions, the number of threads grows and questions get answered, often in part, in the various threads on the same subject.
Then people come here and say that they can't find what they are looking for, ask the same questions again, and the information that they (and others) seek gets buried deeper in the heap of threads.
That's the reason for the 'have you searched' check box when we post but I guess it is easier to just click in it and post anyway.
But if you can't find anything here, you should try the health forum that I go to. 95% of the posters are female and every thread descends into a long chain of irrelevence. Nobody seems to mind though and yes, the same questions get answered time and time again.
When people keep asking the same questions, the number of threads grows and questions get answered, often in part, in the various threads on the same subject.
Then people come here and say that they can't find what they are looking for, ask the same questions again, and the information that they (and others) seek gets buried deeper in the heap of threads.
That's the reason for the 'have you searched' check box when we post but I guess it is easier to just click in it and post anyway.
But if you can't find anything here, you should try the health forum that I go to. 95% of the posters are female and every thread descends into a long chain of irrelevence. Nobody seems to mind though and yes, the same questions get answered time and time again.
I wasn't expecting you to jump all over me like this. I HAVE been reading and searching the pages for days on end, several hours a day.
I have not found the answers to any of the questions I made here. Most of the discussion is mentioning things in passing that I don't yet understand.
What I was hoping for, was some advice to fill in what I had not yet discovered. I do intend to make it worth your time by posting a how-to that I will keep regularly updated.
Even if I am clueless, there are several questions here that haven't been answered.
I am not one of these people that don't understand basic physics or electronics. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering; but I don't have enough electronic engineering expertise to make sense of so much of the stuff mentioned in passing here.
I was just asking for a little help. I do appreciate the answer to one of the most important questions -- the cost of the parts.
I have not found the answers to any of the questions I made here. Most of the discussion is mentioning things in passing that I don't yet understand.
What I was hoping for, was some advice to fill in what I had not yet discovered. I do intend to make it worth your time by posting a how-to that I will keep regularly updated.
Even if I am clueless, there are several questions here that haven't been answered.
I am not one of these people that don't understand basic physics or electronics. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering; but I don't have enough electronic engineering expertise to make sense of so much of the stuff mentioned in passing here.
I was just asking for a little help. I do appreciate the answer to one of the most important questions -- the cost of the parts.
So that it wouldn't get buried in the middle of whatever else you were discussing at the moment in that thread?
*****
First, I should assure you that I understand that the open-ended discussion is very, very valuable.
There just needs to be someone involved with collecting the information into a more accessible form to help the less-experienced get their feet wet.
A newbie like me may be better at doing this than an experienced hacker, because I have the questions right now.
*****
I want to collect all of the newbie stuff in one place, so that people like me can get more questions answered efficiently.
(at least the reasonably intelligent ones --- we don't have a prayer of helping someone that doesn't want to understand basic physics).
****
BTW, I have a few more.
1. For all of the discussion about inverting / non-inverting, nobody explains what that is. They just assume that you know. I gather it has something to do with how the amp is connected to the ground plane. I know that this is basic, but I would like to know.
2. What is a zoebel? They are discussed all over the place, but I haven't found a definition.
3. Is a metal box recommended, or is just having grounded metal shielding between the high voltage AC stuff and the low voltage amplifier circuits good enough?
And an observation: Some of us are less interested in tweaking at first. Some of was want a known-to-work solid design. Then we can do our tweaking from there. Or not. I might just be happy and leave good-enough alone.
So many of you have so much tweaking experience, that even as you describe a design, you make it very unclear what the final design was. Lacking a place to start, it is hard to put your tweaks into perspective.
For example, my first speaker project was a plop-in-the box speakerlab kit. I built the box myself. For my skills at the moment, that was a great choice. I later moved on to buying raw drivers, building my own crossovers, etc.
I think that this gain clone can be a good first project, but given my very limited budget, Ijust need to have fewer open questions before I commit my time and funds to it.
*****
First, I should assure you that I understand that the open-ended discussion is very, very valuable.
There just needs to be someone involved with collecting the information into a more accessible form to help the less-experienced get their feet wet.
A newbie like me may be better at doing this than an experienced hacker, because I have the questions right now.
*****
I want to collect all of the newbie stuff in one place, so that people like me can get more questions answered efficiently.
(at least the reasonably intelligent ones --- we don't have a prayer of helping someone that doesn't want to understand basic physics).
****
BTW, I have a few more.
1. For all of the discussion about inverting / non-inverting, nobody explains what that is. They just assume that you know. I gather it has something to do with how the amp is connected to the ground plane. I know that this is basic, but I would like to know.
2. What is a zoebel? They are discussed all over the place, but I haven't found a definition.
3. Is a metal box recommended, or is just having grounded metal shielding between the high voltage AC stuff and the low voltage amplifier circuits good enough?
And an observation: Some of us are less interested in tweaking at first. Some of was want a known-to-work solid design. Then we can do our tweaking from there. Or not. I might just be happy and leave good-enough alone.
So many of you have so much tweaking experience, that even as you describe a design, you make it very unclear what the final design was. Lacking a place to start, it is hard to put your tweaks into perspective.
For example, my first speaker project was a plop-in-the box speakerlab kit. I built the box myself. For my skills at the moment, that was a great choice. I later moved on to buying raw drivers, building my own crossovers, etc.
I think that this gain clone can be a good first project, but given my very limited budget, Ijust need to have fewer open questions before I commit my time and funds to it.
[rant]
Just to add a twist and hopefully give a different angle; I think this is the inherent nature of a forum, and also one of its major appeals - for people to ask age old questions and get personalised response in a tone of language that they can follow. It can be quite intimidating for newbie's to slog through threads that are often full of posts where people take certain understandings for granted, and leave a newbie more confused and in a rut then when they started. I've certainly done it; off course I'm not discounting that there are many lazy ***** out there, but I always try to remember this is a forum and not a book to read before sending people to the search page...
I've seen forum topics split into beginner and advanced topics before, perhaps this is an idea...
[/rant]
As for 'what is a...' questions in the chip amp context, I would have a look at the www.ampchipdiy.com forum, where the good old guys (Nuuk seems to get around ) are/have compiled a glossary of chip amp related terms.
Just to add a twist and hopefully give a different angle; I think this is the inherent nature of a forum, and also one of its major appeals - for people to ask age old questions and get personalised response in a tone of language that they can follow. It can be quite intimidating for newbie's to slog through threads that are often full of posts where people take certain understandings for granted, and leave a newbie more confused and in a rut then when they started. I've certainly done it; off course I'm not discounting that there are many lazy ***** out there, but I always try to remember this is a forum and not a book to read before sending people to the search page...
I've seen forum topics split into beginner and advanced topics before, perhaps this is an idea...
[/rant]
Absolutely! Nuuk's FAQ is undisputedly useful and one of the best places to get started, but when first going through it I was left dazed in some parts and wish I had jotted my thoughts down, but it seems perfectly explained now that I understand it.
As for 'what is a...' questions in the chip amp context, I would have a look at the www.ampchipdiy.com forum, where the good old guys (Nuuk seems to get around
) are/have compiled a glossary of chip amp related terms.If you haven't read Nuuk's site a couple times then you should...
nuuk's site
Found this on the first page of a google query "zobel network schematic"
zobel stuff
I am willing to bet that the first one you build will not be the "perfect amp".
Cost...
Brian's kit 25 bucks
Transformer 40 bucks
2 nice chunks of aluminum for heatsink free
old wood board for putting it on
pot for volume control 2 bucks to 100 bucks depending
RCA's and binding posts 15 bucks
old electric cord, some wire, solder, and fuse block
For me, I read as I built.
So these are word's of wisdom from somebody with OVER SIX MONTHS EXPERIENCE!
nuuk's site
Found this on the first page of a google query "zobel network schematic"
zobel stuff
I am willing to bet that the first one you build will not be the "perfect amp".
Cost...
Brian's kit 25 bucks
Transformer 40 bucks
2 nice chunks of aluminum for heatsink free
old wood board for putting it on
pot for volume control 2 bucks to 100 bucks depending
RCA's and binding posts 15 bucks
old electric cord, some wire, solder, and fuse block
For me, I read as I built.
So these are word's of wisdom from somebody with OVER SIX MONTHS EXPERIENCE!
I'm still close enough to being a newbie myself to know that even if everything is written down as simply as possible, there are so many things to know that you just can't take it all in easily.
Apart from the FAQ section on my site, there are tried and tested designs to follow. Don't worry too much about the difference of the designs, ie inverted, non-inverted. You can brush up on all that later. Just choose one of the simpler designs (not only on my site) that provide a lot of building information and build one of those.
I started off finding a design that was well documented, organising a parts list through my own common-sense and asking if couldn't find the spec for something myself.
Then I went through each part of the build, trying to understand how it went together, and if possible what it did before building it.
This took me months of finding out things in small chunks, trying to understand it and then, and only then buying parts and building something.
I agree, many of the answers given assume a knowledge of a subject and that is why I built the DD site and tried to explain everything very basically. But try it sometime! It is extremely time consuming to explain everything in minute detail and sometimes you just have to accept that people answering questions here do not have the time to spell things out letter-by-letter!
As Carlos points out, there are threads that cover some of your questions and if you don't understand what has been said there, ask for help.
Apart from the FAQ section on my site, there are tried and tested designs to follow. Don't worry too much about the difference of the designs, ie inverted, non-inverted. You can brush up on all that later. Just choose one of the simpler designs (not only on my site) that provide a lot of building information and build one of those.
I started off finding a design that was well documented, organising a parts list through my own common-sense and asking if couldn't find the spec for something myself.
Then I went through each part of the build, trying to understand how it went together, and if possible what it did before building it.
This took me months of finding out things in small chunks, trying to understand it and then, and only then buying parts and building something.
I agree, many of the answers given assume a knowledge of a subject and that is why I built the DD site and tried to explain everything very basically. But try it sometime! It is extremely time consuming to explain everything in minute detail and sometimes you just have to accept that people answering questions here do not have the time to spell things out letter-by-letter!
As Carlos points out, there are threads that cover some of your questions and if you don't understand what has been said there, ask for help.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.