Hi
My dear friend Stella bought a lot of stuff from PHL like me, but he did not returned it for some reasons - I guessed he liked what he heard.
However, I did not understand this choice, so after lots of arguering concerning the PHL's 15" woofers which was the only speakers I did not tested so far( read I gave up...!!!!), I borrowed a pair.
Guess what, these speakers are some of the worst sounding 15" I've ever come a cross. They beamed like hell.
In the mean time Stella borrowed a paif of pristine TAD 1602 from me. I went out with his PHL's and he did not believe my words, after.....
Yes, we did a direct comparison with the TAD and now the weakness was even more apearent.
Well, Stella decided to buy the TAD 1602 and the PHL stuff went up for sale...that's it..
I do not say, the the TAD is perfect, but in comparison to the PHL's it sure was......
Warning, even for pro audio, I can not recommend this brand.....
Thanks for your time, The TADMAN
My dear friend Stella bought a lot of stuff from PHL like me, but he did not returned it for some reasons - I guessed he liked what he heard.
However, I did not understand this choice, so after lots of arguering concerning the PHL's 15" woofers which was the only speakers I did not tested so far( read I gave up...!!!!), I borrowed a pair.
Guess what, these speakers are some of the worst sounding 15" I've ever come a cross. They beamed like hell.
In the mean time Stella borrowed a paif of pristine TAD 1602 from me. I went out with his PHL's and he did not believe my words, after.....
Yes, we did a direct comparison with the TAD and now the weakness was even more apearent.
Well, Stella decided to buy the TAD 1602 and the PHL stuff went up for sale...that's it..
I do not say, the the TAD is perfect, but in comparison to the PHL's it sure was......
Warning, even for pro audio, I can not recommend this brand.....
Thanks for your time, The TADMAN
It's been said that there's a constant and immutable ratio of Fs to cone size, per manufacturer. For PHL, that ratio is very high, especially compared with other brands. Their drivers are extremely efficient and tend to have very high and wide bandwidths. Their speakers are made for high efficiency--thin, lightweight cones--and the breakup on them makes them beam, like you say. In a PA setting, this is often desirable, because it can reduce feedback hugely.
The other thing that must be said here is that using a 15" speaker to cover frequency ranges where beaming is an issue, is a Bad Idea generally. I hope for your sake you're not trying to make a 2-way speaker with a 15" woofer. Any speaker that size, regardless of manufacturer, really needs to be crossed at or below ~500hz at the maximum.
The other thing that must be said here is that using a 15" speaker to cover frequency ranges where beaming is an issue, is a Bad Idea generally. I hope for your sake you're not trying to make a 2-way speaker with a 15" woofer. Any speaker that size, regardless of manufacturer, really needs to be crossed at or below ~500hz at the maximum.
How were they loaded? Horn length, back chamber, flare rate, throat size, mouth size? Or in a BR box? Volume, baffle size, port size, tuning? Room placement? Which model PHL?
Reason I ask I found the 5320 (1601a and 1602) to be superior sounding and more sensitive to the TADs in all respects when horn loaded, BR boxed and loaded in a Karlson coupler.
The highest I'd run any of these is 650 cycles and would use a steep low pass crossover (unless horn loaded) --
IME the TAD woofers are over rated and way over priced.
Reason I ask I found the 5320 (1601a and 1602) to be superior sounding and more sensitive to the TADs in all respects when horn loaded, BR boxed and loaded in a Karlson coupler.
The highest I'd run any of these is 650 cycles and would use a steep low pass crossover (unless horn loaded) --
IME the TAD woofers are over rated and way over priced.
HI
Model 5310 and 5380 I think. We did comparison side by side with no enclosure.
I put the 5380 in a small enclosure at approx 90 litre with a 12db LR cut off at 800 cycle.
Well, it's true that 15" is not that good at 800 cycle, but it can work out proberly. I use a JBL K2 9500 14" now with my 4002 drivers.
The sound from the PHL was like a delay on notes, proberly caused by the hard suspension and the cone. Like an old reverb. The notes was repeating each other in higher frequencies.
I also did try out the highly rated 12" from same company and this was just as bad. However, the 3451 and some of the mid 6" are ok. I would rate them 8 from 0-13
The Tad 1602 would get a 9
JBL 375 a 10
Coral M100 a 10
the TAD 4001/4002 a 11-12
the TAD 1201 a 10
the TAD 2001 a 12
the PHL 12" and 15" barely a 6
The Sony SUP-L11 a 7
JBL 2235 a 8
This is just some of the speakers I've come a cross during the years.
I still think the the PHL 15" is the worst 15" I've ever heard. That's it.
Tadman
Model 5310 and 5380 I think. We did comparison side by side with no enclosure.
I put the 5380 in a small enclosure at approx 90 litre with a 12db LR cut off at 800 cycle.
Well, it's true that 15" is not that good at 800 cycle, but it can work out proberly. I use a JBL K2 9500 14" now with my 4002 drivers.
The sound from the PHL was like a delay on notes, proberly caused by the hard suspension and the cone. Like an old reverb. The notes was repeating each other in higher frequencies.
I also did try out the highly rated 12" from same company and this was just as bad. However, the 3451 and some of the mid 6" are ok. I would rate them 8 from 0-13
The Tad 1602 would get a 9
JBL 375 a 10
Coral M100 a 10
the TAD 4001/4002 a 11-12
the TAD 1201 a 10
the TAD 2001 a 12
the PHL 12" and 15" barely a 6
The Sony SUP-L11 a 7
JBL 2235 a 8
This is just some of the speakers I've come a cross during the years.
I still think the the PHL 15" is the worst 15" I've ever heard. That's it.
Tadman
Tadman has a story to tell to all of us about taking care of our hearing!
It all started with he became an unofficial importer of PHL in Denmark, in those days he was a man in love and kept spreading the gospell with great enthusiasm about how fantastic these french drivers where.
Tadman was not only a audio enthusiast but also a tallented semi pro electric guitar player. He was used to the high SPL's from the studio and from frequent live jazz concerts where he became known for putting his ears right into the speakers to feel the full blast from those Fenders thru the 2500W amps.
To recreate this at home, without compromising his good relationship with his neighbours, was a problem.
Headphones didnt have the grunt, so he built a "ear speaker" resembling a cross between Big Benn and a gigantic headphone. This he placed behind a chair where he sat, with two 12" PHL woofers centered app. 2" from his ears, it worked fine, he couldnt hear annything above 2kHz anyway, due to his longtime, high SPL exposures.
Then one day while sitting there and listening to John Scoefield, his dog stumbled in the wires between the CD player and his 250W Citation amplifier, this unplugged the RCA's and made the amp go unstable and self destruct! The PHL survived but both his ear drums ruptured.
This was fixed at the hospital, but he also got a very unusual and strong 500Hz tinitus that agrevates with his state of mind.
One of the triggers is the sight of PHL woofers, this is what he call "the PHL howl"!! This ofcourse make him unsuited to evaluate the sound from them.
Dont mention PHL to him unless you call it: f......PHL, and dont invite him for dinner should you have some!
It all started with he became an unofficial importer of PHL in Denmark, in those days he was a man in love and kept spreading the gospell with great enthusiasm about how fantastic these french drivers where.
Tadman was not only a audio enthusiast but also a tallented semi pro electric guitar player. He was used to the high SPL's from the studio and from frequent live jazz concerts where he became known for putting his ears right into the speakers to feel the full blast from those Fenders thru the 2500W amps.
To recreate this at home, without compromising his good relationship with his neighbours, was a problem.
Headphones didnt have the grunt, so he built a "ear speaker" resembling a cross between Big Benn and a gigantic headphone. This he placed behind a chair where he sat, with two 12" PHL woofers centered app. 2" from his ears, it worked fine, he couldnt hear annything above 2kHz anyway, due to his longtime, high SPL exposures.
Then one day while sitting there and listening to John Scoefield, his dog stumbled in the wires between the CD player and his 250W Citation amplifier, this unplugged the RCA's and made the amp go unstable and self destruct! The PHL survived but both his ear drums ruptured.
This was fixed at the hospital, but he also got a very unusual and strong 500Hz tinitus that agrevates with his state of mind.
One of the triggers is the sight of PHL woofers, this is what he call "the PHL howl"!! This ofcourse make him unsuited to evaluate the sound from them.
Dont mention PHL to him unless you call it: f......PHL, and dont invite him for dinner should you have some!
roddyama said:
I heard someone say that the Rushmore uses the 5010, which PHL says is a bass driver, good from 35hz to 2000hz:
http://www.phlaudio.com/products/15inchbass.html
The 5380, which tadman is referring to is considered an extended driver, good from 60hz to 3000hz:
http://www.phlaudio.com/products/15inchext.html
The 5010 is said to be optimized for bass extension and sound quality, while the 5380 is said to be optimized for sensitivity and extension.
--
Brian
I'm a believer that not all manufacturers offer the best
drivers in their portfolio. You have to examine each driver
in detail to form a conclusion and not criticize the company
as a whole.
example;
Focal has some good and bad drivers, but the bad driver
is not an indication that all Focal drivers are bad.
The same for PHL. They have some excellent 6.5" and 8"
drivers that I tried. I also heard good things about some
of the 10". Again, specific model numbers.
There is no reason to doubt that PHL also offers drivers
that are not that good
Part of system design is to hand pick what you think is
the best driver for your application.
drivers in their portfolio. You have to examine each driver
in detail to form a conclusion and not criticize the company
as a whole.
example;
Focal has some good and bad drivers, but the bad driver
is not an indication that all Focal drivers are bad.
The same for PHL. They have some excellent 6.5" and 8"
drivers that I tried. I also heard good things about some
of the 10". Again, specific model numbers.
There is no reason to doubt that PHL also offers drivers
that are not that good
Part of system design is to hand pick what you think is
the best driver for your application.
97 db???
roddyama said:
Hi Brian,
Hi
Have not heard the 1601 and don't care really...
Yeah, I know, although I would necessarily call the 5010 inefficient at 97dbwm.
Please note that you only get 97 db in the midrange, the woofers aint for bass, unless we talk about pro audio bass....
You get 93 db bass from a 15" unless the diaphram is very heavy..you'll get less...but it will play deeper for sure...
Tadman
I have TAD 1601a's myself. I just didn't think PHL was getting a fair shake in this thread so I thought I'd add my.
so many choices, so little time....
Hi
QUOTE]Originally posted by thylantyr
I'm a believer that not all manufacturers offer the best
drivers in their portfolio. You have to examine each driver
in detail to form a conclusion and not criticize the company
as a whole.
I do not criticize the whole company, just mentioned that most of the stuff I've measured and heard was not good. However, I said that some of the mid 6" and the 3451 was ok. I've heard 4 different 6", one 8", one 10", one 12" and two 15"
I think that's quite a lot consider that I'm not a distributor.
example;
Focal has some good and bad drivers, but the bad driver
is not an indication that all Focal drivers are bad.
True...
The same for PHL. They have some excellent 6.5" and 8"
drivers that I tried. I also heard good things about some
of the 10". Again, specific model numbers.
I've heard the 8" littlebrother to the 3451 and it beamed and were not smooth at all. I told the owner and first he disbelieved me. However, he called me next day and agreed. He swapped them to a pair of 3451. I don't know it's number.
There is no reason to doubt that PHL also offers drivers
that are not that good
Sure, all speaker designs are hard. Among maybe 100 speakers, I've only found a few good. We talk about many JBL, Altec, Audax, Phl, Vitavox, Scan Speak, Vifa, B&C, Sony, Monacor etc etc...
I've come to that conclusion, that the diaphram has most of the sound in it. I do not like the coating on the 12" and 15" of PHL. I've heard a 15" ATC witha very similar diaphram and I'll correct my self, I've heard a 15" which is worse than the PHL 15", this one was for sure.
In general I'm fed up with paper and coated paper cones. Why, most of them are not smooth, but sure has an organic sound.
But I do not want things to sound similar to each other. Ex. TAD drivers can easily show the differens of a snare drum. You heard how tall it is. You heard the metal. You hear the skin. The snare, the stick of wood and most of all, all the higher notes from all parts not melting together. I like that. I'm a previous musicans and I like to hear recordings as well as instruments.
Therefore I have very few choices of woofers as well as drivers. Don't laugh, but I like the 8" Scan Speak for deep bass. They can show the really deep notes as no 15" I've heard so far, but you have to treat it right. For midrange, I guess the TAD 1201 will be my next choice in a horn with compression to live it a bit up. This speakers is incredebly smooth, but lacks a bit in openess IMO. Therefore horn and compression.
I have no recommendation for 15" speakers at all. An 8 is for me a good standard product, but not good enough for me I'm afraid.
So the PHL 3451 and the 6" midrange is ok components, but they can not show differens between real instrument in the same way as the rare beryllium. That's it.
I feel lucky to had the chance here in life to try out some of TAD's products. I feel that it's the last step in speakers, at least for me. Total reliably. They more like instrument for inputs. I like them.
Sure, sound matters on taste, but I still have not ever met any audio nut who had played an instrument decently. Most have never heard an origal mastertape as well. Sometimes it's very hard to discuss sound with such people.
Thanks, Tadman
Part of system design is to hand pick what you think is
the best driver for your application. [/QUOTE]
Hi
QUOTE]Originally posted by thylantyr
I'm a believer that not all manufacturers offer the best
drivers in their portfolio. You have to examine each driver
in detail to form a conclusion and not criticize the company
as a whole.
I do not criticize the whole company, just mentioned that most of the stuff I've measured and heard was not good. However, I said that some of the mid 6" and the 3451 was ok. I've heard 4 different 6", one 8", one 10", one 12" and two 15"
I think that's quite a lot consider that I'm not a distributor.
example;
Focal has some good and bad drivers, but the bad driver
is not an indication that all Focal drivers are bad.
True...
The same for PHL. They have some excellent 6.5" and 8"
drivers that I tried. I also heard good things about some
of the 10". Again, specific model numbers.
I've heard the 8" littlebrother to the 3451 and it beamed and were not smooth at all. I told the owner and first he disbelieved me. However, he called me next day and agreed. He swapped them to a pair of 3451. I don't know it's number.
There is no reason to doubt that PHL also offers drivers
that are not that good
Sure, all speaker designs are hard. Among maybe 100 speakers, I've only found a few good. We talk about many JBL, Altec, Audax, Phl, Vitavox, Scan Speak, Vifa, B&C, Sony, Monacor etc etc...
I've come to that conclusion, that the diaphram has most of the sound in it. I do not like the coating on the 12" and 15" of PHL. I've heard a 15" ATC witha very similar diaphram and I'll correct my self, I've heard a 15" which is worse than the PHL 15", this one was for sure.
In general I'm fed up with paper and coated paper cones. Why, most of them are not smooth, but sure has an organic sound.
But I do not want things to sound similar to each other. Ex. TAD drivers can easily show the differens of a snare drum. You heard how tall it is. You heard the metal. You hear the skin. The snare, the stick of wood and most of all, all the higher notes from all parts not melting together. I like that. I'm a previous musicans and I like to hear recordings as well as instruments.
Therefore I have very few choices of woofers as well as drivers. Don't laugh, but I like the 8" Scan Speak for deep bass. They can show the really deep notes as no 15" I've heard so far, but you have to treat it right. For midrange, I guess the TAD 1201 will be my next choice in a horn with compression to live it a bit up. This speakers is incredebly smooth, but lacks a bit in openess IMO. Therefore horn and compression.
I have no recommendation for 15" speakers at all. An 8 is for me a good standard product, but not good enough for me I'm afraid.
So the PHL 3451 and the 6" midrange is ok components, but they can not show differens between real instrument in the same way as the rare beryllium. That's it.
I feel lucky to had the chance here in life to try out some of TAD's products. I feel that it's the last step in speakers, at least for me. Total reliably. They more like instrument for inputs. I like them.
Sure, sound matters on taste, but I still have not ever met any audio nut who had played an instrument decently. Most have never heard an origal mastertape as well. Sometimes it's very hard to discuss sound with such people.
Thanks, Tadman
Part of system design is to hand pick what you think is
the best driver for your application. [/QUOTE]
Look on the bright side, there are many bad sounding drivers
'out of the box' from big name companies, but this doesn't
discourage the system designers from using them because
they usually develop filters to tame the beast.
When selecting speakers it comes down to choosing
the lesser of the evils because nothing is perfect and it
it was perfect I'm sure someone will not like it either because
it's human nature to have different tastes in sound reproduction.
'out of the box' from big name companies, but this doesn't
discourage the system designers from using them because
they usually develop filters to tame the beast.
When selecting speakers it comes down to choosing
the lesser of the evils because nothing is perfect and it
it was perfect I'm sure someone will not like it either because
it's human nature to have different tastes in sound reproduction.
Audax ht210
Well, the Audax is also made by Phillipe Lesage and had great reputation for a decade or two.
I tried out the cheap and lousy looking Audax HT210 once. Quess what, it aint bad and it's very very cheap. I like cheap things playing good and sometimes you're just lucky. What I do not like is overrated things which are expensive.
Tadman
michaelpage26 said:
Well, the Audax is also made by Phillipe Lesage and had great reputation for a decade or two.
I tried out the cheap and lousy looking Audax HT210 once. Quess what, it aint bad and it's very very cheap. I like cheap things playing good and sometimes you're just lucky. What I do not like is overrated things which are expensive.
Tadman
10" TAD
Well, Tad makes two 10" which are sold as 11" due to frame I guess.
I had the 1102 for a year and this speaker is unbelievely good for most. However, as you probably know, higher sensetivity will cause a more open sound. The 1102 will lack in this area due to 92-93 db, but it plays pretty deep with an enclouse of 80-100 litre and a tube amp (works as a resistor).
This speaker is very very smooth and voice production is in leage for itself.
Regarding realism for cello, I'll state this...you need large diaphram area to get a true realism even on small instruments like a violin. A cello aint small and you need to remember that's it's basically a resonant enclosure and you need to reproduce it.
If your room is small, I can sure recommend this speaker.
The 1101 I've not heard even that I like to. I think the diaphram is pretty interesting due to reinforced kevlar fibre.
The 1201 can easily make realisme with a good bass driver below. No problem.
Tadman
michaelpage26 said:
Well, Tad makes two 10" which are sold as 11" due to frame I guess.
I had the 1102 for a year and this speaker is unbelievely good for most. However, as you probably know, higher sensetivity will cause a more open sound. The 1102 will lack in this area due to 92-93 db, but it plays pretty deep with an enclouse of 80-100 litre and a tube amp (works as a resistor).
This speaker is very very smooth and voice production is in leage for itself.
Regarding realism for cello, I'll state this...you need large diaphram area to get a true realism even on small instruments like a violin. A cello aint small and you need to remember that's it's basically a resonant enclosure and you need to reproduce it.
If your room is small, I can sure recommend this speaker.
The 1101 I've not heard even that I like to. I think the diaphram is pretty interesting due to reinforced kevlar fibre.
The 1201 can easily make realisme with a good bass driver below. No problem.
Tadman
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