Hi all,
a friend of mine is a violin maker. So we often discuss acoustics, design and measurements. I'd like to share some thoughts I got from this.
Apparently a violin maker attempts to build the violin body in such a way that all 12 demi-tones that make up an octave are represented equally in the resonance pattern of the fundamental.
Also, the overtones (harmonics) created by the violin, are being considered up to the 20th to 25th by a violin maker. The "medium harmonics" in the range of the 10th to 15th or so (!!!) are being considered the key as to why classic Italian violins sound so good - they have more of these medium harmonics. A violin with more medium harmonics is also said to carry the sound farther inside a concert hall. Note that they apparently don't always sound so good to the musician himself, the quality is only apparent from a distance.
My own thoughts as related to consequences for speaker and amplifier design:
- some speaker designers have attempted to build speakers like musical instruments, accepting and shaping resonance signatures of the speaker rather than just trying to eliminate them. The Pass Rushmore comes to mind. I'd be curious what strategies, say, Nelson Pass and his people, have followed in the Rushmore design.
- in the same vein, it occurred to me that tube amp folks often claim their amps sound "loud enough" even with a low wattage. This could be related somehow to the above harmonic structure for those violins that "carry farther". I could imagine that an instrument / speaker / amp that produces a lot of say, 8 to 12th harmonics from a mid frequency fundamental, would sound "louder" than it really is - the 10th harmonic of a 440 Hz tone would be at 4400 Hz and squarely in the ear's most sensitive range. The distortion would make the amp sound louder.
- But SE tube amps are also reputed to sound especially musical, and Pass Labs' Alephs as well. For this, low order even harmonics have been quoted responsible, since both are SE designs.
Now, the proponents of very low distortion amps have pointed out that both SE tube amps and Pass Alephs do have distortion of pretty much all harmonics and fairly evenly so, starting from a strong 2nd harmonic of course.
From all the above it would rather seem that "musicality" may be related to an evenly spaced and balanced demitone characteristic in the distortion signature of an amp or speaker.
It would appear that it's evenly strong wideband harmonics that make an amp/speaker sound musical, and not just a strong 2nd harmonic.
It would appear that midrange high order distortion would make an amp/speaker sound louder...
And it would appear that in an amp/speaker that *doesn't* sound musical, the problem lies not so much in overall low harmonic distortion (duh), or in the presence of high order harmonics per se (to which I see it usually attributed), but in "unnatural gaps" in the harmonic spectrum...
Any thoughts?
a friend of mine is a violin maker. So we often discuss acoustics, design and measurements. I'd like to share some thoughts I got from this.
Apparently a violin maker attempts to build the violin body in such a way that all 12 demi-tones that make up an octave are represented equally in the resonance pattern of the fundamental.
Also, the overtones (harmonics) created by the violin, are being considered up to the 20th to 25th by a violin maker. The "medium harmonics" in the range of the 10th to 15th or so (!!!) are being considered the key as to why classic Italian violins sound so good - they have more of these medium harmonics. A violin with more medium harmonics is also said to carry the sound farther inside a concert hall. Note that they apparently don't always sound so good to the musician himself, the quality is only apparent from a distance.
My own thoughts as related to consequences for speaker and amplifier design:
- some speaker designers have attempted to build speakers like musical instruments, accepting and shaping resonance signatures of the speaker rather than just trying to eliminate them. The Pass Rushmore comes to mind. I'd be curious what strategies, say, Nelson Pass and his people, have followed in the Rushmore design.
- in the same vein, it occurred to me that tube amp folks often claim their amps sound "loud enough" even with a low wattage. This could be related somehow to the above harmonic structure for those violins that "carry farther". I could imagine that an instrument / speaker / amp that produces a lot of say, 8 to 12th harmonics from a mid frequency fundamental, would sound "louder" than it really is - the 10th harmonic of a 440 Hz tone would be at 4400 Hz and squarely in the ear's most sensitive range. The distortion would make the amp sound louder.
- But SE tube amps are also reputed to sound especially musical, and Pass Labs' Alephs as well. For this, low order even harmonics have been quoted responsible, since both are SE designs.
Now, the proponents of very low distortion amps have pointed out that both SE tube amps and Pass Alephs do have distortion of pretty much all harmonics and fairly evenly so, starting from a strong 2nd harmonic of course.
From all the above it would rather seem that "musicality" may be related to an evenly spaced and balanced demitone characteristic in the distortion signature of an amp or speaker.
It would appear that it's evenly strong wideband harmonics that make an amp/speaker sound musical, and not just a strong 2nd harmonic.
It would appear that midrange high order distortion would make an amp/speaker sound louder...
And it would appear that in an amp/speaker that *doesn't* sound musical, the problem lies not so much in overall low harmonic distortion (duh), or in the presence of high order harmonics per se (to which I see it usually attributed), but in "unnatural gaps" in the harmonic spectrum...
Any thoughts?
Just some thoughts. If it is true, as you say, that the instrument
would sound much different close-up than heard from some
distance, this might give one further clue to why close-up
microphones sound so bad (well, bad in my and many others
opinion, that is). Violins are particularly sensitive to this,
I think. Strings sound very harsh on many modern recordings.
A similar but still different case is when an opera singer uses
a deliberate vibrato to make the voice carry through better.
I don't know if they can really sing louder that way or if it
just creates an illusion of being louder. Some overdo it, of
course, or don't intend it in the first place.
Hm, would this
mean we would prefer wow and flutter on a TT? Guess not.
would sound much different close-up than heard from some
distance, this might give one further clue to why close-up
microphones sound so bad (well, bad in my and many others
opinion, that is). Violins are particularly sensitive to this,
I think. Strings sound very harsh on many modern recordings.
A similar but still different case is when an opera singer uses
a deliberate vibrato to make the voice carry through better.
I don't know if they can really sing louder that way or if it
just creates an illusion of being louder. Some overdo it, of
course, or don't intend it in the first place.
Hm, would thismean we would prefer wow and flutter on a TT? Guess not.
"- some speaker designers have attempted to build speakers like musical instruments, accepting and shaping resonance signatures of the speaker rather than just trying to eliminate them. The Pass Rushmore comes to mind. I'd be curious what strategies, say, Nelson Pass and his people, have followed in the Rushmore design.
"
i doubt. i speaker with stone front is dead compared to an instrument, no harmonics. they use some bended wood or so like seen in some pianos, but that does not mean anything for the sound. it will not be piano like.
"
i doubt. i speaker with stone front is dead compared to an instrument, no harmonics. they use some bended wood or so like seen in some pianos, but that does not mean anything for the sound. it will not be piano like.
Just to clarify, I also still think it's best to have a well damped speaker with low overall resonance, and an amp with low total distortion. Given that some distortion will remain though, I start suspecting that the "balance" of the distortion could account for the "pleasant" or "unpleasant" signature of this speaker/amp vs. that speaker/amp.
For instance Nelson Pass has often said on this forums that when developing amps the best sounding point is often not the point of lowest overall distortion.
About close miking: yes I thought the same thing. And apparently an inexperienced musician will often find an exceptional instrument quite unremarkable at first, because at close range the quality doesn't come through.
About singing: My cousin claims that in his singing class the teacher would tell him he sounds at his best, at a point when he himself can't really "hear himself" or thinks it sounds unremarkable.
It's funnay also how you read comments about well regarded amps or speakers some time when people claim they sound boring or unremarkable at first, until you discover they just sound "right", and don't overemphasize some aspect of music in any spectacular way.
But the point of my post was mostly an inquiry into why some equipment is deemed musical and some isn't when total distortion measurements are similarly low, or why equipment with higher distortion can sound better.
For instance Nelson Pass has often said on this forums that when developing amps the best sounding point is often not the point of lowest overall distortion.
About close miking: yes I thought the same thing. And apparently an inexperienced musician will often find an exceptional instrument quite unremarkable at first, because at close range the quality doesn't come through.
About singing: My cousin claims that in his singing class the teacher would tell him he sounds at his best, at a point when he himself can't really "hear himself" or thinks it sounds unremarkable.
It's funnay also how you read comments about well regarded amps or speakers some time when people claim they sound boring or unremarkable at first, until you discover they just sound "right", and don't overemphasize some aspect of music in any spectacular way.
But the point of my post was mostly an inquiry into why some equipment is deemed musical and some isn't when total distortion measurements are similarly low, or why equipment with higher distortion can sound better.
MBK said:
I'm aware of this "bad at close distance but good at far", but when singing using microphone I believe that we use what we hear as a "feedback". If I hear an unremarkable sound then I will try to "manipulate" my tounge (or anything) to make it remarkable. or should I do otherwise?
D)I still believe it is the transient (among other thing such as even harmonic). I don't know what this is theoritically, but when my ears can hear something as if a jet plane is passing my ears anytime an instrument is hit (or even when a burst of pressured air comes out of the throat), I believe that is what musical is all about. The system (eg the loudspeaker) has the ability to produce 2 different tones with ease, such that it doesn't sound "flat".
Oh Boy! Is that ever a sight for sore ears!MBK said:
Just five days ago I got me a pair of little Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 speakers that I had been hankering after for ages. Now the trouble is, I have spent absolutely ages listening to speakers ranging all the way from grade Z junk to middle-of-the-road hobby shop stuff. No decent speakers for me. 
I drove them with a clean sounding class A amp and they would give a surprisingly enjoyable result considering how cheap they were. What's more, I grew completely accustomed to this kind of sound. Now I have these Wharfedale things
they sound as boring all get-out. What a dissapointment! 
Trouble is, I have almost no experience listening to live music and now I am probaby hearing it a lot more like it originally sounded. What's a person to do??? 
Circlotron said:
Now I have these Wharfedale things
Go to live concerts to get accustomed to the "right" sound,
of course.
Circlotron said:
Trouble is, I have almost no experience listening to live music and now I am probaby hearing it a lot more like it originally sounded. What's a person to do???
It's really a pain but a good pair of headphone cans (Sennheiser HD580 has the best price/quality factor) might help to decide how things should sound.
In India...
A very interesting thread...
I have read somewhere in this very forum, that once the human ear gets used to a particular sound, it stops noticing the defects in it, and that kind of adaptation takes a mere couple of hours of listening. May be this would explain why even the bad speakers/amps sound good sometimes to some people.
In India, it is usual for commercial speaker manufacturers to put in a peak in amp/speaker frequency response around 10 KHz. The manufacturers would explain it as "Indian taste". Many singers of Indian music (some of whom gained national repute) , alter their voicing to the point of sounding squeaky, i.e., don't sing with their natural voice. Even the recordings of Indian film music are done in such a way, that they are very bright by european standards. If a typical Indian (I am not speaking of those who have some knowledge about sound) is given an audition of a pair of very flat sounding audiophile speakers, it is very likely that he finds them dull and boring, and is unlikely to find them "musical".
May be things like distortion, brightness, harshness etc., do not matter with respect to musicality upto a certain threshold. It is all in "getting used" to the sound.
A very interesting thread...
I have read somewhere in this very forum, that once the human ear gets used to a particular sound, it stops noticing the defects in it, and that kind of adaptation takes a mere couple of hours of listening. May be this would explain why even the bad speakers/amps sound good sometimes to some people.
In India, it is usual for commercial speaker manufacturers to put in a peak in amp/speaker frequency response around 10 KHz. The manufacturers would explain it as "Indian taste". Many singers of Indian music (some of whom gained national repute) , alter their voicing to the point of sounding squeaky, i.e., don't sing with their natural voice. Even the recordings of Indian film music are done in such a way, that they are very bright by european standards. If a typical Indian (I am not speaking of those who have some knowledge about sound) is given an audition of a pair of very flat sounding audiophile speakers, it is very likely that he finds them dull and boring, and is unlikely to find them "musical".
May be things like distortion, brightness, harshness etc., do not matter with respect to musicality upto a certain threshold. It is all in "getting used" to the sound.
Definitely, we get used to particular sound signatures, and I have noticed for myself the most reliable indicator for a positive change in my system is my gut reaction to the first seconds playing. After that I get too much used to it and I have to start "analyzing rationally" which leads straight down to the hell of "rationalization" .
But the aim of a good system should still be undistorted sound, or at least, an "even" or "neutral" kind of distortion that doesn't affect certain aspects only. Maybe this is the message here...
.But the aim of a good system should still be undistorted sound, or at least, an "even" or "neutral" kind of distortion that doesn't affect certain aspects only. Maybe this is the message here...
Kpsv
I agree, I once did sound for an Asian music festival in London, and was shocked by what the headline act's sound guy did to the graphics as soon as he arrived on site...But the punters loved it!
Circlotron,
I sympathise with your predicament, it is very easy if you have no references for the mind to get acclimatised to one particular sound. This happens in all the human senses and is of great evolutionary and survival benefit.
The only answer I'm afraid, is to get out more to live music, or (the preferred option ), just build lots more speakers so you have a contrast!
I agree, I once did sound for an Asian music festival in London, and was shocked by what the headline act's sound guy did to the graphics as soon as he arrived on site...But the punters loved it!
Circlotron,
I sympathise with your predicament, it is very easy if you have no references for the mind to get acclimatised to one particular sound. This happens in all the human senses and is of great evolutionary and survival benefit.
The only answer I'm afraid, is to get out more to live music, or (the preferred option
), just build lots more speakers so you have a contrast!
Indian sound.
I know what you mean with regards to the indian sound with more high frequencies.
There is an even more extreme sound though.......
In the middle east some radio and/or TV stations seem to love the sound of distortion. The kind that that sounds like a square wave is mixed in which gives ALOT of upper harmonics. They also love the sound of overloaded close microfoning, this has the same sound.
I think this is where it all started. To this day many parts of the middle east are not devoloped like the west. Many people have grown up listening to with the sound of cheap equipment and cheap overdriven horn megaphones on mosks to comunicate to the people. I guess this is why they still like this kind ove sound.
I must say though that these parts of the world are much more in touch with their music than the west. Im talking street music here, not recording contracts.
The west has "moved on" to other things regretably.
I guess little distortion (harmonics) can add some "spice" to the music. Like the well ballanced distortion of a tube amplifier also is said to sound more pleasing.
Coolin
I know what you mean with regards to the indian sound with more high frequencies.
There is an even more extreme sound though.......
In the middle east some radio and/or TV stations seem to love the sound of distortion. The kind that that sounds like a square wave is mixed in which gives ALOT of upper harmonics. They also love the sound of overloaded close microfoning, this has the same sound.
I think this is where it all started. To this day many parts of the middle east are not devoloped like the west. Many people have grown up listening to with the sound of cheap equipment and cheap overdriven horn megaphones on mosks to comunicate to the people. I guess this is why they still like this kind ove sound.
I must say though that these parts of the world are much more in touch with their music than the west. Im talking street music here, not recording contracts.
The west has "moved on" to other things regretably.
I guess little distortion (harmonics) can add some "spice" to the music. Like the well ballanced distortion of a tube amplifier also is said to sound more pleasing.
Coolin
Rocky,
Funny you should mention the Proac 2.5, I was just going to mention this myself. We've been attempting to clone the damn thing for many years before the proper design came to us by chance (see the clone website). Whether one may agree with the ethics of cloning or not, 3 years later after the clone website was going people have commented over whether bracing the cabinet is benificial or not.
Anyway one gentleman from Italy who cloned the thing well before anyone did commented that he built 2 versions, one heavily braced with 25mm side walls and one as standard with no bracing and thinner walls. His conclusion was the non-braced thinner walled version was much more musical and didn't sound as cold as the other one. This experiment may just apply to this particular design.
By the way the commercial Proac 2.5 came in braced and unbraced models, but the bracing was minimal, just a 50mm thick bracing side wall to side wall cleaverly housed around the port.
Funny you should mention the Proac 2.5, I was just going to mention this myself. We've been attempting to clone the damn thing for many years before the proper design came to us by chance (see the clone website). Whether one may agree with the ethics of cloning or not, 3 years later after the clone website was going people have commented over whether bracing the cabinet is benificial or not.
Anyway one gentleman from Italy who cloned the thing well before anyone did commented that he built 2 versions, one heavily braced with 25mm side walls and one as standard with no bracing and thinner walls. His conclusion was the non-braced thinner walled version was much more musical and didn't sound as cold as the other one. This experiment may just apply to this particular design.
By the way the commercial Proac 2.5 came in braced and unbraced models, but the bracing was minimal, just a 50mm thick bracing side wall to side wall cleaverly housed around the port.
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