Hi,
I have a pair of NS1000m (s) but am aware that they are "old" with unobtainable parts. I love the dynamic midrange.
I perceive that the large magnet, and hard dome are the primary contributors to the efficiency and transparency.
Therefore in the 21st century, are there any drivers which offer similar performance, particularly embodying the qualities that I think the NS1000 mid excel at:
dynamics / transients
transparency
efficiency
My ongoing search for the perfect mid lead me to acquiring some ceramic magnet 5" Accutons, but they are not particularly efficient.
Budget: ideally less than £100 each, but flexible, current ish production.
I have multiple speaker projects on the go at present, mostly waiting for my time and workshop to be finished, (almost is!!!) so this is a slow moving request...
Thank you for humoring me in my quest for the perfect mid.
Current speaker projects for the curios:
Shackman based 2 way. Parts acquired.
Bozak homage, Bandor 2" and Monitor Audio 10" bass (active, current drive) in Goodmans Magnum box! parts aquired.
monster LX5... Linaeum tweeters, Accuton mid Kef B139 bass (4 per side). parts acquired.
Serviceable 3 way monitor / NS1000 clone. still in the thought phase.
I have a pair of NS1000m (s) but am aware that they are "old" with unobtainable parts. I love the dynamic midrange.
I perceive that the large magnet, and hard dome are the primary contributors to the efficiency and transparency.
Therefore in the 21st century, are there any drivers which offer similar performance, particularly embodying the qualities that I think the NS1000 mid excel at:
dynamics / transients
transparency
efficiency
My ongoing search for the perfect mid lead me to acquiring some ceramic magnet 5" Accutons, but they are not particularly efficient.
Budget: ideally less than £100 each, but flexible, current ish production.
I have multiple speaker projects on the go at present, mostly waiting for my time and workshop to be finished, (almost is!!!) so this is a slow moving request...
Thank you for humoring me in my quest for the perfect mid.
Current speaker projects for the curios:
Shackman based 2 way. Parts acquired.
Bozak homage, Bandor 2" and Monitor Audio 10" bass (active, current drive) in Goodmans Magnum box! parts aquired.
monster LX5... Linaeum tweeters, Accuton mid Kef B139 bass (4 per side). parts acquired.
Serviceable 3 way monitor / NS1000 clone. still in the thought phase.
And therein lies your problem. You see, if the Be dome mid that's used in your NS-1000m's were available for sale today, it would probably retail at around £500 at least.
Also, bearing in mind that you seek "dynamics / transients, transparency and efficiency", I might suggest a horn-loaded compression driver. But then again, the few really good ones that are truly transparent don't come cheap.
I use a JBL 2450 modified with a replacement 4" Be diaphragm, on a custom-built radial hypex horn. Total budget for this is £1,500+600+600 = £2700 each.
Alas, top-shelf quality isn't cheap. If I were in your shoes, I'd think long and hard about refurbishing your NS-1000m's instead. New film capacitors, for instance, need not cost the Earth, and would breathe new life into what is already an excellent speaker. It would be very tough to better it, and I think IMPOSSIBLE to do so without spending BIG money.
Marco
Hi HBC,
I think your asking for a lot in your budget, especially for a 3 way.
I wouldn't get stuck on using Be drivers either. Modern tweets and midranges are really very good. But if you try to use even mid-range parts, I could see you blowing your budget just on the tweeter + midrange, not including woofer , crossover, cabinetry.
My suggestion really is to buy used and consider Troel's crossover upgrade kit.
Also, have you ever designed a speaker before? A 3way is twice as difficult as a 2 way speaker, if not more. You should look for complete kits, not a new system.
Best,
E
I think your asking for a lot in your budget, especially for a 3 way.
I wouldn't get stuck on using Be drivers either. Modern tweets and midranges are really very good. But if you try to use even mid-range parts, I could see you blowing your budget just on the tweeter + midrange, not including woofer , crossover, cabinetry.
My suggestion really is to buy used and consider Troel's crossover upgrade kit.
Also, have you ever designed a speaker before? A 3way is twice as difficult as a 2 way speaker, if not more. You should look for complete kits, not a new system.
Best,
E
I had the Eton 3-400 in small sealed directly against the Yamaha dome
Both 3" direct radiator. (eton is titanium dome and has a unknown material for the dust cap)
Eton is obsolete but still available at some retailler
Test were fully active with small EQ to make flat from 400-3k
-3 peoples with me to "judge" subjectively
Result, unanimous, the eton slayed the old 3" dome...
More retrieved details, more dynamic and uniform (less EQ needed)
In their more normal use, the eton could do 250-300hz and the Yahama can't. On the other side, the Yam can play higher than the eton (Eton 7Khz breakup produce distortion down to 3.5K and max the eton can do is 3Khz on a steep filter)
Mind you that the max spl of both those small radiator is limited.
I whish I had bought 2 etons for doing a MTM in my main room. Still have them in my 2nd system and they may stay there for very long...
YMMV
Both 3" direct radiator. (eton is titanium dome and has a unknown material for the dust cap)
Eton is obsolete but still available at some retailler
Test were fully active with small EQ to make flat from 400-3k
-3 peoples with me to "judge" subjectively
Result, unanimous, the eton slayed the old 3" dome...
More retrieved details, more dynamic and uniform (less EQ needed)
In their more normal use, the eton could do 250-300hz and the Yahama can't. On the other side, the Yam can play higher than the eton (Eton 7Khz breakup produce distortion down to 3.5K and max the eton can do is 3Khz on a steep filter)
Mind you that the max spl of both those small radiator is limited.
I whish I had bought 2 etons for doing a MTM in my main room. Still have them in my 2nd system and they may stay there for very long...
YMMV
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etalon,
I'm really not surprised. I mean the Be drivers are legendary for the time, but motors, dome construction and surround technology have all advanced considerably since then.
Taking a look at the tweeter for instance, that top octave response is bettered by a number of inexpensive dome and ring radiators.
Best,
E
I'm really not surprised. I mean the Be drivers are legendary for the time, but motors, dome construction and surround technology have all advanced considerably since then.
Taking a look at the tweeter for instance, that top octave response is bettered by a number of inexpensive dome and ring radiators.
Best,
E
Thanks, I am aware of the Troels mods, and slightly circumspect about them. Was a bit disappointed actually when I realised I was not meant to "diy" it and he wanted me to splash for an upgrade kit (more than I paid for the speakers). I am quite keen to keep the ns1000s stock, as a reference.
I am aware that I am asking a lot / the impossible, but these are interesting times, and there are all sorts of drivers out there of varying costs and qualities. I also know designing speakers is a serious black art. I find my self at a place where I can tinker more with better toys than in the past. Still like a bargain though.
So I am sure there are drivers that would be "similar" enough I could, for testing purposes, just drop in to the ns1000. I am running the mid pot at -3dB at the moment.
When I first got the ns1000s I thought the mids were fried, and I swapped one for an old Philips tube reel to reel speaker, that I always liked. Unfortunately for that experiment it was the home brew crossovers that someone had tried to upgrade with, that were the problem, and all the Yamaha drivers were fine!!!
The Visaton DSM 50 FFL, keeps popping up as a possible although only 2" and also Dayton Audio RS52AN-8.
I am aware that I am asking a lot / the impossible, but these are interesting times, and there are all sorts of drivers out there of varying costs and qualities. I also know designing speakers is a serious black art. I find my self at a place where I can tinker more with better toys than in the past. Still like a bargain though.
So I am sure there are drivers that would be "similar" enough I could, for testing purposes, just drop in to the ns1000. I am running the mid pot at -3dB at the moment.
When I first got the ns1000s I thought the mids were fried, and I swapped one for an old Philips tube reel to reel speaker, that I always liked. Unfortunately for that experiment it was the home brew crossovers that someone had tried to upgrade with, that were the problem, and all the Yamaha drivers were fine!!!
The Visaton DSM 50 FFL, keeps popping up as a possible although only 2" and also Dayton Audio RS52AN-8.
My favorite budget tweeters are the Vifa XT25 line. Same as the Scanspeak. They perform really really well, and better than some mid-range Be tweeters. Certainly better than used in some current French uber speakers.
Also I hear very good thing about the Discovery mid range drivers as well.
Best,
E
Also I hear very good thing about the Discovery mid range drivers as well.
Best,
E
Oooh, actually... how about the Peerless mid-woofers? Make excellent mid ranges. Something in this range:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-woofers/peerless-ppb-830870-4-poly-cone-woofer/
The motors are really exceptional bargains, any version of this would do really well as a mid that could keep up with a 10-12" woofer.
They used to make a woven fiberglass line, same motor.
I think this mid/woofer + XT25 + good woofer will easily exceed the original NS1000. Maybe a little tight in dispersion though.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-woofers/peerless-ppb-830870-4-poly-cone-woofer/
The motors are really exceptional bargains, any version of this would do really well as a mid that could keep up with a 10-12" woofer.
They used to make a woven fiberglass line, same motor.
I think this mid/woofer + XT25 + good woofer will easily exceed the original NS1000. Maybe a little tight in dispersion though.
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The Dayton RS-52 is a very nice dome midrange, but you have to protect it: it sounds clean within its limits, but terrible when those limits are exceeded. IMO, the Yamaha midrange is what makes the NS1000 sing. I don't believe that the Dayton can compete, especially when it comes to dynamics. Many have suggested that the woofer is nothing special. I'm not sure if that is true, though. In the NS1000 implementation it is also curtailed, and it does not do enough to draw attention to itself. Its Thiele/Small parameters suggest that it is suited to bass reflex loading (there is an aftermarket modification that uses the hole for the binding post cup as part of the port to convert it to BR).
As for the tweeter: surprisingly, I found it to be ordinary in performance. Most budget tweeters will actually work in its place, due to the high crossover frequency. And they would give you that extra high frequency extension. Strangely, though, I had no clue that it has an early roll-off until I measured it.
If I were to describe the NS1000s, the first words that would come to mind would be detail/resolution and dynamics. Today, if I wanted to achieve those characteristics, I'd look to pro style drivers.
As for the tweeter: surprisingly, I found it to be ordinary in performance. Most budget tweeters will actually work in its place, due to the high crossover frequency. And they would give you that extra high frequency extension. Strangely, though, I had no clue that it has an early roll-off until I measured it.
If I were to describe the NS1000s, the first words that would come to mind would be detail/resolution and dynamics. Today, if I wanted to achieve those characteristics, I'd look to pro style drivers.
Oooh, actually... how about the Peerless mid-woofers? Make excellent mid ranges. Something in this range:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-woofers/peerless-ppb-830870-4-poly-cone-woofer/
The motors are really exceptional bargains, any version of this would do really well as a mid that could keep up with a 10-12" woofer.
They used to make a woven fiberglass line, same motor.
I think this mid/woofer + XT25 + good woofer will easily exceed the original NS1000. Maybe a little tight in dispersion though.
From personal experience, I can testify that driver is not very good, with poor definition of midrange and "submerged" vocals. I tried many different enclosure and crossover configurations over a period of YEARS and could never get the vocals to come out of the enclosure. It's just a bad driver, and not a good substitute for the NS1000M.
The Peerless NE123W-08, on the other hand, is an excellent driver, with amazing detail retrieval and beautiful vocal projection. I think it might be one of the best midranges available. I bet it would fill the midrange gap very nicely in NS1000M's, which I owned just after they were introduced in mid-70's.
Peace,
Tom E
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The driver I recommended is a better design in every respect. Among equivalent designs, cone material is a crucial factor. I would never consider using another poly cone mid. Fiberglass or kevlar might be okay, paper/wood probably the best. Metal would require complex crossover to trap ringing, but otherwise could be good.
Midrange is the most important driver, and it is the one that can least be judged by freq response curves. It just doesn't provide enough information about the actual sound of the driver. Smooth curve does not always equal beautiful sound.
Peace,
Tom E