Hey everyone,
I'm currently building a pair of small BRs for a pair of 10Ps and someone I know wants me to build a couple of fullrangers for them. I'm wondering which enclosure gets the best low end response out of a pair of 12Ps.
I've been looking at the Pensil series (they seem about the right size) but can't seem to find any technical specifications for either the standard or super Pensil 12.2P. Does anyone know how low F3 is for these enclosures?
Will they go lower than Bob Brines A12-M12?
I'm currently building a pair of small BRs for a pair of 10Ps and someone I know wants me to build a couple of fullrangers for them. I'm wondering which enclosure gets the best low end response out of a pair of 12Ps.
I've been looking at the Pensil series (they seem about the right size) but can't seem to find any technical specifications for either the standard or super Pensil 12.2P. Does anyone know how low F3 is for these enclosures?
Will they go lower than Bob Brines A12-M12?
Monty,
Surprising as it may sound, the Alp 10.x (both metal and paper) go lower than the Alp 12P. The Alp 12P sounds more dynamic and is a tad more efficient.
Regarding M12-A12 and Super Pensil, IIRC they both go into the 40s in room; very close - the SP might have a bit more gain in the mid bass, the M12-A12 slight edge on the low end... The M12-A12 footprint is much smaller and from memory, slightly more forward sounding. The Super Pensil 12.2P was a tad more laid back with the stuffing that I had, and quite a sizeable cabinet.
Surprising as it may sound, the Alp 10.x (both metal and paper) go lower than the Alp 12P. The Alp 12P sounds more dynamic and is a tad more efficient.
Regarding M12-A12 and Super Pensil, IIRC they both go into the 40s in room; very close - the SP might have a bit more gain in the mid bass, the M12-A12 slight edge on the low end... The M12-A12 footprint is much smaller and from memory, slightly more forward sounding. The Super Pensil 12.2P was a tad more laid back with the stuffing that I had, and quite a sizeable cabinet.
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Yeah I was thinking about simply using another pair of 10Ps but the person I'm going to build these speakers for likes to listen on the louder side of moderate levels and also likes full orchestral music.
I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that the 12P could better handle louder and more musically complex programme material better than the 10P due to its larger size which meant less excursion and therefore less FM distortion.
I'm really looking for a number here in terms of which enclosure could better reproduce 42Hz (the lowest note in orchestral music).
I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that the 12P could better handle louder and more musically complex programme material better than the 10P due to its larger size which meant less excursion and therefore less FM distortion.
I'm really looking for a number here in terms of which enclosure could better reproduce 42Hz (the lowest note in orchestral music).
Monty,
Does something like the Avebury agree with you?
Woden Design | Avebury
Dave can comment on the performance of Woden back-loaded horns; I haven't listened to any of these.
Does something like the Avebury agree with you?
Woden Design | Avebury
Dave can comment on the performance of Woden back-loaded horns; I haven't listened to any of these.
Could you explain how F3 is meaningless?
The Wodens look cool but they're way too big. I don't want to build a pair of marriage destroyers!
In terms of F10 then what's the best cabinet. Can the 10P Pensil outperform the 12P in terms of low frequency performance?
To be honest I don't really understand how these enclosures work, I can't seem to find any explanations online. In a BR the 12P manages a 60Hz F3 at best. How do these enclosures manage to get lower?
In this application power isn't too big a constraint (75W RMS PC available). Just wondering whether to choose the 12P or 10P now .
The Wodens look cool but they're way too big. I don't want to build a pair of marriage destroyers!
In terms of F10 then what's the best cabinet. Can the 10P Pensil outperform the 12P in terms of low frequency performance?
To be honest I don't really understand how these enclosures work, I can't seem to find any explanations online. In a BR the 12P manages a 60Hz F3 at best. How do these enclosures manage to get lower?
In this application power isn't too big a constraint (75W RMS PC available). Just wondering whether to choose the 12P or 10P now
.
Meaningless wrt what we hear… Toole showed that with scientific experiment.
And analytically it does nottell us anything… take a reflex box and a sealed bix with same F3, the sealed box goes considerably lower as it is rolling off much slower. The shape of the roll-off is important.
Much more useful to use F6 and F10.
3dB (F3) is "just noticeable". F10 is half the volume.
dave
In an optimum reflex or sealed cabinet. A10.3 goes lowest… but they are real close, it is not really a prime driver of choice.
They are ML-TLs. They use a quarter-wave resonance to maximize bass.
Just wondering whether to choose the 12P or 10P now
My opionion is that A12p will give you louder, A10p will give better (more DDR). But both are good. No bad choices.
dave
Hmm... I have 75W to play with so power isn't a major concern here (at least for the listening environment). I'm eyeing the Pensils so it's really a case of which driver performs better in it's respective pensil enclosure in terms of bass response and FM distortion specifically.
I also noticed the width of the Pensil 10P is 240mm, which after building my own 10P desktop BRs a couple of months ago seems perfectly sized to match the baffle step rolloff to the drivers own boost around 470Hz. Is there any way the Pensil 12P corrects the baffle step?
What do you mean by more DDR?
Thanks for helping!
I also noticed the width of the Pensil 10P is 240mm, which after building my own 10P desktop BRs a couple of months ago seems perfectly sized to match the baffle step rolloff to the drivers own boost around 470Hz. Is there any way the Pensil 12P corrects the baffle step?
What do you mean by more DDR?
Thanks for helping!
Monty - DDR= one of those troublesome and much argued abbreviation/tweakster jargon terms meaning " Downward Dynamic Range" -when I bother to think about it, I'd describe it as low level / inner detail / harmonics that are not being lost in system noise or distortions.
I think that with the power you have on tap, the extra sensitivity of the 12P is moot, and with respect to Mark, and folks who own and love the 12P, I think either of the 10s would be a better solution. While currently running 10Ps in a 5.1 system, I'd probably give a slight edge to the 10.3s when thoroughly broken in.
I think that with the power you have on tap, the extra sensitivity of the 12P is moot, and with respect to Mark, and folks who own and love the 12P, I think either of the 10s would be a better solution. While currently running 10Ps in a 5.1 system, I'd probably give a slight edge to the 10.3s when thoroughly broken in.
My room is only slightly larger, and I can just about melt the wall paper with my 12p Super Pensils. Big bass transients are easily reproduced, even with 18w/ch.
For a more casual listening experience, the 10p FHXL's (or Pensils) will be more than adequate. They are slightly smoother thru the 6-9kHz region than the 12p, and go a little higher treble wise.
jeff
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Interesting! Even though the effective driver size is smaller, the distortion is lower... I would have thought it would have been the other way around .
Would you say the Pensil 10P goes lower than the Pensil 12.2P?
In terms of damping would it be better to line it with eggshell damping or fill it with stuffing?
.Would you say the Pensil 10P goes lower than the Pensil 12.2P?
In terms of damping would it be better to line it with eggshell damping or fill it with stuffing?
Interesting! Even though the effective driver size is smaller, the distortion is lower... I would have thought it would have been the other way around
Would you say the Pensil 10P goes lower than the Pensil 12.2P?
In terms of damping would it be better to line it with eggshell damping or fill it with stuffing?
Stuffing is everything, when it comes to Pensil 10P. I never figured it out, and gave up. The most enjoyment I got from my Pensil cabinets was smashing them with a sledge hammer. Therefore, I recommend Mr. Brines' design (FWIW).
P.S. Lot's of people seem to love the Pensils, so I suspect the source of the incompatibility is me.
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Don't know. Pensil 10.3 certainly sounds like it goes lower, and the 10p FHXL definitely goes lower.
Fill with the fluffy dacron polyester stuff. I'd stay away from the eggshell foam.
That's a shame. Maybe you should try the FHXL's.
jeff
I might some day. But not before trying the design that I had Scott and Dave work up for me, which is basically a considerably larger version of the dual EL70 microTowers. The official name is "CogiCastle", and it'll have one up-firing driver (A10.2) and one forward-firing driver (A10P) per cabinet. The build has been repeatedly delayed, but some day....
Sorry for the OT, Monty.
That'd be an interesting comparison - having build 2 pairs of Castles so far (r EL70 and CHBW70/ERT26) I'd opine that whichever actually goes lower, there are some things that the FH series do in terms of sound stage spread that I'm not sure the castles can.
re monty's room - that's not a particularly big space and the Pensils for 12P are not tiny, so all things considered, I'd suggest the 10.3 Pensils. I've built a pair of Brine's design, and dozens of Dr Scott's, so I may have a slight bias
re monty's room - that's not a particularly big space and the Pensils for 12P are not tiny, so all things considered, I'd suggest the 10.3 Pensils. I've built a pair of Brine's design, and dozens of Dr Scott's, so I may have a slight bias
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