diyAudio reference speaker project

Many new members come to the forum with the same request; "What speaker should I build for my first project?"

Often they have some preconceived notions of what they want, but almost always the response is to look around for a well tweaked two-way kit. Sure, good advice. But there are as many out there, as design considerations for their own specific use and needs...and budget.

Now, I'm not suggesting there is a perfect speaker project to recommend, but wouldn't it be nice if there was a project many of us could build that was exactly the same for group reference and tweaking? I can imagine this starting an unending argument over choice of drivers, as we already have our own present systems and wants (including price points) for next projects. But it might be worth discussing.

It certainly would seem worthwhile for the newbie, who could get suggestions from others with the same frame of reference, especially considering pricepoint.

To begin an initial project among forumites, might be akin to designing ART by committee, but it might make for lively discussion, and that is valuable in itself. After we've each got our "reference speakers," we might then want to take it to a new level. I'm sure the successive projects of our members with this as a common thread, would show quite the diversity of cabinet styles, tweaks and applications to accommodate differing needs, wants and talents.

But the ability to have a common reference for A/B comparisons, even in different listening rooms, measuring of the drivers and the finished speakers, and using and posting of modeling ideas, as changes of the initial designs are discussed, might be a valuable tool for learning, teaching, and exchanging information.

One of the resident Gurus (I believe it was Planet 10) once said that it's hard to beat the well respected Vifa P13WH-00-08 and the D27TG-45-06 with a single cap for a simple two-way. This might be a good starting project, with many possible applications to explore. Vifa products seem to be available everywhere and this combination wouldn't be too expensive to build a couple of times in differing configurations. (His TLb comes to mind.)

Would anyone be interested in a project like this? Or would those interested, prefer (perhaps) better, pricier drivers, and possibly, the discount a "group buy" might provide?
 
Great idea!

Those who want the Lexus of speakers ( and can afford it ) can see their desired beauties, and those who desire a reliable boring Honda can have their joy. As a newbie, I cannot tell the differnece between a Lada or a Golf of speakers. How about a grading by cost, performance, type of music etc?
 
x. onasis-
I second that the idea of the P13WH-00-08 + suitable tweeter for a simple standmount 2 way.

Perhaps the ability to upgrade whilst reusing parts (at least drivers at least, perhaps even the 2 way XO?) will make it cost effective and allow some upgradability.

What about increasing the cabinet size and adding a larger bass driver (~8" for minimum 40Hz F3 anechoic).

ie.
2 way-
DIYA Reference 1 : P13WH-00-08 & suitable tweeter
3 way-
DIYA Reference 1+ : Suitable 8-10" bass driver as well as the P13WH-00-08 & suitable tweeter.

The active 3 way- just ticket that DIY Audio forumites can be proud of!
:)
 
Nice idea x. onasis (x. for short?). IMO, the bad news is, this will not happen. The good news is that something close to this has already happened with the ProAc 2.5 clone. Read the threads here and read Troels' paper on the subject and if you are like me, you will be stunned at the amount of tweaking done.

And your choice of mid & tweeter brought a smile to my lips, as I posted a while back on the same combo for use in a 3-way and got a bunch of slams about it. I think if you were to use that combo you would have to make the driver mods required.
 
This might be nice for newbies, but:

1. There already are a million designs out there for newbies.

2. Why do people DIY?

2.1. Because of cost aspect

But moreover:

2.2. They can create the sound _they_ want

For instance:
I'd like nothing less than a high efficient 12 incher to produce midbass and bass.

So I wouldn't recommend to any newbie the system you name.. because I know better than that.
 
I'm currently building the Proac 2.5 clone, and althought it's suitable as a 1st project, there are reasons why a small bookshelf two way still makes good sense

a) The ProAc uses expensive drivers. Within the Scanspeak familyt they they are close to being the cheapest Scanspeaks, but they are Scanspeaks nonetheless ($$).

b) large box, requiring large and thick panels

c) strict requirements in damping materials may be difficult to source

I would have loved to be able to build some sort of tried-and-trusted 2 way midsized bookshelf speakers before embarking on the 2.5 clones.

The less tweaking the better- the ability to have a quality reference speaker for A/B comparison...
 
We were all newbies as some stage and to put a variety of projects is a great idea as there is always heaps of requests. Should be a small 2 way with 5" or 6 1/2" woofers and use reasonably priced drivers. Since nobody has, I'll kick off with a design.

The goal was to better my B&W DM303 (which has now been sold) with a speaker at half the cost. The best compliment this speaker got was "the B&W just sounds muffled". Lively, nice tonal balance, slightly forward, surprising bass extension. Betters the B&W DM303 IMHO.

Peerless 810653 Tweeter, Peerless 850488 woofer
Vb=11.3 litres (effective volume), 12.1 litres actual
Fb=65Hz (box tuning), F3=59Hz
58mm dia x 120mm port
180mm wide x 380mm high x 275mm deep, 16mm MDF
Crossover: series with 8.2 ohm resistor, 4.7uF capactitor, 0.47mH inductor (after testing 11 variations)
For series xo see Andy Graddons site (I owe him a great deal of thanks for his spreadsheet and information)
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/gradds/series_cross-overs.htm

The challenge is open to the other Peerless freaks and also you Vifa guys.

Here's the completed item, the inside and the crossover.
 

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We Could Call it the KitKaboodle..

..or Kit'chen Sink, or something less derivitive... hell, I don't know

While I'm hunting every alley of the internet I keep hoping that I will come across more projects, like the Proac 2.5 clone, or Lynn Olsens Ariel, with similarly sufficient interest to actually draw comment from other builders. What would it take then to coalesce the experiences that diy'ers have had, are having, with each and all of the already dozens of kits/projects already established on the web, in a way that would make it easy for all to seek and contribute ideas?
Why not something akin to the Wikipedia Project? Anyone else gone to this site? Go there, click on 'About Wikipedia', then do some searching on your own. It's a remarkable collaboration on ideas whose model would fit beautifully into some adjunct, perhaps, of DiyAudio.com concerned specifically with individual projects. Each named project would be readily accessible by anyone interested in learning about it, and as easily by anyone interested in contributing knowledge and experience to it.
The momentum behind Wikipedia is that it is essentially self compiling. I know nothing really about the webmasters role, so perhaps I'm way off base here as to the practicality of such a thing. But the idea in some shape or form seems ready made for what we're talking about here.
 
If this is really going to happen, I would have to add a few things.

First, I would look at the PL14 instead of the P13. The MG14 from vifa is another option. I think vifa drivers are a good choice since they are available in most countries. Seas drivers seem to be pretty easy to find as well, so the CA15 would be an outstanding choice.

As far as tweeters go, Again, a vifa or seas. I would go with the D27TG35, it seems to have a good reputation.

For the XO, I would shoot for second order slopes, and good phase integration. The latter is paramount for a cohesive speaker.

I’d put it all in a 9L ported box. If it is too big, not enough people will build it.

-Paul Hilgeman
 
If this is really going to happen, I would have to add a few things.

First, I would look at the PL14 instead of the P13. The MG14 from vifa is another option. I think vifa drivers are a good choice since they are available in most countries. Seas drivers seem to be pretty easy to find as well, so the CA15 would be an outstanding choice.

As far as tweeters go, Again, a vifa or seas. I would go with the D27TG35, it seems to have a good reputation.

For the XO, I would shoot for second order slopes, and good phase integration. The latter is paramount for a cohesive speaker.

I’d put it all in a 9L ported box. If it is too big, not enough people will build it.

-Paul Hilgeman
 
I might be wrong, but I feel most newbies want a proven design with all the volume, port sizes, xo details so they can go away and build whatever it is, sit back, turn up the volume and enjoy their creation and feel proud of what they have done.

Most newbies I've spoken to don't want to get heavily involved with theories and design and seem to lack to confidence to do so. They just want to build a set of speakers that will work well and that they can enjoy. Some will be encouranged by this to go deeper into design etc.

Come on you Peerless guys, I'm being out numbered here by the Vifa clan.
 
I am new and agree with rabbitz. I have yet to build my first system because of a lack of confidence. There is so much technical information out there, it is hard to decide where to start.

The last thing I want to do is recieve the parts, and say "OK, now what?". I also think that if the project doesn't go well, I will probably not try again.

A proven, detailed starters project would be very helpfull.
 
Well documented designs already exist for the 'newbie',
the problem is the 'newbies' don't seem to be able to
find them or insist on picking two or more random drivers
and then asking how to get them to work together.

Having another design available won't change the above one bit.

:) sreten.
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2002
Maybe what's required here is a "Loudspeaker Kit" forum where people can share there experiences with others on loudspeaker kits. People could also ask question by starting a thread as they would in the general loudspeaker forum, but others would know that if it's in this forum, the discussion should be limited to kits only. Others could start a thread to showcase their successful kit projects so others could have a selection to choose from with at least some foreknowledge of their possibility of success.
 
Sreten

You are correct about the troubles in finding these projects. I thought for sure that when I became interested in this subject, there would be an unbelievable amount of projects available. There may be, but they are hard to find. And, when you do find them, they tend to not be detailed or easy enough to understand for someone just starting out.

As much reading and time I have spent researching, I still have no idea on how to read a crossover diagram, and then wire it. There is definetely not much "break it down" info out there.
 
Information on anything is notoriously difficult to find - on any site - not just to do with audio. Before anyone shoots me down in flames hear me out.

The oft used argument is that people should search. This is true (and i always do myself - ive got to be honest and say that in electronics/software ive learnt most by searching and reading and using my brain - i must admit there are many lazy people who dont search - but there are plenty who do). But how is a newbie supposed to know precisely what they are searching for? They are a newbie. Hence they probably dont know what the theil-small parameters are let alone what the mean. Often a schematic can be found - but often a schematic that requires understanding of 'obvious things'. (this is a basic human fault actually) Something more complete for the newbie would be a good idea. Unfortunately most people who are capable of doing something like this generally have neither the time or the inclination. I would if i knew enough!
 
I'm relatively new to audio myself. Last fall, the student chapter of IEEE at the University of Illinois put on a speaker building workshop which we felt was an overwhelming success. The speaker we used was the Dayton BR-1 2-Way monitor system. We chose this system because the kit is very simple to assemble and was easily available from parts express. We broke the workshop into two parts: a one hour theory session on friday afternoon followed by a build day the following Saturday. The Dayton kit included detailed instructions for construction and required relatively few specialized tools except a soldering iron and optionally a crimper. The instructions covered a great deal of theory in a simple manner starting from explaining the response curves of the drivers and how that related to the implementation of the crossover. Many of our participants started out with absolutely no knowledge of audio outside of plugging speakers into the back of their computers but by the end everybody had a good understanding of setting up a component stereo system and also walked out with a great sounding pair of speakers to boot! The only drawback to this kit was the crimped on cable connectors for internally wiring the drivers to the crossover were difficult to make a solid connection but we solved this by soldering the wires to the crimped connectors and hot-glueing on top of that for further stability. I'd recommend this kit to anyone starting out who wants to get their feet wet in DIY audio without spending a great deal of money.

cheers,
-peter
 
Come-on, we've all been there, and we've all made it through.

The people that not get through aren't interested enough. (also goes for many other examples next to audio)

What, in my opinion, would be an optimilisation, is fixing up the links section of diyaudio.com, because a lot are broken, and a lot more interesting exist.

For instance, very nice links:
http://www.speakerworld.de/ (endless rabbithole of diy projects)
http://www.kingston.neostrada.pl/speakerbuilding.html
 
First-Time Project

What a perfectly relevant thread for me. OK, I'm ready to try my first project. The extent of useful education I've had on the subject is Physical Science in 9th grade. That was 18 years ago. So I'm worried. Worried first and foremost that I'm going to plug the finished product in to my system and blow something up.
But I'm smart enough to know I'm ignorant about this and I need to follow someone else's directions to the letter. So I'm gonna try this despite the fear.

I'm looking around the net...let's start small, doing some stand-mounted speakers for mostly HT use. I have decent equipment driving them, and I want them to sound good. Rather good, in fact, because I could go buy any number of decent-sounding speakers for 200 bucks a pair. No, I want them to be better than that. But whose design to use? There are tons out there, by people and companies I've never heard of. What do I do if I finish the project, plug in the speaker, and through no fault of my own I just don't like the sound of the speaker? I guess I could try to sell them, but I'd probably have to take a loss. I don't think many of us can afford to do too many projects where we take a loss.

I'm considering trying the newby-friendly Dayton kit mentioned earlier in this thread, but will that kit significantly outperform the countless $200/pr speakers out there? Sure, ultimately that will be determined by the listener, but I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this kit.

Oh, and since I will eventually try to build some very nice floorstanders to mate with my McCormack gear (complete with revisions from Mr. McCormack), I'd love to get input on what kits would mate well with the RLD-1 pre and DNA .5 amp. Thanks again!
Thanks for starting this thread -