point to point
This is not my work! I found it in a newsgroup. My one off, point to point experiments tend to be more three dimensional. I nominate the picture on page 9 of the following link for the " I was in a hurry to prototype it" award. I have done some equally frightening test circuits for telecom. I built a couple with surface mount parts with a microscope! The solder joints looked like huge rocks under the scope. I also was forced to swear in three languages during the ordeal..... (English, German, and French.)
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/a40.pdf (page 9)
H.H.
P.S. I hear that the green clip leads sound the best.
This is not my work! I found it in a newsgroup. My one off, point to point experiments tend to be more three dimensional. I nominate the picture on page 9 of the following link for the " I was in a hurry to prototype it" award. I have done some equally frightening test circuits for telecom. I built a couple with surface mount parts with a microscope! The solder joints looked like huge rocks under the scope. I also was forced to swear in three languages during the ordeal..... (English, German, and French.)
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/a40.pdf (page 9)
H.H.
P.S. I hear that the green clip leads sound the best.
Harry,
from own experience i would dare to state that p2p wiring is the ony way to go sonically.
When i was a newbie, i always was afraid of p2p wirings with unpredicable stray capacitances, layout, intra-circuit crosstalk, everything unpredictable, the guy succeding in it was either a master or very lucky or both.
Today i understand a bit more about the subject, i know that stray capacitances of a p2p wiring are much lower and i use gridstoppers anyway and no neg.feedback if possible, so why bother about HF oscillations? And crosstalk is much more probable on PCBs , in a 3D p2p wiring hardly 2 wires are parallel to induce crosstalk. With p2p, you can keep short those wires you want to be short.
I am quite convinced that 1st try'n'success probability for any of us is much higher with a p2p wiring than with a PCB layout.
Oops, forgot, p2p sounds better. Much better.
from own experience i would dare to state that p2p wiring is the ony way to go sonically.
When i was a newbie, i always was afraid of p2p wirings with unpredicable stray capacitances, layout, intra-circuit crosstalk, everything unpredictable, the guy succeding in it was either a master or very lucky or both.
Today i understand a bit more about the subject, i know that stray capacitances of a p2p wiring are much lower and i use gridstoppers anyway and no neg.feedback if possible, so why bother about HF oscillations? And crosstalk is much more probable on PCBs , in a 3D p2p wiring hardly 2 wires are parallel to induce crosstalk. With p2p, you can keep short those wires you want to be short.
I am quite convinced that 1st try'n'success probability for any of us is much higher with a p2p wiring than with a PCB layout.
Oops, forgot, p2p sounds better. Much better.
Harry, I can relate to 3-dimensional point-to-point wiring. I like to build small modules and hook them together. Projects are more compact that way. I wouldn't want to make printed circuit boards for very many different circuits. I like to solder parts to IC sockets to make the modules. It doesn't produce the most aesthetic results, but it makes prototyping easier.
Missing the point
You guys are "preaching to the choir" (the already converted for those of you in Rio Linda) I could agree more with you. Unless you start bundeling the wires together together you will get about 1/4 of the stray capacitance of a PC board on FR-4 and about half of that of even a teflon board and can use exotic conductors. I did a digital audio circuit with very short traces to an RF type opamp once and found out that it sounded much better to bend the feedback pins up and solder the resitor on top of the opamp! This was a difference of about 2pF! I ended up building several hundred boards this way. I have talked to several designers of audio equipment that complained how sensitive the sound a circuit is to the PCB layout. I love the nice looking layouts with nice even rows of resistors and a four layer board to tie them together. Looks nice, sounds bad. Grid and gate resistors are a great idea but mount them as close to the gate(fet) or grid(tube) as possible. I am getting ready to do my first p2p silver wire circuit. If you need a ground plane, you can use unetched PCB material and wire above it. I have built very fast digital circuits like this for prototype and they worked fine.
My Guru for layout considerations is at link below. I went to one of his seminars once and never looked at a circuit the same way again. Useful for analog circuits also.
http://www.sigcon.com
H.H.
You guys are "preaching to the choir" (the already converted for those of you in Rio Linda) I could agree more with you. Unless you start bundeling the wires together together you will get about 1/4 of the stray capacitance of a PC board on FR-4 and about half of that of even a teflon board and can use exotic conductors. I did a digital audio circuit with very short traces to an RF type opamp once and found out that it sounded much better to bend the feedback pins up and solder the resitor on top of the opamp! This was a difference of about 2pF! I ended up building several hundred boards this way. I have talked to several designers of audio equipment that complained how sensitive the sound a circuit is to the PCB layout. I love the nice looking layouts with nice even rows of resistors and a four layer board to tie them together. Looks nice, sounds bad. Grid and gate resistors are a great idea but mount them as close to the gate(fet) or grid(tube) as possible. I am getting ready to do my first p2p silver wire circuit. If you need a ground plane, you can use unetched PCB material and wire above it. I have built very fast digital circuits like this for prototype and they worked fine.
My Guru for layout considerations is at link below. I went to one of his seminars once and never looked at a circuit the same way again. Useful for analog circuits also.
http://www.sigcon.com
H.H.
wire direction
Directional characteristic of wire needs to be taken into account - I once made non directional interconnects by by connecting wire from source active terminal to load active terminal and then back again - ditto earth connection - ditto other channel - this DRAMATICALLY improved depth imaging and overall cleanness.
Also built CDP 3 dimensional D/A convertor output stage using P-P technique.
All connections were direct component P-P except for 2 wires (10mm) connecting DA convertor L&R ouputs to first filter stage.
I tried 6 different types of wire and got 6 subtlely different sounds, and another 6 sounds when I reversed the direction of these 2 short connecting wires!
Replacing these connections with 2 wires back to back cured the directional characteristic and gave the biggest, wildest sounding CD player I have ever heard - and I have heard (and repaired - thousands) a lot of them.
Years later I met a retired nuclear physicist (worked on Marshall Islands and Maralinga Projects), and discussed these and other findings with him and got the response "Yes, expect wire to be directional - reason is copper ingot takes up local field magnetic
alignment during manufacture and subsequent wire drawing operations"
Past Hi-Fi discussions regarding wire directionality truth or myth are hereby debunked!
Maybe this helps, maybe this adds more problems, maybe this opens another discussion subject.
Now ask me about "Tone Stone".
Directional characteristic of wire needs to be taken into account - I once made non directional interconnects by by connecting wire from source active terminal to load active terminal and then back again - ditto earth connection - ditto other channel - this DRAMATICALLY improved depth imaging and overall cleanness.
Also built CDP 3 dimensional D/A convertor output stage using P-P technique.
All connections were direct component P-P except for 2 wires (10mm) connecting DA convertor L&R ouputs to first filter stage.
I tried 6 different types of wire and got 6 subtlely different sounds, and another 6 sounds when I reversed the direction of these 2 short connecting wires!
Replacing these connections with 2 wires back to back cured the directional characteristic and gave the biggest, wildest sounding CD player I have ever heard - and I have heard (and repaired - thousands) a lot of them.
Years later I met a retired nuclear physicist (worked on Marshall Islands and Maralinga Projects), and discussed these and other findings with him and got the response "Yes, expect wire to be directional - reason is copper ingot takes up local field magnetic
alignment during manufacture and subsequent wire drawing operations"
Past Hi-Fi discussions regarding wire directionality truth or myth are hereby debunked!
Maybe this helps, maybe this adds more problems, maybe this opens another discussion subject.
Now ask me about "Tone Stone".
JoeBob, I wire low current circuitry with single srand 24 guage or less hookup or magnet wire. When magnet wire is twisted together, the conductors are very close together, improving noise munity for interconnects. For most connections in the modules I simply use the part leads themselves as jumpers. For higher currents, I use standard stranded hookup wire. For mounting modules to the copper side of a circuit board to hold them in place I use solid magnet wire with a thickness of 20 guage or more.
I have done things like fastening filter caps to a chasis and then using them as a foundation for mounting modules. Any componet that is large enough, including heatsinks and transformers works this way.
I have done things like fastening filter caps to a chasis and then using them as a foundation for mounting modules. Any componet that is large enough, including heatsinks and transformers works this way.
Re: wire direction
#1. This physicist was FIRED, not retired.
#2. Just because one scientist said something and one guy believed him doesn't debunk "myth".
#3. Even if wire was directional, music signals are AC. Electrons have to flow "back and forth", anyway. Why would going "forth and back" sound different anyway? Oh yeah, I forgot that a retired nuclear physist told me about "absolute phase". Another myth debunked...
mrfeedback said:
#1. This physicist was FIRED, not retired.
#2. Just because one scientist said something and one guy believed him doesn't debunk "myth".
#3. Even if wire was directional, music signals are AC. Electrons have to flow "back and forth", anyway. Why would going "forth and back" sound different anyway? Oh yeah, I forgot that a retired nuclear physist told me about "absolute phase". Another myth debunked...
Re: Missing the point
no, not missing the point, just challenging you a bit and then you come out with specific knowledge where i only had a strong hunch before .. and then you hand out such hints
.... guess i will continue to poke you now and then
Scanned/crossread through your Guru's articles, thank you very much!
no, not missing the point, just challenging you a bit and then you come out with specific knowledge where i only had a strong hunch before .. and then you hand out such hints
.... guess i will continue to poke you now and then Scanned/crossread through your Guru's articles, thank you very much!
Hi fellas, thought I might get flamed- anyway
Hello, Seangoesbonk,
"1. This physicist was FIRED, not retired. "
- More likely retrenched - no atom bombs to test anymore. Very interesting old man - 77yo when I met him 5 years ago.
"#2. Just because one scientist said something and one guy believed him doesn't debunk "myth". "
- Us two guys came to the same knowlege independently (opposite sides of the country) and this then years later led us to discuss such observations in person.
"#3. Even if wire was directional, music signals are AC."
- Yes, but because of high pass filtering.
"Electrons have to flow "back and forth", anyway."
- Electrons are influenced by applied and conductor internally generated electric field and magnetic fields, in my text books and experience.
"Why would going "forth and back" sound different anyway?"
- Same answer - electrons are influenced by applied and conductor internally generated electric field and magnetic fields,
= non linearities = change in fourier transform.
"Oh yeah, I forgot that a retired nuclear physist told me about "absolute phase"."
- Yeah, cool retired nuclear physists have all the time in the world to talk about all sorts of interesting things, don't they.
Correct term is Absolute Polarity - AP is mission critical for correct reproduction - no ifs, no buts.
Another myth debunked... "
- Remember, just because YOU can't taste, smell, touch, see, or hear it, doesn't mean that it is not there.
- Go on fill in your profile page. Catcha next time.
Hello Leroy
"seangoesbonk is right: wire is NOT directional.
I once visited a workshop where a cable manufacturer proved that there was no difference if the interlink was connected one way or the other." " "#2. Just because one scientist said something and one guy believed him doesn't debunk "myth". " "
- Sorry, not valid experimental conditions - needs to be optimised quiet home listening environment on seriously good system and good setup.
Need 2 identical interconnects - Try swapping the direction of one channel interconnect, and tell me that the central stereo image shifts sideways or smears and the balance control don't fix it!
This an old high-end hi-fi shop easily shown demo.
- Go on, fill in your profile page. Catcha next time.
Guys, these effects are fine and subtle, but when summed correctly add up to a replay system that just sits just amazingly right, and clean, and loud, and strong, and instant.
Speakers have to be clean, high power, and acoustic phase and electrical impedence relatively flat.
Under these conditions, surround effects happen.
Replaying rainforest/thunder storm natural sound recording had friends looking over the sides of my sofa for surround cabinets.
Also Monterey Jazz Live cd, had vocalist talking central between loudspeakers , and the drummer talking from behind the curtains.
Quote - " Don't criticise what you don't understand "
from, Australian, Dave Warner and the Suburbs song - http://www.davewarner.com.au/convict.html
Seeyez both, and all.
Profile says I am neophyte, but i've been fixing and operating audio stuff for 25+ years - maybe that fills yers in a bit.
Hello, Seangoesbonk,
"1. This physicist was FIRED, not retired. "
- More likely retrenched - no atom bombs to test anymore. Very interesting old man - 77yo when I met him 5 years ago.
"#2. Just because one scientist said something and one guy believed him doesn't debunk "myth". "
- Us two guys came to the same knowlege independently (opposite sides of the country) and this then years later led us to discuss such observations in person.
"#3. Even if wire was directional, music signals are AC."
- Yes, but because of high pass filtering.
"Electrons have to flow "back and forth", anyway."
- Electrons are influenced by applied and conductor internally generated electric field and magnetic fields, in my text books and experience.
"Why would going "forth and back" sound different anyway?"
- Same answer - electrons are influenced by applied and conductor internally generated electric field and magnetic fields,
= non linearities = change in fourier transform.
"Oh yeah, I forgot that a retired nuclear physist told me about "absolute phase"."
- Yeah, cool retired nuclear physists have all the time in the world to talk about all sorts of interesting things, don't they.
Correct term is Absolute Polarity - AP is mission critical for correct reproduction - no ifs, no buts.
Another myth debunked... "
- Remember, just because YOU can't taste, smell, touch, see, or hear it, doesn't mean that it is not there.
- Go on fill in your profile page. Catcha next time.
Hello Leroy
"seangoesbonk is right: wire is NOT directional.
I once visited a workshop where a cable manufacturer proved that there was no difference if the interlink was connected one way or the other." " "#2. Just because one scientist said something and one guy believed him doesn't debunk "myth". " "
- Sorry, not valid experimental conditions - needs to be optimised quiet home listening environment on seriously good system and good setup.
Need 2 identical interconnects - Try swapping the direction of one channel interconnect, and tell me that the central stereo image shifts sideways or smears and the balance control don't fix it!
This an old high-end hi-fi shop easily shown demo.
- Go on, fill in your profile page. Catcha next time.
Guys, these effects are fine and subtle, but when summed correctly add up to a replay system that just sits just amazingly right, and clean, and loud, and strong, and instant.
Speakers have to be clean, high power, and acoustic phase and electrical impedence relatively flat.
Under these conditions, surround effects happen.
Replaying rainforest/thunder storm natural sound recording had friends looking over the sides of my sofa for surround cabinets.
Also Monterey Jazz Live cd, had vocalist talking central between loudspeakers , and the drummer talking from behind the curtains.
Quote - " Don't criticise what you don't understand "
from, Australian, Dave Warner and the Suburbs song - http://www.davewarner.com.au/convict.html
Seeyez both, and all.
Profile says I am neophyte, but i've been fixing and operating audio stuff for 25+ years - maybe that fills yers in a bit.
direction detection
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/search.pl
I have heard directionality in wire before. It takes a really good system to hear it. Music is an asymmetric signal and absolute polarity is audible on many recordings. Finished cable assemblies are often directional due to the way the sheild is grounded on one end only. Digital cables are perhaps the most directional for reasons beyond the scope the scope of this forum ( Time domain reflectrometry anyone?) Non-polar film caps are directional too!They are often marked for this even for non audio applications (outer foil anyone?) And then the is break in, microphonics, cryogenic treatment....... Oh ya, the one wire designer I know that takes this stuff the most seriously used to a nuclear power engineer. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye, even to a degreed engineer.
H.H.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/search.pl
I have heard directionality in wire before. It takes a really good system to hear it. Music is an asymmetric signal and absolute polarity is audible on many recordings. Finished cable assemblies are often directional due to the way the sheild is grounded on one end only. Digital cables are perhaps the most directional for reasons beyond the scope the scope of this forum ( Time domain reflectrometry anyone?) Non-polar film caps are directional too!They are often marked for this even for non audio applications (outer foil anyone?) And then the is break in, microphonics, cryogenic treatment....... Oh ya, the one wire designer I know that takes this stuff the most seriously used to a nuclear power engineer. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye, even to a degreed engineer.
H.H.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I'm not saying that cables are directional or that they are not but as the days go by we learn more and more about things. Some say that directionality can not be measured, even in this thread, and some say it can. Anybody know about Ben Duncan research? I know of the high volume no BS cables from Supra (cheap and good) and that they claim to be able to prove it (tru or not...):
Check the news section at http://www.jenving.com/
They claim to be able to measure it...
From school I remember about crystals in metals and the junctions between the crystals. I today find it hard to believe that cables are not directional and the famous Mr Pass (although not in this context) discusses the singel-ended nature of sound. Would it be totally unlikely that this could apply for AC passing through (and back...) our cables and then later translating to our singel-ended-in-nature sound waves?
I can not say yes or no but I am not ruling it out...and I am sorry for keeping up the off-topic part of the thread.
/UrSv
Check the news section at http://www.jenving.com/
They claim to be able to measure it...
From school I remember about crystals in metals and the junctions between the crystals. I today find it hard to believe that cables are not directional and the famous Mr Pass (although not in this context) discusses the singel-ended nature of sound. Would it be totally unlikely that this could apply for AC passing through (and back...) our cables and then later translating to our singel-ended-in-nature sound waves?
I can not say yes or no but I am not ruling it out...and I am sorry for keeping up the off-topic part of the thread.
/UrSv
Re: Re: wire direction
Hello MrFeedback and seangoesbonk,
may i express my utter unease with what i read here?
This is a friendly, helpful, constructive, mutually respectful place, atleast if not two fellows try to scratch out each others eyes.
MrFeedback,
my initial response to your post was "ouch, this smells like smoke". Although i can second your experience in cases (not in all cases) i found your generalizations hard to swallow and sensed your tone as provocative, telegram style, not finding it necessary to mention environmental details. In your later reply post i read
Later you defend yourself and your points and that is your good right, but heck, have you to do it with teacher attitude and erected forefinger? Pours more oil in the flames (and we do not yet know what is coming).
To make it clear, i do not complain about what you said, but about how you said it.
Then, to your points,
from my listening experience i second that some wires/cables show directionality effects, but some do not. I agree that differences are subtle and require a high detail resolution system.
I absolutely second that absolute polarity is vital to pace, rhythm and timing, to musicality and µdynamics. No wonder, music waveforms are often assymmetrical and as the speaker, the eardrum is assymetrically suspended. I got this demoed on Allen Wright's RealTimePreamp which has an absolute polarity switch and i came to same polarity preferences as Allen independently; it took me 20 minutes to learn to notice the differences . Once you had it, you never want to miss it again. It has to be found out for every recording, but after a short while it is as easy as breathing. I took the point so serious that i designed an absolute polarity switch into my preamp.
Then to nuclear physicists, those guys live in a strange world where the simple physical models we made to "understand" the world are too simple, are failing very often, much more often than in our engineers world. I would not dare to question such a statement, allthemore as no ego or interest disturbs the situation, simply an old experienced fellow reports coincident observations from a completely different field. I learned to listen to such reports. In this case i find the observation of the nuclear physicist very interesting. And how his job ended has nothing to do with his attitude or his competence. What if the hypothetical nuclear physicist was fired because he refused to follow his bosses stupid order?
Seangoesbonk,
Don't you think your remarks can appear derogatory, disrespectful? Downtalking? Questioning the made statements to be true?
So they appear to me. I faintly remember, they do not the 1st time. Methinks the way you responded here hurts the spirit of this forum. I would appreciate it very much if you could express your opinion in a way that lets the adressee survive. A bit of mutual respect would not hurt at all. Live and let live!
BTW, I always wonder why refusing to acknowledge other person's experiences happens with so much more fervor than accepting to acknowledge them. Even more if the refusal observably comes from considering something impossible.
Limits of what is possible are the limits of imagination. This means that you cannot succeed in what you consider to be impossible, you cannot even try. This means than what you consider impossible you cannot accept even it is is demoed in front of you. This means you stay on known ground and never explore. This means you do not believe a person who has an experience you consider impossible but you do not have.
If i read such stuff like MrFeedback reported, and cannot follow for the moment, i always wonder what it is i am missing, on which detail i should focus or do my ears or my system fail? I never would downtalk another person's experience or claim it is bogus, particularly if i have no experience on this field.
This is a happy place, folks, let's keep it that way, lets learn form each other, let's be friendly with each other. Who wants to flame around can find enough places in the web to do that, many places and quire big ones have nearly nothing but ego presentation and flaming around.
Hello MrFeedback and seangoesbonk,
may i express my utter unease with what i read here?
This is a friendly, helpful, constructive, mutually respectful place, atleast if not two fellows try to scratch out each others eyes.
MrFeedback,
my initial response to your post was "ouch, this smells like smoke". Although i can second your experience in cases (not in all cases) i found your generalizations hard to swallow and sensed your tone as provocative, telegram style, not finding it necessary to mention environmental details. In your later reply post i read
. Honestly, if i trap myself in typing such or apologizing in advance for what i write, i do not post at all. A good sign something is terribly wrong with my attitude, a good warning not to post. I don't want cause flames.
Later you defend yourself and your points and that is your good right, but heck, have you to do it with teacher attitude and erected forefinger? Pours more oil in the flames (and we do not yet know what is coming).
To make it clear, i do not complain about what you said, but about how you said it.
Then, to your points,
from my listening experience i second that some wires/cables show directionality effects, but some do not. I agree that differences are subtle and require a high detail resolution system.
I absolutely second that absolute polarity is vital to pace, rhythm and timing, to musicality and µdynamics. No wonder, music waveforms are often assymmetrical and as the speaker, the eardrum is assymetrically suspended. I got this demoed on Allen Wright's RealTimePreamp which has an absolute polarity switch and i came to same polarity preferences as Allen independently; it took me 20 minutes to learn to notice the differences . Once you had it, you never want to miss it again. It has to be found out for every recording, but after a short while it is as easy as breathing. I took the point so serious that i designed an absolute polarity switch into my preamp.
Then to nuclear physicists, those guys live in a strange world where the simple physical models we made to "understand" the world are too simple, are failing very often, much more often than in our engineers world. I would not dare to question such a statement, allthemore as no ego or interest disturbs the situation, simply an old experienced fellow reports coincident observations from a completely different field. I learned to listen to such reports. In this case i find the observation of the nuclear physicist very interesting. And how his job ended has nothing to do with his attitude or his competence. What if the hypothetical nuclear physicist was fired because he refused to follow his bosses stupid order?
Seangoesbonk,
Don't you think your remarks can appear derogatory, disrespectful? Downtalking? Questioning the made statements to be true?
So they appear to me. I faintly remember, they do not the 1st time. Methinks the way you responded here hurts the spirit of this forum. I would appreciate it very much if you could express your opinion in a way that lets the adressee survive. A bit of mutual respect would not hurt at all. Live and let live!
BTW, I always wonder why refusing to acknowledge other person's experiences happens with so much more fervor than accepting to acknowledge them. Even more if the refusal observably comes from considering something impossible.
Limits of what is possible are the limits of imagination. This means that you cannot succeed in what you consider to be impossible, you cannot even try. This means than what you consider impossible you cannot accept even it is is demoed in front of you. This means you stay on known ground and never explore. This means you do not believe a person who has an experience you consider impossible but you do not have.
If i read such stuff like MrFeedback reported, and cannot follow for the moment, i always wonder what it is i am missing, on which detail i should focus or do my ears or my system fail? I never would downtalk another person's experience or claim it is bogus, particularly if i have no experience on this field.
This is a happy place, folks, let's keep it that way, lets learn form each other, let's be friendly with each other. Who wants to flame around can find enough places in the web to do that, many places and quire big ones have nearly nothing but ego presentation and flaming around.